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I've had a 2010 RX450h for nearly two years, and I love the car and the technology, as I've indicated on this board several times in the past.
I'd like to elaborate on several points:
(1) A "hybrid" is quite different from a "plug-in hybrid" in that all the energy for locomotion comes from gasoline. Some of that energy is stored in a relatively small battery pack and that energy is used when the ICE would be operating in an inefficient range (i.e. a high manifold vacuum). Since an ICE under high manifold vacuum is incredibly inefficient (it basically turns into a giant vacuum pump) the computer directs the electric motor(s) to propel the car temporarily for a relatively limited range. But even this limited-time switchover results in a major boost in overall fuel economy. And a proper hybrid has electric steering and electric A/C. The ICE can stay off at traffic lights or at rest until the computer thinks it's needed.
(2) Another big benefit of a hybrid is in stop-and-go driving. The increased fuel economy comes from shutting the engine off every few seconds as you modulate the accelerator pedal (shutdown and startup are effortless and unnoticeable to the driver) when the computer senses the engine would be operating in an inefficient manner. In addition a hybrid can convert kinetic energy into stored energy in the battery by using the electric motors as generators, ready for the next time the accelerator is pressed. I can easily get 30mpg in city driving, pretty remarkable for a 5,000 lb car.
(3) Lithium batteries can be very dangerous, though the danger has been largely mitigated by careful engineering. The battery in a conventional hybrid, however, is not Lithium-ion, but rather Nickel-Metal-Hydride. These cells don't have quite the capacity-to-weight ratio of Lithium but they are a very mellow chemistry by comparison, and they will also last far longer.
My understanding is that a plug-in hybrid does use Lithium technology, necessary to store enough energy to run the car for 30+ miles solely on electricity.
(4) A Hybrid car will cost more because it's a regular car PLUS a big battery pack, electric motor(s), and associated electronics. It will use less fuel though and the break-even point on overall cost is roughly five-plus years, depending on a number of variables. No tax break for a conventional Hybrid that I know of.
(5) The maintenance issue is entirely dependent on the engineering. A Toyota/Lexus hybrid product has very low maintenance cost because it is well-designed, not because only tree-huggers drive them
(6) The impact of a hybrid is basically significantly better overall mileage, plus the amazing smoothness of power delivery and the quietness of the cabin at rest. How much better mileage? In my experience I tend to get city and freeway mileage in the high-20's overall, which is, I would guess, comparable to a diesel but without a diesel's quirks. A hybrid design allows the use of a more-efficient Atkinson ICE instead of the conventional Otto-cycle engine, gaining a few additional mpg.
A caveat is that mileage is no better than a conventional ICE for the first 10 minutes or so of driving since the engine needs to warm up first. So lots of very short winter trips will result in mileage in the teens.
Here are my observations and comments on each of the 6 points of the original post.
1. Hybrid Technology is New
Hybrids do not have to be a combination of a gasoline-powered engine and an electric motor. You could combine a diesel-powered engine and an electric motor (as in a diesel-electric locomotive). Or you could combine an internal combustion engine (gasoline- or diesel-powered) and a hydraulic system, to capture and accumulate otherwise wasted braking / deceleration energy of the engine in a pressurized fluid (oil).
2. Hybrids Need To Be Charged
All electric hybrids use regenerative braking; some are just more aggressive about it. Toyota hybrids are not very aggressive about it, letting you coast when you let off the accelerator pedal but progressively using more regenerative braking the further you press down on the brake pedal.
Although I have driven one, I understand that Honda's 2-motor hybrid system (in the latest Honda Acccord Hybrid) is more aggressive about regenerative braking, starting regenerative braking as soon as you lift your foot off the accelerator.
3. Hybrid Batteries Are Dangerous
Lithium-ion batteries do have a reputation for overheating and exploding. Samsung Note 7 smartphones had problems with its lithium-ion batteries overheating and exploding. So did the lithium-ion batteries in the electrical system of the Boeing 787 jetliner.
Being the very-conservative corporation thta it is, only recently has Toyota begun to use lithium-ion batteries in its hybrid cars. Only when Toyota came up with a lithium-ion battery chemistry with reduced risks was it satisfied enough to use the higher-capacity lithium-ion battery.
4. Hybrids Are More Expensive
Yes, hybrid vehicles are more expensive, and for a very good reason: they have 2 separate powertrains (an internal combustion engine and an electric motor, for example) and a lot of engineering that allows the 2 powertrains to work together.
5. Maintenance Is Too High
If maintenance costs of hybrid vehicles are very high, as some claim, Toyota hybrids would not be the vehicle of choice of so many taxi drivers (who want to minimize their operating expenses in order to maximize profits). The hybrid battery in Toyota hybrids (one reason that Toyota stayed with the older nickel-metal hydride battery rather than use the riskier lithium-ion battery) has proven to provide trouble-free service. And with regenerative braking providing the deceleration power, mechanical brake rotors, drums and shoes last longer before requiring service or replacement.
6. Hybrids Don't Have An Impact
Hybrid vehicles are more fuel efficient than comparably-sized conventionally-powered vehicles. And because full hybrids are able to shut down their engines when stopped or running at low speeds, their total emissions are much cleaner than comparably-sized conventionally-powered vehicles.
My ES Hybrid gets equivalent fuel efficiency as my old Toyota Corolla did. I am driving a much larger car than that compact Corolla, yet burn only as much fuel and emit much less emissions.
Hybrids can have so much impact that all major European automakers are busy trying to electrify their fleets by hybridizing some and making others pure electric vehicles.
(1) A "hybrid" is quite different from a "plug-in hybrid" in that all the energy for locomotion comes from gasoline. Some of that energy is stored in a relatively small battery pack and that energy is used when the ICE would be operating in an inefficient range (i.e. a high manifold vacuum). Since an ICE under high manifold vacuum is incredibly inefficient (it basically turns into a giant vacuum pump) the computer directs the electric motor(s) to propel the car temporarily for a relatively limited range. But even this limited-time switchover results in a major boost in overall fuel economy. And a proper hybrid has electric steering and electric A/C. The ICE can stay off at traffic lights or at rest until the computer thinks it's needed.
Even apart from the extended-range, plug-in hybrids, there are actually two different types of regular hybrids......Series and Parallel. A Series hybrid essentially has an electric booster-motor mounted directly behind the primary gasoline power plant, and simply operates on-demand when more power is needed (or as a starter-motor for the gas engine when re-starting the engine from idle-stop). A Series hybrid can NOT run simply on the electric motor alone...which limits the vehicle's range and gas-mileage. A Parallel hybrid, on the other hand, allows either the gas engine or the electric motor to independently power the transmission (or both engines at once, if needed for power or acceleration). A Parallel Hybrid can run for a limited distance (depending on the level of battery-charge) on the electric motor alone. But BOTH of these types of hybrids are different from the extended-range, Plug-in Hybrid, which, though similar in basic layout to the Parallel hybrid, has a far more powerful and efficient battery and engine, and, on local trips, operates mostly off the electric motor. On longer trips, the gas engine has to step in to recharge the battery....and even on shorter trips now and then, if and when the computer decides that the gas engine has to run some simply to keep the oil and other fluids circulating and the engine-innards from deterioration from lack of lubrication.
I think they are a great idea. But from all the studies I've read, most do not recoup the added hybrid cost until a good 5-8 years into ownership. I don't think most people will keep it long enough to get their money back. Some newer Toyotas are improving on the timeframe, which is a step in the right direction.
Another deterrent is the sound the Toyota/Lexus hybrids make. The distinct electrical, mechanical, whining sound does not sound attractive to me at all. It sounds like a strained, unrefined noise, like there is friction taking place. A lighter, higher-pitched electrical sound would be more appealing in my opinion. I hope Toyota works on this.
Very anxious to hear about the new ES's hybrid numbers.
A series hybrid is similar to a series electrical circuit -- power flows through all components in turn, from the internal combustion engine to electric generator to electric motor to the wheels. In a series hybrid vehicle, the ICE never drives the wheels; the electric motor always drives the wheels.
A diesel-electric locomotive is an example of a series hybrid. An electric vehicle with a range extender that is not capable of driving the wheels is an example of a series hybrid; the BMW i3 with REx range extender is a series hybrid.
Another way to describe a series hybrid vehicle is an internal combustion engine-powered vehicle with electrical transmission (ICE turning electric generator that converts mechanical energy to electrical energy to power electric drive motor(s) that turns wheels). In contrast, a conventional powertrain is an internal combustion engine-powered vehicle with mechanical transmission (ICE turning mechanical gearbox that turns wheels).
A parallel hybrid is similar to a parallel electrical circuit -- power may flow through any OR all of the components, from the internal combustion engine to the wheels, from the electrical motor to the wheels, or from the ICE to the electric motor to the wheels. In a parallel hybrid vehicle, either the ICE or the electric motor, or both the engine and the motor together may drive the wheels.
The European automakers (e.g. Audi, BMW, MB, Volvo), the Korean automakers (Hyundai, Kia) and General Motors eAssist mild hybrids use parallel hybrids. In these simple hybrids, the electric motor replaces both the starter and the alternator (generator), thus serving 2 purposes: start the vehicle (and perhaps assist the ICE by providing a boost of power) and generate electricity (but never do both at the same time).
I wish more folks could experience the NSX. I have such a good time driving it. The electric mode is nice and quiet for stealthy arrivals and get aways.
My Q50S Hybrid gets 9-10 more mpg than a regular Q50. I don't care about the dollar pay back, just nice to have more power and much lower fuel use.
The European automakers (e.g. Audi, BMW, MB, Volvo), the Korean automakers (Hyundai, Kia) and General Motors eAssist mild hybrids use parallel hybrids. In these simple hybrids, the electric motor replaces both the starter and the alternator (generator), thus serving 2 purposes: start the vehicle (and perhaps assist the ICE by providing a boost of power) and generate electricity (but never do both at the same time).
what is the difference between these 'simple' hybrids and toyota's hybrids?
My Q50S Hybrid gets 9-10 more mpg than a regular Q50. I don't care about the dollar pay back, just nice to have more power and much lower fuel use.
The pay back period does not concern me either. I looked at the hybrid option as just another powertrain option, the one that met my wants.
The lower fuel bills are nice but so are the other benefits -- the quiet, smooth power, the ability to shut down the engine and creep along with the engine off especially in heavy traffic, and the lower maintenance bills.
what is the difference between these 'simple' hybrids and toyota's hybrids?
The "simple" hybrids only have one electric motor-generator, so I see them as either-or powertrains -- either you use the motor to drive the vehicle or you use the motor to recharge the battery but you cannot do both. If and when the hybrid battery runs down, the vehicle is forced to run as a conventional vehicle while it charges the battery.
The "simple" hybrids only have one electric motor-generator, so I see them as either-or powertrains -- either you use the motor to drive the vehicle or you use the motor to recharge the battery but you cannot do both. If and when the hybrid battery runs down, the vehicle is forced to run as a conventional vehicle while it charges the battery.
Perhaps the simplest hybrid of all was the first system that GM used on its full-size pickups, which was a stretch to even call it a hybrid. It was essentially a shut-down system for the gas engine at idle, with an electric motor to get it started up again. The small electric motor was located in the transmission housing, and did little more than re-start the engine and help provide auxiliary power to the truck's alternator for its electrical system. Because of that, the truck was able to provide four 120V outlets...two in the bed, and two in the cab.
The pay back period does not concern me either. I looked at the hybrid option as just another powertrain option, the one that met my wants.
The lower fuel bills are nice but so are the other benefits -- the quiet, smooth power, the ability to shut down the engine and creep along with the engine off especially in heavy traffic, and the lower maintenance bills.
100 % agree. I have 62,000 miles on my 14 es300h and the brakes are still in good condition. Absolutely love how the car behaves heavy traffic. I also bought it 1st for its smoothness and 2nd for the fuel economy.
Perhaps the simplest hybrid of all was the first system that GM used on its full-size pickups, which was a stretch to even call it a hybrid. It was essentially a shut-down system for the gas engine at idle, with an electric motor to get it started up again. The small electric motor was located in the transmission housing, and did little more than re-start the engine and help provide auxiliary power to the truck's alternator for its electrical system. Because of that, the truck was able to provide four 120V outlets...two in the bed, and two in the cab.
I believe that the hybrid payback concept was first voiced by those who do not understand -- and so have come to fear -- hybrid vehicles. This payback concept was not used as an argument for not buying diesel vehicles, even though diesels also carried a premium over comparable gasoline vehicles. So why has it become such an obsession for hybrid vehicles?
Yes, hybrid vehicles come at a premium over comparable conventional-powertrain vehicles, but buying a hybrid just to spend less at the fuel pumps is a gross oversimplification of the reasons why people like me buy hybrid vehicles.
Yes, hybrid vehicles consume less fuel (my large ESh consumes only as much fuel as my much smaller, compact-sized Toyota Corolla) but there are other, not as easily-costed benefits.
The engine shuts down when the car is stopped and otherwise idling, saving fuel and reducing emissions.
The engine can remain off as the car runs slowly on battery only in heavy traffic, saving fuel and greatly reducing emissions; this is especially satisfying when driving in heavy traffic, alongside large tractor trailers spewing dirty diesel emissions.
I save wear on the mechanical brakes as the electric motor runs in reverse, placing a drag on the wheels, slowing the car and recharging the battery.
It is satisfying, from an engineer's perspective, to know that the electric drivetrain complements the gasoline engine, taking over (or assisting) the engine when the engine would not be at its most efficient; and the electric drivetrain collects and stores energy that would otherwise be wasted during coasting and deceleration, and when there is excess power from the gasoline engine during steady-state cruising.
And finally, my insurance company gives me a nice discount on my car insurance for driving a green vehicle. I was not aware of this before I purchased my ESh but it is nice.
I cannot imagine going back to a "conventional" vehicle.
The Dual Mode Hybrid is not what Mike is talking about. Mike is talking about the (very) mild, mid-2000s GMC Sierra 1500 Hybrid.
2005 GMC Sierra 1500 Extended Cab Hybrid
...The Silverado/Sierra hybrid uses electric power even less frequently. Its gasoline engine can shut down when the car is stopped (actually, when it’s braking to a stop, below 13 mph or so) and-that’s it. The batteries (three 14-volt units plus the standard 12-volt) cannot power the truck at low speeds. Nor do they help out the gasoline engine, which therefore can’t be any smaller. It’s the same 5.3-liter V-8 GM pickup buyers know and love. Because of the limited nature of this hybrid system, the benefits are mild: roughly 2 mpg in city driving and 1 mpg during the EPA’s highway cycle.
Although the GM hybrid system does not produce great gains, neither does it demand great compromises. Because the 5.3-liter V-8 is the same as that in non-hybrid pickups, its power and torque outputs are the same (295 horsepower, 325 pound-feet of torque). Acceleration, towing, and payload are undiminished. The extra hybrid gear takes up very little space-the biggest component, the three extra batteries, is under the rear seat. One interesting feature of the hybrid trucks are its four, 120-volt 20-amp AC power outlets in the cargo bed and the rear seat; but the engine must be running in order to use them.
We drove a Sierra 4×4 with the hybrid system. All hybrid-equipped Silverados and Sierras are 1500-series extended cabs. Two- or four-wheel drive is available. All controls are the same as any other GM big pickup, but there are subtle differences in the way the hybrid drives. First off, the engine fires up instantly. Because it uses a much more powerful starter motor, you don’t hear it spin for a second before the engine starts. Hold your foot on the brake and shift into Drive, and the engine shuts off. This is a non-event, however, because the electric motor continues to run all the accessories (including the air-conditioning).
Take you foot off the brake and give it some gas and the engine instantly restarts. If you do this quickly, a sensitive driver may notice a bit of hesitation before acceleration starts, and also might sometimes hear a slight clunk from the driveline when moving off from a stop. In all other driving situations-low speed acceleration, coasting, freeway driving, whatever-the hybrid powertrain is indistinguishable from any other 5.3-liter V-8.
In all, driving the hybrid-powered Sierra 1500 4×4 extended cab is little different from driving any other Sierra 1500 4×4 extended-cab. That’s both its strength and its weakness. There’s really nothing weird to get used to in driving and no sacrifices in capability, but the payoff is minor as well. The cost is $2500.
The Dual Mode Hybrid is a totally different animal. It was a 2-motor full hybrid originally developed by Allison Transmissions for buses (combining a 4-speed transmission with 2 electric motors); GM owned Allison Transmissions at the time. GM later formed a joint venture with Daimler (Mercedes-Benz) and Chrysler (Daimler owned Chrysler at the time), and later BMW, to adapt it for smaller vehicles, including pickup trucks, SUVs and cars.
The Dual Mode Hybrid was used in GM's body-on-frame full-size (GMT900) pickup trucks and SUVs, used in the 2009 Dodge Durango Hybrid and Chrysler Aspen Hybrid, and the FWD 2010 Saturn Vue 2-Mode Hybrid. And then it died a quiet death. Saturn died, taking that 2-Mode Hybrid with it. The Chrysler Aspen is no more. And MB and BMW never used it, instead preferring to use the much simpler single-motor hybrid.
05-22-18, 09:56 AM
Dispelling the Myths about Hybrid Vehicles
