///MDex

This comparison is for the TRD RACE / Blue Sways & The Daazen Sways (only 1 set I believe)

I'm trying to get a finite grip, so let's make this thread as straightforward as can be:

- just the facts
- I don't want to talk about vendors; just products
- ride is subjective

I've read the posts, and now I'm going to try to summarize what I preceive to be the differences, with some questions thrown in:

Weight:
TRDs = heavier - why?
D = lighter - why?

Bushings:
TRD = rubber
D = poly

Inside Diameter:
TRD = smaller; thicker walled (perhaps why heavier?)
D = larger; thinner walls

Adjustibility:
TRD = none
D = some (is this right?)

Stiffness:
TRD = stiffer (to comensate for the use of rubber bushings perhaps?)
D = not as stiff

Attachment Points:
Both are the same?


Quesitons:
- SO, if the poly bushings are what contribute to the 'better' ride as so many have stated, why not just use poly bushings for the TRD instead of dropping another $4 or 5 hundy; for the adjustibility?

- why are the TRD "RACE" sway bushings rubber if stiffness, rigidity, and performance was what they were after with these sways? The argument seems to say that poly is better for performance.

Thanks guys

DrewGS4

Great post, I was wondering about the same facts ....I hope Rominl posts something up as he was riding on the TRD and now will be changing them to Daizen.

Doesn't the poly bushings contribute to greater squeaking vs the rubber bushings. And in theory they should fit right on the TRD .....can someone verify this?

Also, what sort of adjustabitlity is there with the Daizen and what gets adjusted?

rominl

iTrader: (4)

a very needed thread imho, dex. yes, i should be getting all the information together with my own review after this weekend, so stay tuned

///MDex

Well, we sure know all the Spectra Blue owners are interested!

DrewGS4

LoL, all we need now is bluelex to get a 4 way interest

DoubleWhoosh

Wow so many questions!!!

I'll try to help out here...

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TRDs are heavy because they are solid (logical answer)
DST are lighter because they are hollow (also logical )

Key point: Sprung and unsprung weight are very critical items to keep in check. The stock bars are hollow to save weight as well. This noticeably affects handling, acceleration, ride quality and braking more than you would think.

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TRD rubber
DST polyurethane

Rubber is more compliant than urethane (logical). Overall rubber can last longer than urethane, but only under certain circumstances. Harsh conditions and temperatures can make a rubber bushing go bad long before a urethane one. In ideal conditions, the rubber will probably last longer due to elasticity. If kept properly lubricated, urethane can last a long, long time.

Both can squeak (as many who have had squeaking problems with completely stock bars and bushings can attest to), but without lubrication, urethane WILL squeak, rubber MIGHT squeak. This is where the proper lubricant comes into play. The aftermarket has gone to great lengths to develop greases that can withstand road conditions, temperatures, rain and snow, etc. These grease formulas are pretty permanent unless wiped off, and are for the most part very waterproof. Modern bushing designs also aid in grease retention in the proper areas. Sooner or later you will probably have to grease them, but if done properly the first time, it can easily be 3 years or more before it is needed. If you don't put enough grease, then yes it will probably start to squeak. At the same time, remember that stock rubbers ones can have the same problem, so this is not a blanket accusation towards urethane or against it, nor is it towards rubber or against it. Just facts. Both can squeak in certain circumstances.

*****************************************

OD, both are around the same. With hollow bars they are almost as stiff as a solid bar of the same OD. In general terms, most of the stiffness comes from the OD itself.

Hollow bars help greatly with the weight issue.

I'd estimate the DST are around 70% lighter than the TRD.

******************************************

Adjustability

TRD none, DST 3 position rear adjustable

This is normally found on higher performance sway bars and race car sway bars. These allow for fine tuning of the suspension behavior based on vehicle use or driver taste.

Just a cool feature to have.

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Stiffness

TRD are actually around 110% stiffer than the stock bars. My guess is these are designed more for a lightened Toyota race car rather than the heavy luxury US Lexus version of these cars. I think this is where the stiff ride and damaged end links comes into play. Remember that TRD doesn't give a *%*&$ what you think they should make - they make what they want and listen to no one. And this is in Japan, on a track, on a RHD manual transmission car. Rubber bushings are used probably since they have access to the factory molds and tooling to make them fit any bar size they want. Logistically probably the easiest for them, and also cheapest for them with their resources available.

DST are around 80% stiffer than stock, and were designed to not affect ride quality. These were designed and built in the US, with the US market Lexus in mind. Urethane is pretty much standard with aftermarket bars nowdays.

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All of the bars use the stock attachments and hardware.

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The urethane bushings don't do anything to contribute to a better ride, they simply make up around 20% in stiffness (beit with the stock or aftermarket bars). The ride quality or lack thereof comes from the bar itself. If it is too stiff, it will not allow adequate suspension compliance to isolate road irregularities and will transmit them throughout the whole vehicle.

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Yes, if you used urethane with the TRD, it would corner even flatter, and would not change the ride quality.

Good luck finding any though, it would require considerable tooling costs to precisely fit that specific bar...

**********************************************

The adjustability is simply something that the TRD doesn't have, once again because they could care less of what you want, they just make what they need. If you like/want those, then that is cool. If you want to be able to fine tune, they probably won't work for you.

**********************************************

Todd Matsubara
TM Engineering LLC
www.tmengineering.net

PHML

iTrader: (33)

Damn Todd -

That's an excellent writeup. I got Information overload now.

Pete

BuyERTS

Excellent. Must make sticky...

///MDex

Todd, thanks very much for the useful info, and I tip my hat to you with regard also to remaining as impartial as possible.

The only thing I take issue with are your statements about why the TRD bars are what they are. You can't purpose to know the marketing strategy of TRD/Toyota, OK?

I mean, yeah, I bet the were originally designed for the JDM, but they wouldn't sell them here / USDM if they didn't think there was a market, right?

As far as customers providing them feedback with regard to R&D, in the auto industry, especially OEM, I don't think you'll find too many avenues for the consumer to actively affect change with regard to products.

I DO however applaud you and Daizen for soliciting feedback from the enthusiasts here and abroad for development of the Daizen sways - we (enthusiasts) need more of that.

Now, my personal experience:
- FTR, I really enjoy my TRD Race/Blue Sways. I don't think they are harsh in the least. Maybe I've grown accustomed to them, but passengers (including "high maintenance" types of the fairer sex) never mention anything either. I dunno.

- Would I welcome the adjustibilty? Maybe, not sure I would feel it, especially if I drove my car on the street 90% time, which I do.

- Bushings: great info I have my inspected about every 6 months or so for wearand tear, and had them re-lubed during my last service (60k)

- Weight: cool tip about unsprung & solid pipes; I always thought the TRD sways were thicker walled than the OEM, not solid.


I summary, I want to extend a Thanks again for the info. This is exactly the type of information exhanges we need here, especially from our Vendors.


------------------------------------------------
EDIT: Oh, one more thing


Your next project For those of use who would like the busings and not the bars

DoubleWhoosh

Well, I actually do know what they think and their purpose (it pays to have good OEM connections ) I happen to know and work with a lot of people from Toyota Corporate and TRD at the R&D level. Basically those are as we already said, made in Japan for their purpose. Do remember that the TRD parts are globally distributed, so the stuff we get here in the US is also sent to Europe, Australia, etc. This is why the distribution and supply is not so good. And does TRD care? No. Good products yes, but they are a byproduct of their Japanese race program. Completely different approach than products that are designed and marketed towards a consumer market. This is why they don't even have instructions in English. If they sold 0, 10 or 1000 they could care less either way.

And yes, we do a whole lot of OEM work here for various automotive manufacturers, and I have been doing this for probably 8 years now. I can tell you that they always have good intentions at the OEM level, but a lot gets lost through penny pinching, red tape, politics, time, etc. On another note, customer input is greatly valued to them as well. You just don't realize it when you're looking at it from the consumer side of things. Consumer input is responsible for many many things at the OEM level.

Trust me if I could tell you the things that are in the works for the future, you'd be pretty impressed at the efforts

***********************************************

As far as your ride quality, you prob find it ok, I prob would find it ok too, but I can tolerate quite a bit more than the average person! But if you switched to the DST or stock, you would definitely notice a change. The TRD at not worse, they are just stiffer. It just happens that this is objectionable to the majority of people.

On the adjustability, I think anyone that drives their car hard will appreciate it. Once you drive a car every day, you can really start to know what little changes can do you some good. If you just hopped into it and buzzed around, then changed it, you might not know, since you are not becoming intimately familiar with the characteristics.

RON430

"TRD rubber
DST polyurethane

Rubber is less compliant than urethane (logical). Overall rubber can last longer than urethane, but only under certain circumstances. Harsh conditions and temperatures can make a rubber bushing go bad long before a urethane one. In ideal conditions, the rubber will probably last longer due to elasticity. If kept properly lubricated, urethane can last a long, long time."

Really. I think you meant to say that the rubber is more compliant than the polyurethane. The durometer on the rubber is probably lower than on the poly but the rubber does benefit from elastic properties that the poly doesn't - squash the polyurethane and it stays squashed. I haven't seen a polyurethane bushing come close to a rubber bushing in life although I didn't have ideal conditions. I don't know exactly what ideal conditions we are talking about here (I am just talking about real world driving in the Midwest and West) but I made my own rigid bushings for race cars (as well as bought them when they became available) starting over thirty years ago (ugh!) and there is no mystery why OEMs use rubber in the bushings and get years and hundreds of thousands of miles of lifetime out of them. Over time, I think you will find that the things that are hardest on rubber bushings like ozone, UV exposure, heat, and underhood chemicals, will be influential on polyurethane as well. True, the rubber gets hard and crack but the polyurethane is prone to the same problem but they usually wear to the point of causing bar movement (nice little clicks initially and then clunks if you've never heard them) long before they start cracking and need replacing for wear issues first. Lubing the solid bushings is a necessity but as soon as the loading on the bar takes the film off, the bar contacts the poly and I can tell you who wears under that situation. On a race car, no big deal. But even for racing that is why we quickly got around to filled polymers (usually glass for strength and teflon for lubricity). They did OK but I believe the technology eventually moved to metal mounts with proper bearings which is about where it was at when I finished up, as I said we had already moved on to filled bronze. As for machining the polymer bearings (and even the bronze), it really wasn't much of a job at all, especially if you had the rubber bushing to use as a template. If a college kid could knock them out without tooling, it doesn't qualify for that monumental a job. I am not trying to dissuade anyone from using solid bushings. If you haven't ever used them, go ahead and experiment. The roll bar is a system and part of a bigger system, the entire suspension, and any bar has compliance, it can't transfer all the forces (you wouldn't want it to anyway). So whether the compliance comes from the bar giving, or the bushings giving (the reality is they both give unless the bushings are metal in which case it is only the bar deflecting and this is one of the issues with the polymer bushings, being able to restore after a force has compressed it) it all just adds up for the total performance of the bar. My feeling is also that the famous mounting bolt looseness issue has nothing to do with the stiffness of the bar but rather just not being tight from the factory. I also need to check the end links and see what kind of bushings (if any) are in there. Don't think anyone has talked about replacing those yet. Of course on race cars, it is all heim joints.

It seems to me that when I put the TRD blues on, I measured the OD and got the same diameter as the stock but I don't remember for sure. But, I do have an unused set of TRD blues for the GS3 and the stockers still in the garage so I will get some measurements this weekend including weight. Also, I don't have a reference right now but my impression is that the TRD blue is still hollow but with a greater wall thickness than the stock. The front was an impressive piece (especially lifting it in place) but as I am sure everyone knows we are talking about two bars here and the stock rear bar feels like you can twist it in your hands. The TRD blue really felt to me to be about the weakest bar I wanted to try and my guess to where most of the cornering flatness comes from with the TRDs (old rule of thumb, the rear bar has more effect on the front end and the front bar has more effect on the rear end - don't know why, just worked out that way). As always, the only other mod on my car is the bilsteins (with 16s) and I found no noticeable decrease in ride with the TRDs but the cornering did improve dramatically.

Still think choice is the best possibility but the TRD blues work just fine for me. The GS is a big heavy sedan and with the TRD sways, I easily exceed roll stability that I saw in the fives and sevens I owned. But with all the hubbub on these bars, whatever hard data we can get (like OD and weight) could be useful. Once they get installed and it is up to the buttometer, we cross to subjectivity.

More data coming.

DoubleWhoosh

Oops yeah that's what I meant =)

The TRD are not hollow and they are significantly larger than the stock bars. If you measure them you will see this for yourself. If you picked them up in succession, you would surely not assume they are hollow. This thread was to bring facts to the table to clear up this very type of confusing information. This is exactly why people are so confused. They read that someone said they were about the same size and that they were both hollow (both untrue), and then they go on repeating that to others or at least believing that is true. This thread was to clear these problems up, not reintroduce them.

Bushing technology has progressed considerably in the last 30 years, and especially so in the last 5 or so. This is also true with the chemical properties of the lubricants used today. We are a pretty advanced society nowdays, and solutions are developed pretty quickly when needed.

I don't think these bushings can be as horrible as you are making them out to be if so many companies are using them. I'd say that easily 95% or more of aftermarket sway bar sets use urethane bushings today. This is today, 2003. Maybe in 1973 or even 1983 this could have been a serious issue.

The purpose of this thread was not to debate bushing material.

altaf

Can the polyurethane bushings used on the Daizen sways be replaced easily? Let's assume the car owner did not lube the bushings properly, would the entire sways need to be replaced, or the bushings only? How much would replacing the bushing cost?

I'm thinking that if the polyurethane bushings are cheap, why not replace them every 30k, kind of make it a maintenance item?

And yes, this post should be a sticky... great info guys!

DoubleWhoosh

Yes, they can be changed, although they will definitely last more than 30K!

The bars should easily outlast the vehicle.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

wow! i am amazed man, all these info are awesome! i can't believe all the details you went into todd.