WT-F is wrong with Lexus F cars? Why I left after 3 cars and 10 years
11-23-17, 09:04 AM
#1
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
WT-F is wrong with Lexus F cars? Why I left after 3 cars and 10 years
My take on why I left Lexus after 10 years of being a HUGE Lexus fanatic, one of the biggest Lexus track guys in the world (25 ISF track days), and a brand ambassador who tried to grow the F brands exposure by creating a Facebook F fan page called , F THE TRACK with over 14,000 members .
After 3 years with my ISF I wanted to move up on track. When I went to Lexus with $70,000 in hand to buy my new F car , that I thought would blow my
mind, I was greeted with a totally underwhelming RCF and an even less competitive GSF. After 10 years of F cars Lexus has not evolved at all. The cars are slower or as fast as the original 8-10 year old ISF. ����*♂️ Lexus created these cars as performance cars but they have not evolved at all . A move for a Lexus fanatic to jump into a new F car after owning an ISF would be 100% lateral. All you get is a newer interior and and some of the newer bells and whistles like HUD , and new ( poorly designed ) infotainment .
I made this video to share my story and my frustration . I know , because I would have done the same, that many will flame me and attack me but ....... deep down inside we know it's true. I get all kinds of responses to this video. Mostly positive but some will get defensive. Still wanted to share.
After 3 years with my ISF I wanted to move up on track. When I went to Lexus with $70,000 in hand to buy my new F car , that I thought would blow my
mind, I was greeted with a totally underwhelming RCF and an even less competitive GSF. After 10 years of F cars Lexus has not evolved at all. The cars are slower or as fast as the original 8-10 year old ISF. ����*♂️ Lexus created these cars as performance cars but they have not evolved at all . A move for a Lexus fanatic to jump into a new F car after owning an ISF would be 100% lateral. All you get is a newer interior and and some of the newer bells and whistles like HUD , and new ( poorly designed ) infotainment .
I made this video to share my story and my frustration . I know , because I would have done the same, that many will flame me and attack me but ....... deep down inside we know it's true. I get all kinds of responses to this video. Mostly positive but some will get defensive. Still wanted to share.
Last edited by I8ABMR; 11-23-17 at 09:08 AM.
11-23-17, 10:08 AM
#4
Pole Position
The way I see it IS-F was a one off much like LFA, it was someone's project that got green light from the management but at the time management didn't have a decision at that time if they want to pursue F brand or not. By the time they decided to go forward they got nothing cause there was no development. That's how they got stuck with 5.0. They had the twin turbo V8 in Germany but obviously decided to wait for new engine generation. Whole thing with Lexus doing nothing about their engines both na and hybrids for a very long time has caught up to them quite fast. All of the competitors have moved over to turbos completely while some pushed even further with PHEVs. Sure those are clunky PHEVs no where near solid as Toyota or Honda hybrid but they can put on doznes of miles in EV mode.
11-23-17, 10:35 AM
#5
Lexus Test Driver
I honestly believe Toyota either lacks the know how in actual engine development and/or they just don't care. I've mentioned this before and got slaughtered here and elsewhere, but I stand by those statements.
Just look at their current state of engines and the junk "dynamic forces" slithering out.
They have relied heavily on Yamaha in the past to develop any ICE that is even marginally decent. And of course there are reports that the new Supra won't even have an in-house developed engine, instead relying on a BMW-sourced engine. That says a lot to me: they either don't care and outsource or don't know how to develop anything half-way decent that isn't tuned like a hybrid prius.
The LS 500 engine, in my opinion, will also be SLOW. For all its overblown numbers, it's nothing more than another crappy "thermally efficient" dynamic force, tuned towards efficiency and hence, it WILL be a lot, lot slower than advertised.
Toyota has seriously just missed the boat. They seriously misread the market. They seriously let their engine-developing prowess fall to the wayside, probably sinking most of their engineering resources into hybrids versus anything half-way decent and it shows.
Talks of some V8tt is just vaporware. Even if they can build one, I bet it will be slow, too...and they're way too late. Assuming they can build one, by the time it hits the market, they'll be far, far behind.
Just look at their current state of engines and the junk "dynamic forces" slithering out.
They have relied heavily on Yamaha in the past to develop any ICE that is even marginally decent. And of course there are reports that the new Supra won't even have an in-house developed engine, instead relying on a BMW-sourced engine. That says a lot to me: they either don't care and outsource or don't know how to develop anything half-way decent that isn't tuned like a hybrid prius.
The LS 500 engine, in my opinion, will also be SLOW. For all its overblown numbers, it's nothing more than another crappy "thermally efficient" dynamic force, tuned towards efficiency and hence, it WILL be a lot, lot slower than advertised.
Toyota has seriously just missed the boat. They seriously misread the market. They seriously let their engine-developing prowess fall to the wayside, probably sinking most of their engineering resources into hybrids versus anything half-way decent and it shows.
Talks of some V8tt is just vaporware. Even if they can build one, I bet it will be slow, too...and they're way too late. Assuming they can build one, by the time it hits the market, they'll be far, far behind.
11-23-17, 10:45 AM
#6
I honestly believe Toyota either lacks the know how in actual engine development and/or they just don't care. I've mentioned this before and got slaughtered here and elsewhere, but I stand by those statements.
Just look at their current state of engines and the junk "dynamic forces" slithering out.
They have relied heavily on Yamaha in the past to develop any ICE that is even marginally decent. And of course there are reports that the new Supra won't even have an in-house developed engine, instead relying on a BMW-sourced engine. That says a lot to me: they either don't care and outsource or don't know how to develop anything half-way decent that isn't tuned like a hybrid prius.
The LS 500 engine, in my opinion, will also be SLOW. For all its overblown numbers, it's nothing more than another crappy "thermally efficient" dynamic force, tuned towards efficiency and hence, it WILL be a lot, lot slower than advertised. TTV8 will believe it when I see it.
Toyota has seriously just missed the boat. They seriously misread the market. They seriously let their engine-developing prowess fall to the wayside, probably sinking most of their engineering resources into hybrids versus anything half-way decent and it shows.
Talks of some V8tt is just vaporware. Even if they can build one, I bet it will be slow, too...and they're way too late. Assuming they can build one, by the time it hits the market, they'll be far, far behind.
Just look at their current state of engines and the junk "dynamic forces" slithering out.
They have relied heavily on Yamaha in the past to develop any ICE that is even marginally decent. And of course there are reports that the new Supra won't even have an in-house developed engine, instead relying on a BMW-sourced engine. That says a lot to me: they either don't care and outsource or don't know how to develop anything half-way decent that isn't tuned like a hybrid prius.
The LS 500 engine, in my opinion, will also be SLOW. For all its overblown numbers, it's nothing more than another crappy "thermally efficient" dynamic force, tuned towards efficiency and hence, it WILL be a lot, lot slower than advertised. TTV8 will believe it when I see it.
Toyota has seriously just missed the boat. They seriously misread the market. They seriously let their engine-developing prowess fall to the wayside, probably sinking most of their engineering resources into hybrids versus anything half-way decent and it shows.
Talks of some V8tt is just vaporware. Even if they can build one, I bet it will be slow, too...and they're way too late. Assuming they can build one, by the time it hits the market, they'll be far, far behind.
I like the TTV6 going in the LS500 engine I think it would be better in a lighter chassis but it's not even out yet got to give it some time to see how it does. And yes the "New Supra" should have it's own engine also.
11-23-17, 12:44 PM
#7
Lexus Test Driver
Toyota is best at building reliable appliances not performance cars, engines etc.
They are behind even on hybrid tech not to mention EVs.
You dont just wake up 1 day and say you want to compete with M and AMG. Those cars took decades to evolve and develop; they are also part of the development from the beginning not an afterthought like the RCF/GSF.
They are behind even on hybrid tech not to mention EVs.
You dont just wake up 1 day and say you want to compete with M and AMG. Those cars took decades to evolve and develop; they are also part of the development from the beginning not an afterthought like the RCF/GSF.
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11-23-17, 12:50 PM
#8
Before I watched the video, and based on the thread title, I thought you would buy an AMG.
But even this is better than lexus performance. Lexus has fallen way behind premium and mainstream brands in terms of raw performance.
Lexus is being mopped by the germans, chevy, ford.
People who buy the //M don't even cross shop the Lexus F's
But even this is better than lexus performance. Lexus has fallen way behind premium and mainstream brands in terms of raw performance.
Lexus is being mopped by the germans, chevy, ford.
People who buy the //M don't even cross shop the Lexus F's
11-23-17, 01:19 PM
#9
Lexus Test Driver
I think Lexus is right on track with realistic performance and market needs. They have expanded their F-Sport line-up to just about every car. While these cars do not add performance, they have the appearance of such. This is what most people are looking for, and this is what's leading to expanded sales. Makes perfect sense from a marketing standpoint- a success. Niche cars like the original ISF were rare and the exception, and did not sell all that well. I rather see Lexus focus on a healthy bottom line, selling to the masses, with some sport injected into the equation. I will say however, it's a mistake not offering an ISF with the current model. Sedans sell better than coupes.
The one-off ISF will go down in history as a very special, unique offering. I'd seriously search for one as a preservation vehicle, if I had the means for a spare car.
The one-off ISF will go down in history as a very special, unique offering. I'd seriously search for one as a preservation vehicle, if I had the means for a spare car.
11-23-17, 06:14 PM
#10
I agree with what you're saying in your video, but it dates back to the beginning of the Lexus brand. WAY before the IS-F.
Lexus always came in second when it came to the power/handling game. It's almost like they wait for the Germans to make a great product, take some time to study that product, than spend the next several years developing their own version of it that will be alot more reliable. Sadly, by the time they do that, the Germans are already one step ahead and come out with something more powerful and more competitive and ground breaking, but often times less reliable.
It's been like this since 1990.
Lexus always came in second when it came to the power/handling game. It's almost like they wait for the Germans to make a great product, take some time to study that product, than spend the next several years developing their own version of it that will be alot more reliable. Sadly, by the time they do that, the Germans are already one step ahead and come out with something more powerful and more competitive and ground breaking, but often times less reliable.
It's been like this since 1990.
11-23-17, 07:05 PM
#11
Lexus Champion
IMO you can criticize a lot when it comes to Lexus in terms of styling in the last 15 years. It's gone a little wonky. Drive train development? Sure. But Toyota is a mass market company and they sell cars to regular customers, not people who run in a high end, track and race crowd. The average Lexus buyer is looking at RX and ES vehicles.
The issue is that F as a division is barely over a decade old. The other guys have spent somewhere between 30 and 40 years at this game. You can look at them all and see when the Germans started all of this. ///M, AMG and Audi's S and then RS lines. They have origin stories deep in the 1970's and 1980's. That's a heck of a lot of pedigree to compete against.
It's totally unrealistic to sell out your reliability reputation to Fast and Furious Ricky Racers when that's a niche market which the Germans have always owned, along with the Italians and at one time the Briddish.
The issue is that F as a division is barely over a decade old. The other guys have spent somewhere between 30 and 40 years at this game. You can look at them all and see when the Germans started all of this. ///M, AMG and Audi's S and then RS lines. They have origin stories deep in the 1970's and 1980's. That's a heck of a lot of pedigree to compete against.
It's totally unrealistic to sell out your reliability reputation to Fast and Furious Ricky Racers when that's a niche market which the Germans have always owned, along with the Italians and at one time the Briddish.
11-23-17, 07:13 PM
#12
Super Moderator
The issue is that F as a division is barely over a decade old. The other guys have spent somewhere between 30 and 40 years at this game. You can look at them all and see when the Germans started all of this. ///M, AMG and Audi's S and then RS lines. They have origin stories deep in the 1970's and 1980's. That's a heck of a lot of pedigree to compete against.
11-23-17, 08:02 PM
#13
Forum Administrator
iTrader: (2)
Sorry, but repost of a very long thread where this has been extensively discussed and required quite a bit of moderation.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-...-farewell.html
appreciate sharing the perspective and viewpoints (and share some of them) but please don't repost items from locked threads.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-...-farewell.html
appreciate sharing the perspective and viewpoints (and share some of them) but please don't repost items from locked threads.
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