California considers internal combustion engine ban (at a future unspecified date)
05-16-19, 11:12 PM
#1
California considers internal combustion engine ban (at a future unspecified date)
Several articles reported on this today. Don't shoot the messenger... I'm just posting these articles up for the (quite early) heads up. I'm not surprised but I also don't see this happening just next year either. But it assuredly will at a future date. Most talk I have read about this in the last few years has pointed to sometime between 2040-2050 but nothing specific is quoted therein.
Note that the wording from CARB's Mary Nichols does not explicitly point to a potential future ban on internal combustion cars/chassis themselves but rather specifically the engines in them. "Types of vehicles" however is wildly open for interpretation.
https://leftlanenews.com/acura/8518042791558035825/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...an/3699738002/
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ine-engine-ban
https://www.autonews.com/regulation-...soline-engines
Note that the wording from CARB's Mary Nichols does not explicitly point to a potential future ban on internal combustion cars/chassis themselves but rather specifically the engines in them. "Types of vehicles" however is wildly open for interpretation.
https://leftlanenews.com/acura/8518042791558035825/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...an/3699738002/
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ine-engine-ban
https://www.autonews.com/regulation-...soline-engines
05-17-19, 06:29 AM
#3
Lexus Fanatic
California has tried hare-brained ideas like this before....like mandating laws that a certain percentage of vehicles sold, in the state, had to be electric or other alternate-fuels, then being forced to rescind the law when the public simply wouldn't buy them. Looks like history may repeat itself.
IMO, the people in public office that come up wth schemes like this sometimes act like spoiled kids, and fail to appreciate one thing...that, in the U.S., the average gas/diesel-powered vehicle of today, thanks to advances like unleaded fuels, different winter/summer gasoline blends, three-stage catalytic converters, computerized engine controls, special combustion chambers in the engines, platinum spark plugs, regular emissions-inspections, and, for diesels, urea-injection techniques, contributes less than one percent of the amount of pollution of the unregulated vehicle before the 1970s. That's an enormous achievement, and the people in public office should be more thankful for that, instead of trying to run gas/diesel-powered vehicles off the market...especially when the public is not likely to go along with it.
Originally Posted by KahnBB6
Don't shoot the messenger... I'm just posting these articles up for the (quite early) heads up.
I also don't see this happening just next year either. But it assuredly will at a future date. Most talk I have read about this in the last few years has pointed to sometime between 2040-2050 but nothing specific is quoted therein.
Maybe (?) at some date far off in the future. With present levels of technology, I don't see it happening any time soon, either. Too many people simply depend (and will depend) on ICEs for daily transportation.
Last edited by mmarshall; 05-17-19 at 06:44 AM.
05-17-19, 06:51 AM
#4
Advanced
Dannemark is banning classical combustion engines in a few years.
Germany is talking about it.
China is thinking his whole expansion plan over.
And California seem to be part of the race.
We are not speaking of making a dumb, reckless plan. But an exit of classical fuel engines is a logical move.
After that, they are many different sources of propulsion. Like air, water,, hydrogen, or eletricity. Hydrogen could be made for a reasonnable amount of money and without needing coal, gas and nuclear energy in africa and arabian countries. But hydrogene is actually not the best solution, because of the other part of transport and production consuming energy themselves.
Electricity is better placed, but it requires light cars with extremely low aerodynamic drag coefficient. The market has still to start making electrical vehicules. For the moment, we just have clumsy adaptations of 80's design vehicule techology with electric powering.
Germany is talking about it.
China is thinking his whole expansion plan over.
And California seem to be part of the race.
We are not speaking of making a dumb, reckless plan. But an exit of classical fuel engines is a logical move.
After that, they are many different sources of propulsion. Like air, water,, hydrogen, or eletricity. Hydrogen could be made for a reasonnable amount of money and without needing coal, gas and nuclear energy in africa and arabian countries. But hydrogene is actually not the best solution, because of the other part of transport and production consuming energy themselves.
Electricity is better placed, but it requires light cars with extremely low aerodynamic drag coefficient. The market has still to start making electrical vehicules. For the moment, we just have clumsy adaptations of 80's design vehicule techology with electric powering.
05-17-19, 07:02 AM
#5
Lexus Fanatic
Don't take my previous comment the wrong way.....I was not aiming it at you personally. But that was just my point.....that we heard exactly the same thing before, when California tried (unsuccessfully) to legislate electric-car sales, that we are hearing again now....that was logical, necessary, inevitable, and part of history...Blah, Blah, Blah. It turned out to be none of those...and it probably won't be this time, either. If they persist with it, the public is likely to simply vote new people into office.
Denmark is a very small country, with only a minuscule amount of vehicles compared to the U.S., or even to California, for that matter. It's easier to enact and enforce that kind of legislation there....assuming that the public there buys it.
Unfortunately, China is not a democracy, and public officials generally don't have to worry about re-election....public opinion makes little difference there. Still, good luck enforcing it in a country that huge.
Germany is an interesting case, as, population-wise, they are the largest country in Europe, a democracy, and have a large number of vehicles....though still only one-fourth the size of the U.S. We'll see if it works there.....I won't comment any further on that part of it.
Dannemark is banning classical combustion engines in a few years.
Denmark is a very small country, with only a minuscule amount of vehicles compared to the U.S., or even to California, for that matter. It's easier to enact and enforce that kind of legislation there....assuming that the public there buys it.
China is thinking his whole expansion plan over.
Unfortunately, China is not a democracy, and public officials generally don't have to worry about re-election....public opinion makes little difference there. Still, good luck enforcing it in a country that huge.
Germany is talking about it.
Germany is an interesting case, as, population-wise, they are the largest country in Europe, a democracy, and have a large number of vehicles....though still only one-fourth the size of the U.S. We'll see if it works there.....I won't comment any further on that part of it.
Last edited by mmarshall; 05-17-19 at 07:12 AM.
05-17-19, 08:28 AM
#6
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
people die whether there’s gas engine cars or not.
gas engines in fire trucks, ambulances, boats, etc. and transportation in general have saved and enabled the prosperity of billions so your point is at the very least, incomplete, but ok, basically completely wrong.
25% of pollution today is from electricity generation. If we went rapidly to electric cars, there’s no way we could put up enough solar cells and wind farms to supply electricity for all of them.
The big ‘evil’ coal is rapidly being phased out for natural gas, and emissions are more easily controlled.
California will continue to enact ‘feel good’ legislation and then back off when it’s shown to be liberal fantasy.
Electric vehicles are still highly impractical for the vast majority of people. Even in progressive Europe they won’t work yet for millions because they live in apartments and there’s no practical charging option.
What WILL change everything long before stupid california legislation is self-driving vehicles. People will have faster, cheaper, and better transportation than has ever existed in history. THAT is a game changer and coincidentally, that CAN work with electric cars which can go to ‘off site’ points to recharge themselves (converted old airports, abandoned malls, etc. we have no shortage of concrete ready to be turned into mass recharging stations).
Meanwhile, California legislators will put out vague garbage like this to secure the feel good vote, to stay in office. And meanwhile, companies and people will leave Taxifornia in high numbers, just like they’re fleeing other high tax high regulation states like NY in HUGE numbers.
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05-17-19, 12:51 PM
#8
"Forget it, Jake, it's Chinatown."
That's for all you fans of Jack Nicholson.
My point is that it's California, the land of touchy-feely, where an idea doesn't have to make any sense as long as it makes you feel good about yourself. Was born and lived there for the first 40 years of my life, but my, how the place has changed.
I do think ICE vehicles will be banned about the same time as cow emissions are also banned, air travel is banned, and the state is covered with a million miles of 240mph trains.
In other words, never. But it feels good to say this kind of BS, doesn't it?
That's for all you fans of Jack Nicholson.
My point is that it's California, the land of touchy-feely, where an idea doesn't have to make any sense as long as it makes you feel good about yourself. Was born and lived there for the first 40 years of my life, but my, how the place has changed.
I do think ICE vehicles will be banned about the same time as cow emissions are also banned, air travel is banned, and the state is covered with a million miles of 240mph trains.
In other words, never. But it feels good to say this kind of BS, doesn't it?
05-17-19, 04:39 PM
#9
This will happen in the future but not at this present time. I am concerned about how well even extremely highly maintained yet older vehicles will fare in CA emission testing though. Eventually California will do this but they have a lot of work to do revamping the electrical grid, getting EV chargers legislated as a requirement in all rented apartment parking spots and on side streets in front of dwellings (good luck owning an EV as an apartment renter in CA when even a simple 110V outlet is not available in your parking spot) and fighting to expand their subway, rail and general mass transit systems.
As it is right now, as a former resident myself, I cannot see how this could happen in CA before 2040 at the earliest and 2050 more realistically. A lot of infrastructure build-out has to happen first.
But I do see improvements in EV and battery technology inching forward every year. And as long as Right To Repair legislation is enacted en masse and we don't get into a situation where we can't service and repair OEM EV's (and retrofitted EV's) independent of the manufacturers who originally made the hardware or the entire EV vehicles then we should have decent time transitioning and managing.
The availability of raw materials for battery supplies whether freshly mined or recycled from existing batteries is what concerns me. And why perhaps even hydrogen fuel cell stacks and hydrogen storage tanks also have a future.
Cow emissions... well if you've ever driven by "cowschwitz" (a massive collection of cattle farms) on the I-5 north of Bakersfield CA with your windows up, air recirculate on and the A/C off for good measure and still smelled the awful whiff for a solid 15-20min inside your closed up car interior it does beg the question of just how much collective cow farting with methane would be required to be that assaulting and penetrating of a sealed vehicle's interior. It's pretty overwhelming every time I go through that part of the I-5 corridor.
Airplanes aren't moving away from jet fuel any time soon just due to the physics of how much thrust and sustained power is needed but there are some small strides in electric aircraft at the moment. Air travel and flight will never be banned-- ever. Not happening. But eventually we'll get beyond using those magnificent, thundering Pratt & Whitney, GE and Rolls-Royce jet turbine engines.
Rockets will never be without some kind of combustible fuel to escape Earth's gravity.
150-200mph or even 240mph trains like Japan's Shinkansen ("bullet") or France's TGV can totally happen in the U.S. but they take a really long time to build out (and can't use traditional rail tracks that date back to 1850's design). So do additional subway lines.
Autonomous cars though... while I'm fine with the technology being available to those who want or need it, I don't think that's going to play out in reality the way the tech company hype has painted it (in their own favor no less):
https://www.autonews.com/mobility-re...till-expensive
Anyway, at current time no cars (or rather specifically combustion engines) are being banned even though I do think that will eventually come to pass in the future. Too much global industry and regulatory push in that direction to assume otherwise.
As I stated in my first post, this thread is intended as a very early heads up about what the current lowdown looks to be, at least from the perspective of California's Air Resources Board.
As it is right now, as a former resident myself, I cannot see how this could happen in CA before 2040 at the earliest and 2050 more realistically. A lot of infrastructure build-out has to happen first.
But I do see improvements in EV and battery technology inching forward every year. And as long as Right To Repair legislation is enacted en masse and we don't get into a situation where we can't service and repair OEM EV's (and retrofitted EV's) independent of the manufacturers who originally made the hardware or the entire EV vehicles then we should have decent time transitioning and managing.
The availability of raw materials for battery supplies whether freshly mined or recycled from existing batteries is what concerns me. And why perhaps even hydrogen fuel cell stacks and hydrogen storage tanks also have a future.
Cow emissions... well if you've ever driven by "cowschwitz" (a massive collection of cattle farms) on the I-5 north of Bakersfield CA with your windows up, air recirculate on and the A/C off for good measure and still smelled the awful whiff for a solid 15-20min inside your closed up car interior it does beg the question of just how much collective cow farting with methane would be required to be that assaulting and penetrating of a sealed vehicle's interior. It's pretty overwhelming every time I go through that part of the I-5 corridor.
Airplanes aren't moving away from jet fuel any time soon just due to the physics of how much thrust and sustained power is needed but there are some small strides in electric aircraft at the moment. Air travel and flight will never be banned-- ever. Not happening. But eventually we'll get beyond using those magnificent, thundering Pratt & Whitney, GE and Rolls-Royce jet turbine engines.
Rockets will never be without some kind of combustible fuel to escape Earth's gravity.
150-200mph or even 240mph trains like Japan's Shinkansen ("bullet") or France's TGV can totally happen in the U.S. but they take a really long time to build out (and can't use traditional rail tracks that date back to 1850's design). So do additional subway lines.
Autonomous cars though... while I'm fine with the technology being available to those who want or need it, I don't think that's going to play out in reality the way the tech company hype has painted it (in their own favor no less):
https://www.autonews.com/mobility-re...till-expensive
Anyway, at current time no cars (or rather specifically combustion engines) are being banned even though I do think that will eventually come to pass in the future. Too much global industry and regulatory push in that direction to assume otherwise.
As I stated in my first post, this thread is intended as a very early heads up about what the current lowdown looks to be, at least from the perspective of California's Air Resources Board.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 05-21-19 at 01:20 AM. Reason: Fixed confusingly worded sentence.
05-18-19, 10:55 AM
#11
Lexus Test Driver
LOL — what about all the pickup trucks?
This whole Global warming world is ending propaganda is a complete joke.
China, India, Russia, and many other countries pollute at rates much higher then US.
There is no automaker that even makes EV cars / SUVs / Trucks.
For ppl that ever watched the movie - Demolition Man - i think thats where liberals want society to go.
They had EV cars, no eating of meat, no physical sex. Whoever made that movie must have a time travel machine.
This whole Global warming world is ending propaganda is a complete joke.
China, India, Russia, and many other countries pollute at rates much higher then US.
There is no automaker that even makes EV cars / SUVs / Trucks.
For ppl that ever watched the movie - Demolition Man - i think thats where liberals want society to go.
They had EV cars, no eating of meat, no physical sex. Whoever made that movie must have a time travel machine.
05-19-19, 03:04 PM
#12
LOL — what about all the pickup trucks?
This whole Global warming world is ending propaganda is a complete joke.
China, India, Russia, and many other countries pollute at rates much higher then US.
There is no automaker that even makes EV cars / SUVs / Trucks.
For ppl that ever watched the movie - Demolition Man - i think thats where liberals want society to go.
They had EV cars, no eating of meat, no physical sex. Whoever made that movie must have a time travel machine.
This whole Global warming world is ending propaganda is a complete joke.
China, India, Russia, and many other countries pollute at rates much higher then US.
There is no automaker that even makes EV cars / SUVs / Trucks.
For ppl that ever watched the movie - Demolition Man - i think thats where liberals want society to go.
They had EV cars, no eating of meat, no physical sex. Whoever made that movie must have a time travel machine.
Also, you haven't heard of Bollinger? They make a Defender-like boxy full EV off-road SUV. Expensive but great. I got to see one of their early prototypes up close at the L.A. Auto Show. It's got no giant screen and inside and out is like a classic off-road vehicle. A Tesla Model X sucks compared to it.
As for EV cars... plenty are made so far? Just few actually good ones or few that aren't intended to be boring driverless taxicabs (ie: the Tesla Model 3 with its glaringly missing instrument cluster).
"Demolition Man" is a total classic cautionary dystopian film. It was over the top in 1993 and it's still over the top now. Being a film it goes to those extremes in order to show us a potential future but as a parody. At the ending you'll note it was established that Dr. Cocteau's control crazy society was going to have to merge with the underground resistance movement to become a hybrid of the two. It had to end somewhere before Sylvester Stallone kisses Sandra Bullock. It's just a movie but it's brilliant. We will have realistic VR sex in years to come but physical sex won't be banned, come on. Nor will we all be singing the Ovaltine or 50's Crest theme songs on the radio no matter how much major corporate FM radio tends to suck today.
The three seashells joke is perfection. There has never been a concrete explanation for how they work and everyone in that future world finds it hilarious that no one from the past would understand how to use them ;D
Last edited by KahnBB6; 05-19-19 at 03:24 PM.
05-20-19, 08:58 AM
#13
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Join Date: Aug 2006
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LOL — what about all the pickup trucks?
This whole Global warming world is ending propaganda is a complete joke.
China, India, Russia, and many other countries pollute at rates much higher then US.
There is no automaker that even makes EV cars / SUVs / Trucks.
For ppl that ever watched the movie - Demolition Man - i think thats where liberals want society to go.
They had EV cars, no eating of meat, no physical sex. Whoever made that movie must have a time travel machine.
This whole Global warming world is ending propaganda is a complete joke.
China, India, Russia, and many other countries pollute at rates much higher then US.
There is no automaker that even makes EV cars / SUVs / Trucks.
For ppl that ever watched the movie - Demolition Man - i think thats where liberals want society to go.
They had EV cars, no eating of meat, no physical sex. Whoever made that movie must have a time travel machine.
And for much of the 20th century, the US was the highest polluting country, only now surpassed by China. I think we are still number 2 or 3. Anyway, all that pollution in China is because of all the goods Americans are buying. If you look at it from a per person level of emissions, Im sure the US is the worst offender. Im don't really want to turn this into a global warming discussion, but its going to leak out a bit from me. We are already seeing severe weather events that are different from the patterns of just 10-15 years ago. I wonder at what point the nay sayers will go silent, probably when its too late.
If there was any chance of this kind of legislation to pass and become reality, CA would be the state to do it. We probably have the cleanest energy generation in the country.
Last edited by RXSF; 05-20-19 at 09:03 AM.
05-20-19, 09:15 AM
#14
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
let me know when they actually ship anything. reminds me of fiskar (lots of hot air).
looks mid-pack, but in fairness, per capita it's no doubt very good.
http://scorecard.goodguide.com/ranki...e=Air+releases
If there was any chance of this kind of legislation to pass and become reality, CA would be the state to do it. We probably have the cleanest energy generation in the country.
http://scorecard.goodguide.com/ranki...e=Air+releases
