Sway Bars: TRD versus Tanabe - Page 2 - ClubLexus - Lexus Forum Discussion


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Sway Bars: TRD versus Tanabe

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Old 10-12-05, 03:14 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verylost
Todd is probably in bed so I can help answer some of your questions by quoting Todd:

"The Daizen bars we offer have several advantages over this. First and foremost, they were designed FOR an SC, not a Supra. They are also designed to balance the chassis of an SC and have been fitted and tested on an SC. Secondly, they are hollow. 35mm dia, and hollow, with a little over 100% increase in stiffness. The bar is somewhere around 8 lbs if I recall correctly."

The above quote was taken from here:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...2&postcount=29
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...highlight=sway

The Titan bars may be similar but if they are anything like the TRD bars, they may be dangerously close to the oil filter.

I am curious as to what your thoughts are because I find your thoughts and grasp of the English language to be quite refreshing.
Thank you for the info on Daizen.

Since I own a SC300, I don't think I will have issues w/ the sway bar contacting the oil filter. I think it is only the SC400 guys right? I could be wrong. Either way, I'm thinking about purchasing an oil filter relocation kit so that I can move the oil filter to a more convenient location. I will also not get burnt knuckles/hands and I get the added benefit of running sensors for oil temp and pressure gauges.

Regarding some of my thoughts. When guys think of the SC, they think heavy. Next, weight reduction. So the next thing they do, they tear out the seats and start purchasing carbon fiber hood this and carbon fiber doors/trunk that. They do stuff in such a haphazard manner that it can adversely affect certain elements of the car, like your suspension.

What good is it, if you spend $$$$ on coilovers when your car is not properly set up in the first place? I'm not talking about having the coilovers properly set up for your car. I'm talking about having your car be properly conditioned prior to any modifications. That way, when you install items like coilovers, you get to use them at it's full potential. And with any modifications, only a small adjustment is necessary to get things to work the way you wanted.

So what happens to the SC owner (or any car owner) that takes off the hood, doors and trunk and replaces it w/ carbon fiber? They also replace the seats, take off the steering wheel and put in a nifty Sparco unit. They tear out the emissions equipment. They end up changing out the stock battery for a racing battery, stuffing that inside the cabin. Lexan windows follow. So what happend? They threw off the whole balance of the car! So when you go back and install a set of coilovers for example, you have to spend more time trying to tune the coilovers...and to some extent, the coilovers may NEVER operate to it's full potential because of the "new" balance to the car. I know I'm exagerrating to some extent, but that is what I believe.

I'm just taking a very calculated approach to my car. I may sound a bit nuts, but this is something that I feel is missing from automotive "tuning", especially at a non-professional level.

Now about my grasp of the english language...I gUeSs y0uR jUsT gLaD dat I duN TyPe LiKe Dis? (How do people type like that? It took me 20 seconds to type in that distorted manner.) I'll stick to typing normally and not botch the english language. haha. There is a certain "beauty" to the english language. If you want to cuss someone out for example, you can deal a more devastating blow when you have an excellent command of the english language, rather than having people struggling to understand you . The usual "f you" responses are so plain jane nowadays that people expect it. So when you can cuss people out in a sort of "shock and awe" manner, you end up looking like this while that other person is like this
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Old 10-12-05, 03:26 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleWhoosh
Ummm it was a joke!

Well I hear it every day why some person "knows" why because a bar is a certain size, whether it's bigger, smaller, whatever, that is isn't as good as this next one. Then they start going off on how they know that the diameter causes this or that behavior. In reality, when designing a bar, the diameter only plays a partial role in things, so by simply saying the diameter of one bar is not good, you are already proving that you don't know as much as you are making it seem. There is no way to know just from a diameter measurement how one bar will behave versus another.

This is why the statements in the first post are very misleading and cause more misinformation to be spread by others who just repeat what they hear.
I understand what you're saying. I'm not saying that I know anything at all or trying to prove a point. I am taking my time w/ my car and all of it's modifications. I'm doing my research much like other people and will be testing and seeing if the products perform as well as I expect. Only I know whether I'll be happy w/ a certain product or not. I may ask questions which to you...proves my inexperience, but I certainly appreciate the feedback that I get and will apply that towards my approach and further product testing.
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Old 10-12-05, 03:56 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Streamline
I am taking my time w/ my car and all of it's modifications. I'm doing my research much like other people and will be testing and seeing if the products perform as well as I expect. Only I know whether I'll be happy w/ a certain product or not.
To a certain extent, I agree with your approach and that only you will know what you like. With that said, are you planning to buy the different bars to test them out? That is the only way to truly test their performance. The specs will tell you part of the story but each manufacturer would have done some level (some more than others) of R&D to build the product that best fits their criteria. They will all describe their product in the best light they can to sell the product.

How each fits your needs can only be determined by you. Unless you actually ride/drive a car with each of these products, you will not be able to get the whole story. The only thing you can go on is people's experience with a product. You've already said that the Daizens get good feedback. I am sure not everyone has the same goal but the Daizen owners are happy with all the different needs each owner has. That should tell you something.

You are also asking for feedback on the other bars. As with the Daizens, it will be experience from other owners. What if they are all positive too? How will you then decide on what to go with? What if brand X had a few unhappy owners and the others were all positive? Furthermore, what if brand X happens to be what you are looking for but you have possibly removed it from contention because some people did not like it.

If you are discounting the Daizen bars because of its size, you are doing a disservice to the product. Larger does not mean stiffer (ride quality wise). I cannot speak for the SC bars but I have the GS version. I also had the GS version of the TRDs. Both has their pros and cons but the Daizens seem to be better designed for street use with minimal loss of ride quality. Daizen's goals for each car may be different so the approach may be different on the SC vs the GS BUT they do their homework to address what is needed in each car's suspension.

I am not saying that Daizens are better or worse than the other bars on your list. If you had said that you drove a car with the Daizen bars installed and did not like it, I would not even blink. Removing it from consideration because of its size will make you lose out on trying a nice product. In the end, it's your car, your money, and your call to make.
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Old 10-12-05, 12:44 PM   #19
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Good read for those who don't understand how sway bars work:
http://www.houseofthud.com/cartech/swaybars.htm

IMHO, the main 3 points to consider when buying performance sways are the spring rate, weight of the bars, and then the material. The stiffer is better but there is a certain point where the stiffness can become adverse on a street car. Weight....as I said before, losing weight is always a welcome advantage with the SC. Material-wise, you wouldn't want titanium sways as they would lose their ability to function in less than a year. Steel is proven to last but I'm not familiar with how chromoly holds up over time when used as a spring like this. Considering those 3 points, it's just a matter of how much $$ to spend. I've said before in the coilover discussions...suspension is what makes or breaks a car for me so I refuse to skimp on suspension when it comes to whats best.

More info for the discussion
(these are all JZZ30 Soarer specific)

Do Luck Sways
Size, Weight, and Springrate not listed
Rear is 3-way adjustable

Carbing/Okuyama Sways
Front is 31.8mm and the Rear is 27.2mm, Weight, and Springrate not listed
Rear looks to be adjustable

ARC Sways
Front is 1.31X stiffer and the Rear is 2.44X stiffer, Weight, and Size not listed
not adjustable

Tanabe Sways
Front is 1.15X stiffer and the Rear is 1.65X stiffer, 30.4mm front and 27.5mm in the rear, weight is not listed. Not adjustable
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Old 10-12-05, 12:46 PM   #20
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Does anyone know of a sway bar that is specifically made for the sc400/300 chassis besides daizen?
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Old 10-12-05, 01:41 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Streamline
Thank you for the info on Daizen.

Since I own a SC300, I don't think I will have issues w/ the sway bar contacting the oil filter. I think it is only the SC400 guys right? I could be wrong. Either way, I'm thinking about purchasing an oil filter relocation kit so that I can move the oil filter to a more convenient location. I will also not get burnt knuckles/hands and I get the added benefit of running sensors for oil temp and pressure gauges.

Regarding some of my thoughts. When guys think of the SC, they think heavy. Next, weight reduction. So the next thing they do, they tear out the seats and start purchasing carbon fiber hood this and carbon fiber doors/trunk that. They do stuff in such a haphazard manner that it can adversely affect certain elements of the car, like your suspension.

What good is it, if you spend $$$$ on coilovers when your car is not properly set up in the first place? I'm not talking about having the coilovers properly set up for your car. I'm talking about having your car be properly conditioned prior to any modifications. That way, when you install items like coilovers, you get to use them at it's full potential. And with any modifications, only a small adjustment is necessary to get things to work the way you wanted.

So what happens to the SC owner (or any car owner) that takes off the hood, doors and trunk and replaces it w/ carbon fiber? They also replace the seats, take off the steering wheel and put in a nifty Sparco unit. They tear out the emissions equipment. They end up changing out the stock battery for a racing battery, stuffing that inside the cabin. Lexan windows follow. So what happend? They threw off the whole balance of the car! So when you go back and install a set of coilovers for example, you have to spend more time trying to tune the coilovers...and to some extent, the coilovers may NEVER operate to it's full potential because of the "new" balance to the car. I know I'm exagerrating to some extent, but that is what I believe.

I'm just taking a very calculated approach to my car. I may sound a bit nuts, but this is something that I feel is missing from automotive "tuning", especially at a non-professional level.
I always thought the best "balance" was 50/50 weight distribution. Most weight reducing mods like CF hoods, doors, lightweight seats and batteries actually help the balance of the car by removing excess weight in the front and/or moivng it to the rear. I'm not sure how you think these would throw of "balance" when they can noticebly improve on handling.

BTW the oil filter is only a problem with SC400's. All you need is supra subframe mounts then you can use any supra bar. Your best bet would be to get an adjustable one such as the titan since you can choose what kind of stifness you want.

Last edited by jacques; 10-12-05 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 10-14-05, 12:33 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verylost
Does anyone know of a sway bar that is specifically made for the sc400/300 chassis besides daizen?
you are "verylost".....read my post that's right above yours...all of them are SC specific sways
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Old 10-14-05, 12:56 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roo
Good read for those who don't understand how sway bars work:
http://www.houseofthud.com/cartech/swaybars.htm

IMHO, the main 3 points to consider when buying performance sways are the spring rate, weight of the bars, and then the material. The stiffer is better but there is a certain point where the stiffness can become adverse on a street car. Weight....as I said before, losing weight is always a welcome advantage with the SC. Material-wise, you wouldn't want titanium sways as they would lose their ability to function in less than a year. Steel is proven to last but I'm not familiar with how chromoly holds up over time when used as a spring like this. Considering those 3 points, it's just a matter of how much $$ to spend. I've said before in the coilover discussions...suspension is what makes or breaks a car for me so I refuse to skimp on suspension when it comes to whats best.

More info for the discussion
(these are all JZZ30 Soarer specific)

Do Luck Sways
Size, Weight, and Springrate not listed
Rear is 3-way adjustable

Carbing/Okuyama Sways
Front is 31.8mm and the Rear is 27.2mm, Weight, and Springrate not listed
Rear looks to be adjustable

ARC Sways
Front is 1.31X stiffer and the Rear is 2.44X stiffer, Weight, and Size not listed
not adjustable

Tanabe Sways
Front is 1.15X stiffer and the Rear is 1.65X stiffer, 30.4mm front and 27.5mm in the rear, weight is not listed. Not adjustable
Different year cars have different stiffness bars to start with. This is why I said comparing stiffness is not the most relevant thing to be doing.
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Old 10-14-05, 12:58 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roo
you are "verylost".....read my post that's right above yours...all of them are SC specific sways
bold statements directed to a CL regular for a relative newbie here tisk tisk
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Old 10-14-05, 01:17 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleWhoosh
Different year cars have different stiffness bars to start with. This is why I said comparing stiffness is not the most relevant thing to be doing.
I posted all the info each bar had available

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleWhoosh
bold statements directed to a CL regular for a relative newbie here tisk tisk
If he's a regular he should be responsible enough to read the posts in a thread before asking a for info that is posted right above his request. This forum, above all the others I'm on, stresses searching before asking a question...hell, he has a search button in his sig....just going with the flow here, not trying to start any pissing contest on who's been a member of the board longer.
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Old 10-14-05, 01:28 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roo
I posted all the info each bar had available
Ummm, yes for the third time here in this thread, that is why the stiffness ratings are so irrelevant to a certain degree. You have no idea what they are comparing to, different years of the same cars had different stiffness OEM bars.

Even if you have a say, 1.250" diameter, .093" wall bar, and for example sakes a 1.5"/.053" bar that calculate to be the same stiffness, say, 1.9x for example, I would take a good guess that they won't behave the same.

"1.5x stiffness over the stock bar" is almost meaningless. Take into account that even the 1.5x part is rated differently by different companies and you have a whole bunch of data that means almost nothing. Yeah you can use it for something, but if you are thinking your suspension tuning and setup is so super technical, it is completely irrelevant information. You should be the first to throw all of those ratings out the window.

The only way is to buy them all, and try them all. Then whatever works for you works for you. Then when someone else asks, you can just tell them, "I have no idea what will work for you."
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Old 10-14-05, 01:29 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roo
I posted all the info each bar had available



If he's a regular he should be responsible enough to read the posts in a thread before asking a for info that is posted right above his request. This forum, above all the others I'm on, stresses searching before asking a question...hell, he has a search button in his sig....just going with the flow here, not trying to start any pissing contest on who's been a member of the board longer.
I don't mind the harsh words but I was up studying for medical school. Staying up 24+ hours does impair your vision a little. Arguing with me is OK, but Doublewhoosh is a sponsor so best not to start anything with him.

So let's get back on topic. Sway bars

So Roo, do you have any more information about those above bars? 1.15 stiffer, does that mean an increase in 15% stiffness? I don't suppose you can find out the ft-lbs until failure?
Some concrete numbers to work with would be great.

Last edited by verylost; 10-14-05 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 10-14-05, 01:55 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verylost
So Roo, do you have any more information about those above bars? 1.15 stiffer, does that mean an increase in 15% stiffness? I don't suppose you can find out the ft-lbs until failure?
Some concrete numbers to work with would be great.
Oh yeah don't forget the different bushings with the different bars will change things dramatically also, on the order of 25% stiffness or more.

The OEM bushings also had different stiffnesses for differents years too, oh yeah and the Japan version and US versions might not be the same either.
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Old 10-14-05, 02:07 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verylost
I don't mind the harsh words but I was up studying for medical school. Staying up 24+ hours does impair your vision a little. Arguing with me is OK, but Doublewhoosh is a sponsor so best not to start anything with him.

So let's get back on topic. Sway bars

So Roo, do you have any more information about those above bars? 1.15 stiffer, does that mean an increase in 15% stiffness? I don't suppose you can find out the ft-lbs until failure?
Some concrete numbers to work with would be great.
I was just giving you a hard time not trying to argue with anyone here. Let's get back to business.

I have to go back and check the info I found on the bars. It actually really sucks how little info is available. Woosh is right about testing them all on a single car to get some actual results but it's just not realistic.

In regards to the stiffness, I think a few of them had the actual spring rates posted and I calculated the increase in stiffness based on the specs of a stock sway from one of the sites. (so the stiffness increases i posted should be on the same scale but the actual increase in stiffness varies depending on the specs of your stock sways) As far as the bushing go, they will affect performance but lets stick to the spring rate of the bars themselves to keep this as simple as possible.
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Old 10-18-05, 01:17 AM   #30
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This may be backtracking a bit, but Whoosh, I've already got the Daizen bushings and am also looking into sway bars; are you saying that having your polyurethane (or any aftermarket, for that matter) bushings can increase the performance of the sways up to 25%, or having the stock bushings will decrease the sway bars' performance, or that there is a 25% "gap" (say +-12.5%)? Just trying to clarify. Thanks!
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