magneti

completely wrong. i never said bbs should not make quality wheels. i said its obvious they need to find a middle ground if their target customer's car is worth less than the wheels. the same way mercedes does not target a low-end consumer for cars.

clearly bbs targets the upper echelon customer who wants quality above cost. if that fails them clearly they need to readjust their strategy. thats not even up for debate.


copying a design if its hyundai copying a body style of a bmw does not make it a bmw. nor are they to blame if bmw starts losing market share. its on them.


consumers dont find excuses for anything. they put their money where they feel is best value. if they are wasting their money on crap products where there is negative value, they will no longer support the conmpany and the market will correct itself. and lesser company will fail.

see thats what makes america the greatest economy on earth. its self correcting. we dont need govt intervention or anyone telling us who or where to buy something. it dictates itself. (or at least thats how it used to work)

anyone who thinks otherwise needs to understand supply and demand. thats all it is regardless what we feel toward a given company.

magneti

right, exactly. so the niche market of bbs is not affected. the person looking to spend 1400 on wheels was never buying bbs in the first place. if bbs needs the 1400 dollar customer to remain afloat they need to decide that. apparently the market for highest quality wheels over value does not exist. or at least theres not a big enough demand.

the asa is great for the consumer. it happens in every single market and that competition is healthy. someone produces lower production costs with quality products for a lesser price which is what consumers want.

the fact people feel loyalty to a company is common though it doesnt change the free market. the best product wins and the judge is the consumer. everything else is semantics.

magneti

the market will decide what is best. if people see their so-called knockoffs fail they will buy something else.

if they last half the life they expect maybe they are so inexpensive they can buy 4 more sets and still be less than the die forged wheels. or maybe they will buy die forged wheels next.

but by the looks of things, people are finding more value in a lower priced wheel. but loyal bbs customers are having a hard time seeing this.

if theres less incentive to make something its because theres not enough demand for it. the money will dictate whats most important and the best companies will be left standing. if bbs wants to charge 30k for one wheel claiming superior quality and design thats their prerogative but its not smart business

and if the knockoff company wants to sell their wheels 3 for a dollar and can do so enough to break even thats fine too.

both can exist if there are markets for each. neither is to blame if the other fails. the management of each need to determine market share for their products and decide their most effective way way to make a profit.

not first make a product then deciding if anyone wants it, thats not how business works.

ClearP

If BBS go into making crappy wheels, or wheels not at their normal standards, they will start turning away customers, it's the same reason why when Toyota came to US, they started the Lexus brand to try something different that wont directly impact their brand, if you want them to make wheels at the same standard that they make their high end wheels, why would you expect it to be any cheaper?

If they spend less on development and design, yes they can offer wheels at a cheaper cost, but that's like asking brembo to make crappy brakes, some companies hold themselves to a higher standard and I congratulate BBS for doing so, it's the exact reason why so far on this topic, no one has complained about BBS's quality, just their price.

Also don't kid yourself about what fragile economy US currently has. I agree with you on the basics of supply and demand, but that's the very reason why US economy is going down the drain, because all of the supplies are from China, while demands for cheap products from US. How does the Chinese maintain such cheap price for their products? By not having to develop these products while keeping the production cost down. This is not an argument, it's a fact, this is the number 1 topic savvy inventors wish Obama converse with the Chinese president when he was visiting recently. China's loopholes in their laws regarding this issue is making a hugh impact on the US. Anyone with some basic understanding about the economy of US will tell you that our economy is not a healthy economy. So again, don't kid yourself, we're getting our butt kicked.

ClearP

In your argument, companies should make great, reliable product at a cheap cost.

magneti

If the market demanded strictly high quality wheels without regards to price then they wouldnt be filing for bankruptcy. Again, I never said they need to make crappy wheels. I said they need to do something different. Whether thats less advertising or more advertising. Or lowering production costs. Or increasing capacity.

Something they need to figure out because people are finding better value elsewhere. How they remarket themselves is something they need to figure out. Not the consumer.


If Brembo is making money then they have found the mix of quality and price. If they begin to lose money they will have to adapt to the current conditions and find a way to lower their price or be happy with the niche market that wants high end brakes. Or else go under like BBS.

by economy I was implying the free market system which is the greatest on earth. Always has been.

the problems arise when government interferes with the free hand that normally guides it. thats why we are getting our butts kicked. the system itself is fine. People who get their mitts in it that dont belong are the problem. but thats another discussion entirely.


Im not saying anything. Thats for the market to decide and let the companies figure out where the demand lies.

Id guess theres a middle ground for a good quality, reasonably priced product.

At the upper end of the spectrum, theres usually a demand but its usually much smaller since most people have limited disposable income.

same way some people put autozone parts on their cars instead of oem. Are the consumers betraying the OEM manufacturers for using the knockoff products? are they forcing the OEM mfrs to go out of business where we can no longer find OEM products? of course not. Because theres demand for both. If an OEM timing belt was 5,000 dollars everyone would buy non-oem. Thats simply whats happening with BBS.

Consumers are making a choice based on their discretionary income and their perceived value. The replacement is probably not as good but its suitable for their needs. More options are always best for the consumer. its a personal choice either way and for no one else to decide.

the companies that figure it out, survive. the ones that dont, fold. its almost that simple.

LexFather

Just b/c the market decides what to buy doesn't make it better. If I have to go against the market so be it. The market is full of uneducated sheep so its not exactly confidence inspiring.

Ethics has a lot to do with it. I'm not talking about the guy that DOESN'T KNOW they are knock-offs. I'm talking about people actively selling and buying knock-offs knowing they are EXACT REPLICAS of the original down to center-caps.

In Germany wheel/aftermarket guidelines are so strict a company cannot get away with that crap. Here its damn near "anything goes".

Bingo.

As I've gotten older I do the research and choose to spend my money wisely. I rarely go to Wal-Mart now for example. I research trade laws between countries. Its a lot of work but it makes me feel better that I might have paid more but the purchase aligns with my ethics.

Again without their income statement/balance sheet etc we don't know whats going wrong. We do know BBS makes OEM wheels for many brands, including Toyota, Lexus, Ferrari, etc etc.

Again if people want to buy/sell knock-offs that is fine. Not going to crucify them. That said I stand by not supporting knock-offs. Its bigger than wheels, watches, clothes, etc.

magneti

So people are uneducated because they cannot afford to buy 5k wheels and choose to get something they perceive better value? maybe you can chip in and help them out to choose what you see as best for them. american way be damned.

so is it unethical when you buy a non-oem part?

Ethics only come into play if you can afford an alternative and its highly subjective.


Government intervention is almost never the solution. Theres a reason the free market works best and always will.





rarely go to walmart? So you do support a company that practices child labor yet are worried about replicating a wheel in the same argument. Like i said, its highly subjective to apply ethics to business.

and yet they still cant survive with corporate contracts. New management may be in order. Or maybe its too late.


Everyone supports knockoffs in some form or fashion. Its just some choose to apply ethics when its something they deem as more personal. Otherwise its overlooked or just not researched.

ClearP

Bottom line is, it is an ethic discussion, whether you like to agree to it or not, one day when you're rich and hold a dozen of patents and copyrights and people are just taking your hard work and replicating it at only the production cost driving out your business, you might have a different view at things, for now, carry on with whatever you agree with.

Your argument with OEM and aftermarket parts are totally different than what we're discussing so I wont get into that. As for quality vs price and all that, I'll say it again, there's a reason why BBS are superior in durability, appearance, and lightness, it reflects on their design and the material they use, how do you bring down production cost when the material you use and the technology required to produce these wheels (Forged, etc) are at such high standards? Maybe pixie dust will help.

I'm not saying BBS is doing everything right, I'm sure there are people getting too fat for their own good in the company with the pay they are getting, but I'm sure replicas don't help at all.

As for the economy, the GDP numbers don't lie, again, don't kid yourself, we are not the supplier, if we don't even have the peace of mind that our hard work are protected, and our own people agree with the cost associated with designing and manufacturing of a good product, then very soon we will not be the innovators either.

IS-SV

Bottom line is they ran the company into bankruptcy (again). Many companies have survived selling premium quality automotive products at premium prices right through a very deep recession.

Stormforge

i'm talking about personal ethics here (not corporations) - you, me, the other guys around us. we all know that corporations are only interested in the bottom line, so ethics is tossed out the window as long as its not illegal. it is personal ethics that guides who we are that i am referring to.


you are taking my comments out of context. but yes, to a certain extent you are correct. there are people out there (vegans) that do refuse to eat meat for exactly the reason you mentioned. so for these people, their ethics guide them to avoid consuming any meat or meat by-products. my ethics do not prohibit me from eating meat, so i do eat meat when it's available. there's nothing wrong with that, because i don't believe everything that is said about animal cruelty, just like you don't believe that buying knockoffs are wrong. we both have different ethics on the topic, depending on the point of view of how we look at it.


yes, there are people out there that do apply this type of ethics to themselves. note that i mentioned it's personal ethics, not group ethics, not world ethics. personal ethics means (imho) what an individual personally believes in. your ethics and my ethics will be totally different; each individual person's ethics will be different when compared to others, although there may be similiarities or overlaps. and on the extreme case, complete polar opposites. some people will feel very strongly about child labour laws, some don't give a toot. some will rant and rave against people who wear fur; others don't give a damn. it is ethics that make us who we are and what we decide and choose.


i see your point, but i also believe that it's easy to know and judge one's own actions and beliefs. for example, we were all taught by our parents right from wrong: helping others in need is good and hurting others is bad. through this we develop a conscience, and it tells us what is right and what is wrong. for example, if a guy steals a pair of sneakers from a store, are you saying the thief doesn't know it's wrong? sure he does, but his ethics (or lack of one) tells him it doesn't matter or that he doesn't care because he needs that crack fix in order to get high.

true, choice is not stealing nor unethical. but if a person knows that the product he purchases supports criminal activity, infringes on copyrights, does harm to others (whether that be the manufacturer or someone else), etc and it bothers his conscience, it is not wrong for that person to refuse to buy knockoffs based on ethics. if a person has no problem buying knockoffs, then his ethics (or lack of one) determines his purchase.



what you are saying is that the majority of people choose to ignore their ethics (ie: listen to the devil on the right shoulder and ignore the angel on the left). which is really an indictment of what our society has become, where if you convince yourself that stealing is not wrong, then it surely isn't so.


i don't disagree with you on this point, but should the knockoff wheel be "exactly" the same down to the center cap? why can't the knockoff company copy the wheel and make it just a little bit different (even slapping on their own brand name would be different enough than just pretending its the real mccoy)?

magneti

not necessarily. the issue here is knockoff companies and if we deem their ethics as questionable then we should not support them. they go hand in hand in this matter. Its just we dont apply them to everything.

thats fair. everyones personal beliefs are their own and insight is often more or less depending on the issue.


true but if only one company produced milk, ethics would not apply if you had a child to raise that was dependent on the product. ethics only come into play in the consumer's world if you have other options. otherwise if you need the product, you will purchase it. Ethics become subjective.


right but in the business world crap imitations of every quality product are produced. thats how it works. some people are car people so they are informed about the business practices of particular companies. And choose to apply their beliefs because its much more personal. Do they investigate every facet of every product they buy? of course not. its a pretty gray area.


yes but to what extent does this end and begin. If everyone here found out lexus broke child labor laws in a mfr plant in malaysia for 50 yrs would ethics then apply? how many would no longer drive their lexus and put it up for sale? probably less than 1%.



no im saying people choose when and when not to apply it.
clearly they should not be stealing the name of another brand. In fact I am against it but I am playing devil's advocate to argue real world viewpoints of how the market actually works.

LexFather

That is not what I said so please take the time to read what I say and absorb it before replying. I said clearly if you don't know its a knock-off I can understand buying it b/c you are not educated on wheels. It happened to me. . If you do know it is a knock-off and you sell it or buy it that is your choice and don't get upset if we point it out.



That is not what I said at all. Non-oem is fine if its not a knock-off and built to the specifications of a OEM part. There are laws for that. We are not talking about non-OEM we are talking about KNOCK-OFFs. A replica. A fake. Like fake Air Jordans or a Fake Rolex.



lol, no such thing as a free market. They say that but there is no "free" market.



Like its subjective to defend ethics? Let me give you an example that might hit home.
1. You bust your *** to make a company that makes high quality wheels. You invest your time and energy and resources to make a product that looks the way it does b/c it is the best way to keep the wheel strong. Your wheels costs $5000 a set b/c you took the time to research, market, test the wheel.

2. Guy 2 decides that they will say to hell with your hard work and accomplishments and sell the exact same thing in regards to looks for $1000 a set. Quality is not nearly as good, it hasn't been tested on the track, it is simply a replica, identical to the wheel. So it looks just like the 5k wheels but works like a 1k wheel. It is identical, not any different. This Guy also decides to sell Guy #1's centercap and people buy the FAKE centercap.

If you were guy 1 what would you think? Wouldn't you sue him?

Its why the music industry went after Napster etc. Its why I've seen M.O.P beat down guys selling their CDs in the streets with the fake cover.

Stormforge

let's use your milk example then. we live in the north american continent where milk is produced locally in your country and in mine. dairy farmers produce the milk and grocery chains buy it wholesale. they in turn sell it to us retail. but price of milk goes up because of inflation. it becomes too expensive to buy. a shady corner grocery store sells cheap milk, but it's imported from china. you hear about the tainted milk scandal in the news (see this link for details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal ). let's say you have a family and you got kids, and your kids need milk. you can't afford the real milk because it's way too expensive. are you saying that you are willing to risk your kids health and life by buying the fake milk? is ethics really subjective if the well being of your children is at stake? or would you rather do without the fake milk and have your kids drink pop instead until you saved enough money to buy real milk? i think the choice should be obvious!



what you say is true, but let's face it...you know something is fake when you see the price tag. let's take lady's handbag as an example. an authentic christian dior handbag goes for $2,000+. a fake that looks exactly the same sells for $150 (same logo, brand name, everything). are you telling me that a person has to research whether the bag for $150 is a fake? of course not! the price gives it away. it's not a grey area if there is a large price differential, the fake is easily spotted. only if the fake tries to imitate the original and try to compete at near similar price points (like a couple hundred dollars off), then you have a tougher time trying to spot whether it's real or not - this becomes the gray area where research is required.



good point, but as i pointed out above, it is a matter of personal ethics. what may bother one person's conscience may not bother another's. again, we all have different ethics on what we are willing or unwilling to do. some people don't care if lexus broke child labor laws and keep their cars; those that do will get rid of their lexus automobiles. all i'm saying is that you can't just paint a brush and say that ethics don't play a part in a consumer's decision. even a person who doesn't care about broken child labor laws shows that he chooses to ignore ethics, which is an ethical decision in itself! no one said that ethics had to be choosing what is good or right; a person's ethics could be choosing bad or selfish choices, and we see that in a lot of people around us.


i understand that, but when a person chooses when and when not to apply their ethics, what does that say about that person or his moral character? and clearly if majority of people apply ethics when it suits them, what does that say about our culture, our society, the world that we live in? that's definitely food for thought, because if we can convince ourselves that buying knockoffs is morally right, then stealing (in whatever shape or form) isn't as bad as it should be, because we can compartmentalize our behavior and make it acceptable. and that my fellow CL buddy, is one of the reasons why the world we live in is in such a mess.

ClearP

I'm starting to think this "fake = bad" statement is too much to understand. I'm sorry it's so confusing, I'll get back at you when I have something more simple.