Poly bushings woth it?
01-23-07, 07:27 AM
#1
Poly bushings woth it?
Im thinking about doing poly bushings.Ill likely do control arms sways and rack bushings.I have already done a ton of suspension work and feel like I should do these.I have heard mixed opinions.What do you guys think?Thanks
01-23-07, 07:43 AM
#2
Don't do it.
don't do it.. I did mine and I am spitting on myself now.. lol.. Its a bit** to take out, could cost you a lot of money (arround$400), and I did not feel much improvement, I mean it stiffened up the front end maybe 15% but the ride became bumpy, and they will squeak like hell and more if the weather temp drops below 60.. I am looking on junk yards to get OEM control arms with OEM bushings, to get mine with Daizen bushings replaced... here is an article written by Car Engineer, I copied and pasted it:
**Moderators fix misspelled "worth" in the Subject!!
F-body Control Arms and Suspension Bushings:
How the factory suspension and bushings work
Adjustable lower control arm (LCA) brackets (for lowered F-body cars)
Adjustable panhard rod (APHR) (for lowered F-body cars)
Suspension/Bushing Bind
Polyurethane bushings
Alternatives
Why isn't Polyurethane a good bushing material?
Are factory control arms strong enough?
Wheel hop
References
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How the factory suspension and bushings work: The rubber bushings on most cars consist of a larger steel sleeve mounted in a control arm, with a smaller steel sleeve inside for the mounting bolt, held in place with rubber that was cast in place. The sleeve is fixed in the arm, and the inner tube held tight by the mounting bolt. As the arm moves, the rubber material gives to the shear forces, allowing smooth movement of the arm. There are no maintenance issues, and moving surfaces to wear/squeak/rattle, but over time, the rubber will deteriorate.
Bushings are placed at the pivot points of the suspension for some (not necessarily all) of these reasons:
Smooth movement - a nut and bolt aren't enough, but bearings overkill, or not applicable (bearings are made for circular motion, not back and forth movement)
Vibration isolation - rubber bushings reduce road noise
Deflection under load - when engineered into a system, this deflection can allow the suspension freedom of movement. See axle
The 4th generation f-body short-long arm (SLA) front suspension is designed so that the bushing deflection does not seriously impact the alignment, allowing for vibration isolation while preserving the steering geometry.
The 3rd and 4th generation Camaro and Firebirds have a trailing arm rear suspension that is susceptible to bind under some conditions. The lower control arms (LCA) are the key components, as they must position the axle front/back while handling acceleration and braking forces, while allowing the axle to move up and down and twist in relation to the chassis over bumps. The panhard rod (PHR) locates the axle side-to-side, handling the cornering forces. The torque arm is a nice feature in this setup, handling the torque from the driveline that normally would be taken up in the control arms or leaf springs (in older cars). Short of an independent rear suspension setup, this is probably as good as it gets.
Adjustable lower control arm (LCA) brackets: When you lower the car, the forward LCA chassis mounting point is lower in relation to the rear axle mount, causing the LCAs to slope down to the front mounts. This is not dangerous, but will hurt traction and increase squat and dive. These brackets allow the repositioning of the rear mounting point of the LCAs so the arms can again be parallel to the ground. If you picture the axle as pushing/pulling on the LCAs (when accelerating/braking), you want the forces to be horizontal to improve traction and minimize squat and dive. They are mounted on the axle (welded, but there are bolt in versions) and it is critical that the brackets are mounted parallel to each other, so as not to throw off the alignment of the rear axle. Note: If you alter the ride height after installing the brackets, and the rear mounting point of the LCAs are lower than the front, this will create dangerous handling at speed.
Adjustable panhard rod (PHR), for lowered cars, allows repositioning of the rear axle left-to-right in relation to the chassis. As the axle moves up and down, or when the car is lowered, the axle moves slightly left-right as the PHR swings in an arc. On most cars this is not an issue, but with larger tires and wheels some cars may need adjustment after the suspension has been lowered. After my car was lowered 2.5" in the rear, the axle was off 4 mm, not enough to worry about. You can measure this using a plumb line off the fender and a ruler against the wheel rim on each side.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Suspension/bushing bind:
Bind occurs when the the pivot points of the suspension cannot move as intended. As it relates to third- and forth generation F-body car, bind is when the pivot points do not move smoothly under load (stiction, or static friction) or when the suspension moves outside its (or one or more of its components) design parameters (in this case, range of motion restricted by the lack of compliance in the polyurethane bushings)
Under hard cornering, bind can create dangerous handling conditions.
Polyurethane bushings:
Polyurethane (or 'poly' or 'plastic') bushings are popular, as they noticeably 'tighten up' the suspension, and the aftermarket arms look cool, but most purchasers to not understand how they work, or the problems they create. This is an old issue, but the recent popularity of poly-equipped aftermarket control arms has drowned out the proven drawbacks of this material, including stiction, binding, squeaking, harshness, and need for regular greasing.
Poly is used in place of the rubber portion of the factory bushings. Unlike the rubber bushings, they are not bonded to the inner and outer sleeve, and movement of the control arm will cause the internal surfaces of the sleeves and bushing to slide to accommodate the shearing forces. The two main issues:
Stiction (Static Friction): Under light loads, they may squeak as the arm moves. Regular greasing reduces the squeaking, but under high loads, especially cornering on uneven pavement, the "sticky" properties of polyurethane causes the plastic to "grab" the steel liner, adding harshness to the ride, as the steel sleeves can't slide smoothly over the poly bushing surfaces. At worst, when the suspension then cannot move as designed, the handling of the car will be affected and this can create unexpected and dangerous oversteer.
Binding: To complicate matters, the trailing arm type rear suspension in the late model f-body cars has bushings that flex or 'deflect' as a normal and required part of their function. As the solid 'live' axle moves to comply with an uneven surface, it (and the LCA mounting points) rotate in relation to the chassis. To illustrate:
Normal axle movement
The factory rubber bushings in the lower control arms accommodate this rotation/twist by design;
Poly bushings force the lower control arms to twist.
Tubular or boxed control arms - with poly bushings - force the LCA mounting brackets on the chassis and axle to bend;
Now that the car relies on twisting metal for suspension, it may at times bind, as the axle cannot move smoothly comply with bumps. The resulting oversteer condition can result in loss of control on high speed corners - not what you want in a high-power rear-drive car.
Subframe connectors (SFCs), added to brace the chassis, reinforce the forward LCA mounting points, but the twisting force is still there on the arms and rear mounts; poly bushings may seen to ride firmer after the addition of SFCs due to the more solid mounting of the LCAs.
Even for lower speed handling, the poly bushings increase the rear roll stiffness - something you should be tuning with the spring rates and sway bars.
Greasing the poly bushings does not help this issue.
Alternatives:
GM factory 1LE LCAs and PHR with higher durometer (firmer) rubber bushings. If you don't have a 1LE Camaro/Firebird (or earlier SS/WS6), the parts are available from GM parts counters, GMPartsDirect, SLP, and others. Don't pay extra for boxed versions of the factory parts. Reference: 1LE Part Numbers (Note: GM discontinued the use of 1LE bushings in the WS6 and SS packages a couple years ago, so may/may not apply to your car)
Spherical bushings - very noisy, harsh, meant for race cars. No deflection or stiction problems, but can loosen and rattle with wear over time.
Dispelling other myths:
Why isn't Polyurethane a good bushing material?
"...virtually no deflection..." (cut and pasted from their web page). As mentioned above, the engineers that design these cars employ rubber bushings because deflection is required in most locations.
"But I lubed them well, or I used Polygraphite® bushings": You are asking the poly material to act like metal bushings, and it can't. Lubing will temporarily reduce the squeaking and stiction. The graphite-impregnated versions are just 'pre-lubed', and once the graphite has worked its way out, the bushings will squeak and require regular lubing like the others. Lubing does nothing for the binding problem.
"They get quieter over time": Poly will cold-flow, meaning it will deform under pressure and not return to normal, as it lacks the elasticity of the rubber bushings. Over time, they will loosen and then rattle. Check out the shape of your swaybar's poly end-link bushings after only a few months. This cold-flow issue can also lead to alignment problems on the front control arms, as the bushings deform.
"But everyone sells them". Well, yes, and the manufacturers of Slick 50 and the makers of 'ultra/super white' bulbs could line up a long list of satisfied customers, but what would that mean?
"Testimonials are everywhere!" but they don't convey the facts. Don't' believe everything you read in a glossy brochure or web page. Ever watch those late night infomercials? Like those other automotive miracles, wouldn't the large manufacturers pick up on this stuff if it really lived up to all it's claims?
"But lots of other people use them!" As mentioned above, trailing arm suspension requires deflection in order to work, and when poly bushings are used, the required deflection is still there -- in the bending of the arms, mounting points, and flex of the rear tires. This is why these bushings appear to work fine for street applications.
Are Factory control arms strong enough?
"They are just stamped steel". They are more than strong enough for a 1LE car on R compound tires. The stress loads are all longitudinal. They do not support any side loads, so they don't need strength in those directions.
"They twist, especially with poly bushings in place." Of course - if you take out the bushing compliance with poly, something must give. This twisting does not effect the alignment or placement of the rear axle.
"Boxed arms are better". There is no gain to be had from boxing the factory lower control arms. This is done by welding flat plates on the underside of the stamped steel arms. If fact, allowing them to twist will compensate for the poly bushings if you have them.
"Boxed (or rectangular) tubing will resist lateral loading better than tubular". There are no lateral loads on the LCAs or PHR.
"Tubular arms are stronger". Tubes are the strongest design for resisting twisting forces - but since this is not a problem in F-body trailing arm setups, tubular arms should be purchased for:
appearance - 'cuz they look cool
added weight (some can be heavier than stock/1LE)
aftermarket LCAs with spherical bushings (for racing)
adjustable aftermarket LCAs with spherical bushings (for racing, FWIW)
spending excess cash.
Also, the strength of the tubular arms, combined with poly bushings on each end, will affect the roll stiffness of the car (turning the axle into an second swaybar) and transfer the twisting forces into the LCA mounting points on the chassis and axle. This is not good.
Many people that swear by poly bushings simply do not understand how the suspension on these cars work. BMR, a popular F-body aftermarket supplier, is a good example of this, with a FAQ that contains glaring errors regarding the specific duty of each of the F-body suspension parts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wheel hop: I mention it here because many have commented how poly bushings have 'cured' their wheel hop problems. Wheel hop occurs when the traction and torque applied to the drive wheels overwhelm the ability of the suspension to keep the tires on the ground. The tire grabs, deforms, 'hops' up and comes down to grab again (and again, etc), with some forward/back motion as allowed by the bushings. As the bushings degrade over time, the problem worsens -- which is why 'upgrading' to poly seems to help, as the basic factory bushings can be worn out in as little as 30K miles. Serious racers will go to rod ends, but for the street, to avoid the problems with polyurethane, the longer-lived 1LE bushings will suffice. From my research and experience, good quality adjustable shocks can play a big role in eliminating wheel hop, as well as Air Lift air bags installed in the rear coil springs, which also allow preloading of the right rear tire at the strip.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
References for this and other suspension topics:
Chassis Engineering by Herb Adams (ISBN1-55788-055-7)
How to make your car handle by Fred Puhn (ISBN 0912656468)
How to Tune & Modify Your Camaro 1982-1998 by Jason Scott (ISBN 076030436X)
CamaroZ28.com Bulletin Board: Autocross and Road Racing
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comments, suggestions, corrections? acarnut @ newsguy.com
Home
Technical notes page for more on suspension and chassis mods.
Last edited Monday, April 01, 2002
Source: http://www.geocities.com/acarnut99/bushings.htm
**Moderators fix misspelled "worth" in the Subject!!
F-body Control Arms and Suspension Bushings:
How the factory suspension and bushings work
Adjustable lower control arm (LCA) brackets (for lowered F-body cars)
Adjustable panhard rod (APHR) (for lowered F-body cars)
Suspension/Bushing Bind
Polyurethane bushings
Alternatives
Why isn't Polyurethane a good bushing material?
Are factory control arms strong enough?
Wheel hop
References
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How the factory suspension and bushings work: The rubber bushings on most cars consist of a larger steel sleeve mounted in a control arm, with a smaller steel sleeve inside for the mounting bolt, held in place with rubber that was cast in place. The sleeve is fixed in the arm, and the inner tube held tight by the mounting bolt. As the arm moves, the rubber material gives to the shear forces, allowing smooth movement of the arm. There are no maintenance issues, and moving surfaces to wear/squeak/rattle, but over time, the rubber will deteriorate.
Bushings are placed at the pivot points of the suspension for some (not necessarily all) of these reasons:
Smooth movement - a nut and bolt aren't enough, but bearings overkill, or not applicable (bearings are made for circular motion, not back and forth movement)
Vibration isolation - rubber bushings reduce road noise
Deflection under load - when engineered into a system, this deflection can allow the suspension freedom of movement. See axle
The 4th generation f-body short-long arm (SLA) front suspension is designed so that the bushing deflection does not seriously impact the alignment, allowing for vibration isolation while preserving the steering geometry.
The 3rd and 4th generation Camaro and Firebirds have a trailing arm rear suspension that is susceptible to bind under some conditions. The lower control arms (LCA) are the key components, as they must position the axle front/back while handling acceleration and braking forces, while allowing the axle to move up and down and twist in relation to the chassis over bumps. The panhard rod (PHR) locates the axle side-to-side, handling the cornering forces. The torque arm is a nice feature in this setup, handling the torque from the driveline that normally would be taken up in the control arms or leaf springs (in older cars). Short of an independent rear suspension setup, this is probably as good as it gets.
Adjustable lower control arm (LCA) brackets: When you lower the car, the forward LCA chassis mounting point is lower in relation to the rear axle mount, causing the LCAs to slope down to the front mounts. This is not dangerous, but will hurt traction and increase squat and dive. These brackets allow the repositioning of the rear mounting point of the LCAs so the arms can again be parallel to the ground. If you picture the axle as pushing/pulling on the LCAs (when accelerating/braking), you want the forces to be horizontal to improve traction and minimize squat and dive. They are mounted on the axle (welded, but there are bolt in versions) and it is critical that the brackets are mounted parallel to each other, so as not to throw off the alignment of the rear axle. Note: If you alter the ride height after installing the brackets, and the rear mounting point of the LCAs are lower than the front, this will create dangerous handling at speed.
Adjustable panhard rod (PHR), for lowered cars, allows repositioning of the rear axle left-to-right in relation to the chassis. As the axle moves up and down, or when the car is lowered, the axle moves slightly left-right as the PHR swings in an arc. On most cars this is not an issue, but with larger tires and wheels some cars may need adjustment after the suspension has been lowered. After my car was lowered 2.5" in the rear, the axle was off 4 mm, not enough to worry about. You can measure this using a plumb line off the fender and a ruler against the wheel rim on each side.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Suspension/bushing bind:
Bind occurs when the the pivot points of the suspension cannot move as intended. As it relates to third- and forth generation F-body car, bind is when the pivot points do not move smoothly under load (stiction, or static friction) or when the suspension moves outside its (or one or more of its components) design parameters (in this case, range of motion restricted by the lack of compliance in the polyurethane bushings)
Under hard cornering, bind can create dangerous handling conditions.
Polyurethane bushings:
Polyurethane (or 'poly' or 'plastic') bushings are popular, as they noticeably 'tighten up' the suspension, and the aftermarket arms look cool, but most purchasers to not understand how they work, or the problems they create. This is an old issue, but the recent popularity of poly-equipped aftermarket control arms has drowned out the proven drawbacks of this material, including stiction, binding, squeaking, harshness, and need for regular greasing.
Poly is used in place of the rubber portion of the factory bushings. Unlike the rubber bushings, they are not bonded to the inner and outer sleeve, and movement of the control arm will cause the internal surfaces of the sleeves and bushing to slide to accommodate the shearing forces. The two main issues:
Stiction (Static Friction): Under light loads, they may squeak as the arm moves. Regular greasing reduces the squeaking, but under high loads, especially cornering on uneven pavement, the "sticky" properties of polyurethane causes the plastic to "grab" the steel liner, adding harshness to the ride, as the steel sleeves can't slide smoothly over the poly bushing surfaces. At worst, when the suspension then cannot move as designed, the handling of the car will be affected and this can create unexpected and dangerous oversteer.
Binding: To complicate matters, the trailing arm type rear suspension in the late model f-body cars has bushings that flex or 'deflect' as a normal and required part of their function. As the solid 'live' axle moves to comply with an uneven surface, it (and the LCA mounting points) rotate in relation to the chassis. To illustrate:
Normal axle movement
The factory rubber bushings in the lower control arms accommodate this rotation/twist by design;
Poly bushings force the lower control arms to twist.
Tubular or boxed control arms - with poly bushings - force the LCA mounting brackets on the chassis and axle to bend;
Now that the car relies on twisting metal for suspension, it may at times bind, as the axle cannot move smoothly comply with bumps. The resulting oversteer condition can result in loss of control on high speed corners - not what you want in a high-power rear-drive car.
Subframe connectors (SFCs), added to brace the chassis, reinforce the forward LCA mounting points, but the twisting force is still there on the arms and rear mounts; poly bushings may seen to ride firmer after the addition of SFCs due to the more solid mounting of the LCAs.
Even for lower speed handling, the poly bushings increase the rear roll stiffness - something you should be tuning with the spring rates and sway bars.
Greasing the poly bushings does not help this issue.
Alternatives:
GM factory 1LE LCAs and PHR with higher durometer (firmer) rubber bushings. If you don't have a 1LE Camaro/Firebird (or earlier SS/WS6), the parts are available from GM parts counters, GMPartsDirect, SLP, and others. Don't pay extra for boxed versions of the factory parts. Reference: 1LE Part Numbers (Note: GM discontinued the use of 1LE bushings in the WS6 and SS packages a couple years ago, so may/may not apply to your car)
Spherical bushings - very noisy, harsh, meant for race cars. No deflection or stiction problems, but can loosen and rattle with wear over time.
Dispelling other myths:
Why isn't Polyurethane a good bushing material?
"...virtually no deflection..." (cut and pasted from their web page). As mentioned above, the engineers that design these cars employ rubber bushings because deflection is required in most locations.
"But I lubed them well, or I used Polygraphite® bushings": You are asking the poly material to act like metal bushings, and it can't. Lubing will temporarily reduce the squeaking and stiction. The graphite-impregnated versions are just 'pre-lubed', and once the graphite has worked its way out, the bushings will squeak and require regular lubing like the others. Lubing does nothing for the binding problem.
"They get quieter over time": Poly will cold-flow, meaning it will deform under pressure and not return to normal, as it lacks the elasticity of the rubber bushings. Over time, they will loosen and then rattle. Check out the shape of your swaybar's poly end-link bushings after only a few months. This cold-flow issue can also lead to alignment problems on the front control arms, as the bushings deform.
"But everyone sells them". Well, yes, and the manufacturers of Slick 50 and the makers of 'ultra/super white' bulbs could line up a long list of satisfied customers, but what would that mean?
"Testimonials are everywhere!" but they don't convey the facts. Don't' believe everything you read in a glossy brochure or web page. Ever watch those late night infomercials? Like those other automotive miracles, wouldn't the large manufacturers pick up on this stuff if it really lived up to all it's claims?
"But lots of other people use them!" As mentioned above, trailing arm suspension requires deflection in order to work, and when poly bushings are used, the required deflection is still there -- in the bending of the arms, mounting points, and flex of the rear tires. This is why these bushings appear to work fine for street applications.
Are Factory control arms strong enough?
"They are just stamped steel". They are more than strong enough for a 1LE car on R compound tires. The stress loads are all longitudinal. They do not support any side loads, so they don't need strength in those directions.
"They twist, especially with poly bushings in place." Of course - if you take out the bushing compliance with poly, something must give. This twisting does not effect the alignment or placement of the rear axle.
"Boxed arms are better". There is no gain to be had from boxing the factory lower control arms. This is done by welding flat plates on the underside of the stamped steel arms. If fact, allowing them to twist will compensate for the poly bushings if you have them.
"Boxed (or rectangular) tubing will resist lateral loading better than tubular". There are no lateral loads on the LCAs or PHR.
"Tubular arms are stronger". Tubes are the strongest design for resisting twisting forces - but since this is not a problem in F-body trailing arm setups, tubular arms should be purchased for:
appearance - 'cuz they look cool
added weight (some can be heavier than stock/1LE)
aftermarket LCAs with spherical bushings (for racing)
adjustable aftermarket LCAs with spherical bushings (for racing, FWIW)
spending excess cash.
Also, the strength of the tubular arms, combined with poly bushings on each end, will affect the roll stiffness of the car (turning the axle into an second swaybar) and transfer the twisting forces into the LCA mounting points on the chassis and axle. This is not good.
Many people that swear by poly bushings simply do not understand how the suspension on these cars work. BMR, a popular F-body aftermarket supplier, is a good example of this, with a FAQ that contains glaring errors regarding the specific duty of each of the F-body suspension parts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wheel hop: I mention it here because many have commented how poly bushings have 'cured' their wheel hop problems. Wheel hop occurs when the traction and torque applied to the drive wheels overwhelm the ability of the suspension to keep the tires on the ground. The tire grabs, deforms, 'hops' up and comes down to grab again (and again, etc), with some forward/back motion as allowed by the bushings. As the bushings degrade over time, the problem worsens -- which is why 'upgrading' to poly seems to help, as the basic factory bushings can be worn out in as little as 30K miles. Serious racers will go to rod ends, but for the street, to avoid the problems with polyurethane, the longer-lived 1LE bushings will suffice. From my research and experience, good quality adjustable shocks can play a big role in eliminating wheel hop, as well as Air Lift air bags installed in the rear coil springs, which also allow preloading of the right rear tire at the strip.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
References for this and other suspension topics:
Chassis Engineering by Herb Adams (ISBN1-55788-055-7)
How to make your car handle by Fred Puhn (ISBN 0912656468)
How to Tune & Modify Your Camaro 1982-1998 by Jason Scott (ISBN 076030436X)
CamaroZ28.com Bulletin Board: Autocross and Road Racing
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comments, suggestions, corrections? acarnut @ newsguy.com
Home
Technical notes page for more on suspension and chassis mods.
Last edited Monday, April 01, 2002
Source: http://www.geocities.com/acarnut99/bushings.htm
01-23-07, 07:58 AM
#3
another thing I might add.. After I was sold on all the good things that people said about the Daizen bushings, I ran and spent the money and got them done. I got lucky, my poor mech, who is my friend by the way, did this job for me for $100 and pressed them out for like 8hrs! He told me he would never do it again.. He told me they would not work good and will have problems. Then I wanted to see who actually got these done on ClubLexus. After researching, I found that, owners of the best looking 2nd gen GS's like DaveGS4 (moderator) who has in my opinion probably the best looking, clean moded, probably the fastest GS on here and guess what, he did everything possible on that car to make it handle as far as the suspension goes, not mentioning all the money he spent on everything else, why wouldn't he upgrade the bushings, since it is such a cheap upgrade!! He even has TRD sway bars, which don't come with poly bushings, but come with rubber.. Thats my two cents.. If you want to mod your car the right way, just see what Dave did.. I have a feeling that other big dogs on here know what problems arise with poly bushings, and maybe had them done and went back to OEM bushings due to all the problems I pasted above but just not saying anything and keep quiet.. There is plenty of GS's on here that have bank account invested into them, but they do not have Daizen bushings and have everything else, (most of them).. Tell you the truth, I am pissed that no one told me on here that they would squeak and take so much affort to take out, I would never do it again.. I mean, the above info I pasted, I found on 3rd thread when I searched for poly bushings on yahoo!!! Live and learn i guess..
01-23-07, 09:56 AM
#4
i am not going to say much, i am owner of the bushings and i love them. even my wife loves them and notice the improvement dramatically. i have had them for way more than a year (can't even remember when i got it, but i was among the very first) and i don't have any squeaks at all yet. this is my daily driver
my guess is it depends on the installer. if it's a good one, there should be no problem. i know two very good mechanics, and they both install these no problem and have good things to say about them. you go to a bad one who whines left and right about how hard to install these (i have seen couple) and they squeak later, what can i say
i will give you pointers to some threads (goods and bads), you make the call
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=176231
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...=244816&page=2
i just want to point out that it's very funny how dlomonosov put it. so all big dogs have to put every single thing in their cars? there are many reasons why someone would do some but not all. i personally know at least 2 people who have a lot of stuff on their cars, most of them performance oriented. however they don't have the bushings yet. reason for one of them? waiting for the stock ones to really go out first. reason for the second one? he's not spending anymore money on the car and just wait until his next project car.
my guess is it depends on the installer. if it's a good one, there should be no problem. i know two very good mechanics, and they both install these no problem and have good things to say about them. you go to a bad one who whines left and right about how hard to install these (i have seen couple) and they squeak later, what can i say
i will give you pointers to some threads (goods and bads), you make the call
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=176231
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...=244816&page=2
i just want to point out that it's very funny how dlomonosov put it. so all big dogs have to put every single thing in their cars? there are many reasons why someone would do some but not all. i personally know at least 2 people who have a lot of stuff on their cars, most of them performance oriented. however they don't have the bushings yet. reason for one of them? waiting for the stock ones to really go out first. reason for the second one? he's not spending anymore money on the car and just wait until his next project car.
01-23-07, 10:55 AM
#5
I'm surprised to see such negativity about the poly bushings. For me, the difference between oem and poly is night and day. Steering feels better, suspension more planted, faster response, etc..
Only squeaking I've had is slight when it was 38 F. Todd at TM Engineering put 15 bucket loads of grease on them...now I know why.
Only squeaking I've had is slight when it was 38 F. Todd at TM Engineering put 15 bucket loads of grease on them...now I know why.
01-23-07, 11:55 AM
#6
lol.. Rome,
You are the only big dog with tons of mods that I had a pleasure of talking for last year on CL that has no complaints with Daizen bushings! LOL. I know you get your stuff installed by TM Engineering and i think he is the only one that I know of that does a great job installing these, with no complains that we heard on CL.. But 99% of the mechs outhere incuding my mech, that happen to be my friend, do not know a proper way to install it, I guess, and therefore many people on this forum are complaining about these, because from my experience, and IMO, they are not worth the time and money it takes to install them, for only 15% stiffer front end ,and then live with possible squeaks in the future that will involve taking the front end appart again to regreased them, since most of the mechs outhere are not knowledgable or capable enough to proper install these.. So Rom, you got lucky with a good mech that works on Lexus cars and your's were done right, but for the most of us outhere, its not worth the headache. This is not the first thread I see where people are complaining about Daizen poly bushings, and a lot of people are complaining, I mean a lot, you saw and read most likely!! And from above article that I posted, seems like squeaking is the most common thing among the other ones listed, and the source of this article is pretty logit I might add, and ithe research done on this article is from engineering sources.. I am also a member of BMW forums and people there say the same exact thing about squeaking problem, bumping ride, and choppy feedback from cornering from poly bushing mod, due to lack of damping of poly material, unlike the rubber ones.. And these are the issues that are coverred by the article.. Poly bushings I think are good mod for track car and with stiffer front end you inherit most likely squeaking problem. All I want to say Rom, that I am happy and jealous, in some ways lol, that you are problem free with thesee, but I am really happy with my Daizen rack bushings mod, but they do not move or flex inside there, but I am extremely unhappy with squeaking and bumpy ride I got from control arm bushings, and I am not the only one, plus it is clearly stated that these problems will arraise as per the above article on poly bushings.. If I knew about this and made this simple research like I did recently, and found this article, I would never spend money and time on this mod, and many didn't do this mod, and I bet you, for the same reasons I mentioned, but just not talking about it.. But I am very glad you and your wife are happy with them, and maybe it takes someone like TM Eng. to install these proper and have a small possibility of squeaking, but still bumpy ride, isn't it?
You are the only big dog with tons of mods that I had a pleasure of talking for last year on CL that has no complaints with Daizen bushings! LOL. I know you get your stuff installed by TM Engineering and i think he is the only one that I know of that does a great job installing these, with no complains that we heard on CL.. But 99% of the mechs outhere incuding my mech, that happen to be my friend, do not know a proper way to install it, I guess, and therefore many people on this forum are complaining about these, because from my experience, and IMO, they are not worth the time and money it takes to install them, for only 15% stiffer front end ,and then live with possible squeaks in the future that will involve taking the front end appart again to regreased them, since most of the mechs outhere are not knowledgable or capable enough to proper install these.. So Rom, you got lucky with a good mech that works on Lexus cars and your's were done right, but for the most of us outhere, its not worth the headache. This is not the first thread I see where people are complaining about Daizen poly bushings, and a lot of people are complaining, I mean a lot, you saw and read most likely!! And from above article that I posted, seems like squeaking is the most common thing among the other ones listed, and the source of this article is pretty logit I might add, and ithe research done on this article is from engineering sources.. I am also a member of BMW forums and people there say the same exact thing about squeaking problem, bumping ride, and choppy feedback from cornering from poly bushing mod, due to lack of damping of poly material, unlike the rubber ones.. And these are the issues that are coverred by the article.. Poly bushings I think are good mod for track car and with stiffer front end you inherit most likely squeaking problem. All I want to say Rom, that I am happy and jealous, in some ways lol, that you are problem free with thesee, but I am really happy with my Daizen rack bushings mod, but they do not move or flex inside there, but I am extremely unhappy with squeaking and bumpy ride I got from control arm bushings, and I am not the only one, plus it is clearly stated that these problems will arraise as per the above article on poly bushings.. If I knew about this and made this simple research like I did recently, and found this article, I would never spend money and time on this mod, and many didn't do this mod, and I bet you, for the same reasons I mentioned, but just not talking about it.. But I am very glad you and your wife are happy with them, and maybe it takes someone like TM Eng. to install these proper and have a small possibility of squeaking, but still bumpy ride, isn't it?
01-23-07, 11:58 AM
#7
I'm surprised to see such negativity about the poly bushings. For me, the difference between oem and poly is night and day. Steering feels better, suspension more planted, faster response, etc..
Only squeaking I've had is slight when it was 38 F. Todd at TM Engineering put 15 bucket loads of grease on them...now I know why.
Only squeaking I've had is slight when it was 38 F. Todd at TM Engineering put 15 bucket loads of grease on them...now I know why.
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01-23-07, 12:41 PM
#8
I love them too. And I installed everything myself so far. But I wasn't as foolish as some people. I only installed the castor bushings, and the rack bushings so far. Everything else is still fine on the car. I put on a bucket load of grease, and made sure everything is torqued to spec.. Oh, it has been in the 20deg F range here lately. Absolutely no squeeks or anything. But the change in performance is undeniable. I would not go back. When the other bushings fail, I will put the rest of the daizen stuff in. Oh, I am in NYC (pot-holy city) and this is my daily driver.
01-23-07, 12:54 PM
#9
Yes, I should have only did the castor arm bushings, since it would fix 80% of all loosness in the front end, but I also did the upper ones, I did not do the lower arms, i left them OEM due to possible alignment issues.. So I think the upper ones are the ones making the squeaking, since they move the most on dips and bumps.. Also my mech torqued everything with machine gun and I know not with torqueranch and I know it is not up to specs, but tight, how critical is it to torque per specs on Daizen diagram?? I mean they did not squeak for few month and now they squeak in warm and cold weather..
01-23-07, 12:59 PM
#10
how much grease did u guys put on, I mean he did not soak it, but he said it was enough.. I don't know.. on ebay I can buy both upper control arms for both sides new for $300 and just leave my castor arm bushings.. maybe I should do that if spraying that grease would not work.. Does anyone have torque specs on hand for Dazien Control arm bushings to post for me, I missplaced my Daizen diag. somewhere
01-23-07, 01:34 PM
#11
I basically covered every millimeter of the bushing and the arm with grease. A decent layer all around. After I pressed them in, I covered the metal sleeve in more grease. Oh, I also took a big bolt, that just fit in the hole in the bushing, and screwed it in. It was easy with the grease, this sort of made a chanel for the grease to stay. I noticed that these bushings were missing that. (I delt with a lot of poly bushing on my other car, supper-pro bushings never squeeked, and they all had channels). I doubt this is the reason why mine don't squeek, but I did it anyway.
I think torque spec is critical here. Overtightening them will make them compress beyond the designed parameters. Remember they are crazy tight in there already, tightening them more than spec will efectively push whatever grease you have in there, and cause more unlubricated contact.
I say give the bushings another chance. Take them out, grease them like there is no tomorrow, channel them with a bolt, put it back in with proper torque spec. I am sure you will be happy again. I mean it is better than $300 worth of new parts, and you already have the bushings, so a little manual labor, some grease and time, you will be ok.
I think torque spec is critical here. Overtightening them will make them compress beyond the designed parameters. Remember they are crazy tight in there already, tightening them more than spec will efectively push whatever grease you have in there, and cause more unlubricated contact.
I say give the bushings another chance. Take them out, grease them like there is no tomorrow, channel them with a bolt, put it back in with proper torque spec. I am sure you will be happy again. I mean it is better than $300 worth of new parts, and you already have the bushings, so a little manual labor, some grease and time, you will be ok.
01-23-07, 02:00 PM
#14
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I am in the same boat. I put them in myself and torqued to spec. I have about 4 or 5 months on them and they are great. It has been in the 20's every morning for the lat 3-4 weeks. I would do them again in a heartbeat. I also do not understand why your mechanic does not use a torque wrench.
01-23-07, 04:12 PM
#15
Nice info above dlomonosov. btw - Herb Adams is way cool with me and my 69 RS Camaro. 
I probably would NOT do the bushings again. That's just me.
I've done a few front suspensions among other things for over 20 years. I'm confident that every part had the lube, torque specs were used, etc. I now have the dreaded winter squeaks. It's annoying.
I should have bought the swaybars and gone with NEW RUBBER bushings, or as dlomonosov said above, used only the castor arm/lower control arm #2 poly bushing if possible. I had the much hated 60mph shakes. (now gone)
I've had other poly bushings on other cars but I do not remember them adding as much to the impact harshness. (there is a good recent thread about ride quality vs float vs impact harshness)
I disagree about the graphite impregnated bushings losing all their lubricity over time, but, perhaps I just had a better experience with them than others.
I probably would NOT do the bushings again. That's just me.
I've done a few front suspensions among other things for over 20 years. I'm confident that every part had the lube, torque specs were used, etc. I now have the dreaded winter squeaks. It's annoying.
I should have bought the swaybars and gone with NEW RUBBER bushings, or as dlomonosov said above, used only the castor arm/lower control arm #2 poly bushing if possible. I had the much hated 60mph shakes. (now gone)
I've had other poly bushings on other cars but I do not remember them adding as much to the impact harshness. (there is a good recent thread about ride quality vs float vs impact harshness)
I disagree about the graphite impregnated bushings losing all their lubricity over time, but, perhaps I just had a better experience with them than others.