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Let me reiterate, everyone that has ridden in my car says it is rougher than an F-Sport model. I have driven in three F-Sports, all had 19" wheels and one of them also had the Potenza RE050 tires. These are the same tires that are on my car (although the F-Sport has a staggered setup, whereas mine is square). It's not my imagination. My wife, my 16 year old son, my friend and the salesperson at the Lexus Dealership all same the same thing, "wow, this is a very firm ride, not at all luxurious."
Of course the Service Department says everything "checks out" and "it's normal". So I should get my car back tomorrow or Wednesday.
So why does my luxury packaged car ride rougher than the three F-Sports?
Since I have a loaner, I decided to do a little tinkering (lol). Why the hell does this 2014 F-Sport (this is the one with the same tires/wheel size) ride so much better than my car? Someone mentioned that there are motors on top of each shock that turn/tune the shocks. Easy enough, there are three 14mm bolts securing the motor cover...let's look.
There it is. I wonder if I can manually adjust the shocks and leave the motors unplugged. When I took the cover off of the driver's side shock, guess what? (this is still the loaner car) the motor is loose and is able to spin freely. It obviously is NOT adjusting the shock like it's supposed to. It's hard to tell from my photo, but the motors are anchored by the shiny metal clips on each side. I would call it a "friction fit". So I "form" the metal tabs/clips on the driver's side motor, it now fits very snugly on top of the shock. Put everything back together and it rides even better than before!
Just a wild *** guess, but couldn't something like this be the problem with my car? As I have described it before, it feels like it is stuck in Sport+ mode...so maybe, just maybe it actually is!!
Sounds like you outsmarted the service department. Request that you accompany a mechanic in the bay at the dealer, and go through this with him on your car. It's very possible the motor dislodged after cranking the suspension down. The shock could have been over compressed during assembly and one hit to Sport+ put the rod beyond adjustable limits of the motor. Any number of things related to that system could be wrong but I think you're on the right track.
Dave, do you know the compliance plate year, or year of manufacture of the three F Sport models?
Before you took the 2015 F Sport for a spin with the sales rep, did you check the air pressure with an air pressure gauge, and did you note the tires used?
Your current 2014 F Sport loan car, do you know what are the cold air pressures early in the morning, and what make model tires are used?
As far as I know, from 2015 onwards, the part numbers for the front coil springs and front shock absorbers are different, and the ride is firmer and much more controlled.
Also, from 2015 onwards, the adhesive used in the front windscreen is stronger, giving the GS a stronger A pillar, and greater torsional rigidity and bending stiffness.
If I remember correctly, 2015 also included the move from HDD-based sat nav, to micro SD card-based sat nav, and in 2015 the sat nav software is improved too.
The part numbers for the rear suspension, and the sway bars were the same for 2013 vs 2015.
Lexus advised me to retrofit the original front coils and original front electronic shockies from the 2013 luxury model, and I also retrofitted 18" alloys on new 235/45R18 tires too, but it was worth it; I only wished I had have moved to Pirellis as well, because although the new Dunlop Sport Maxx 050 235/45R18's are quieter, they are still progressively loud from 50 mph onwards.
My original 19" wheels look exactly like yours.
19" are big wheels, and these IMO actually make the wheelbase look shorter, and the car look smaller.
I would have to agree that the OEM 19" look more attractive than my aftermarket 18", but my aftermarket looks good enough, and I get a much better ride.
If I put my original OEM 19" back on with my retrofitted 2013 front suspension, the car is too firm and too noisy for me, but damn sharp handling almost like a compact car.
It all boils down to what level of handling/ride refinement compromise you're after.
The softer set up has fewer creaks and rattles too...
Wow, if that's a pic of your car on 18" wheels it looks great. I'm going to play with the adjustable shocks prior to making any suspension/tire purchases. My hopes are to get the ride as good as the F-Sport. I can live with that.
As I mentioned the tires are Potenza 050A. The tire pressure is 32/33 on the loaner and on my car. I'm no expert, but I have been around cars long enough to know that there's more in play here than just tire pressure. If things don't work out with the shock motors/settings, I'll follow your lead and look into 18".
Sounds like you outsmarted the service department. Request that you accompany a mechanic in the bay at the dealer, and go through this with him on your car. It's very possible the motor dislodged after cranking the suspension down. The shock could have been over compressed during assembly and one hit to Sport+ put the rod beyond adjustable limits of the motor. Any number of things related to that system could be wrong but I think you're on the right track.
Thanks for the support. It's interesting that the sales person agreed that the ride was very stiff, but when the service department declared, "it's okay" she seemed to back off. Positive thoughts, positive thoughts...wouldn't it be great if just a couple of the motors came loose...positive thoughts.
Wow, if that's a pic of your car on 18" wheels it looks great. I'm going to play with the adjustable shocks prior to making any suspension/tire purchases. My hopes are to get the ride as good as the F-Sport. I can live with that.
As I mentioned the tires are Potenza 050A. The tire pressure is 32/33 on the loaner and on my car. I'm no expert, but I have been around cars long enough to know that there's more in play here than just tire pressure. If things don't work out with the shock motors/settings, I'll follow your lead and look into 18".
LOL, okay I just realized that's a pic of my car. It does look great!
I'm resigned to the fact that our cars are going to have rattles and what not. It's really odd....there are good and bad days where I feel that the suspension absorbs bumps very well. Other days, the exact same bumps I go over feel extremely pronounced, I can hear various creaks and rattles all throughout the car. It's rather frustrating. I am talking about PSI being static as well in these situations.
I used to the have the P7 Pirelli's on my 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD. THey were great tires. Maybe I need to go back to that, because honestly, I am wary of blasting the music everytime I know I will be going in a rough patch area. Even though the TL had a MUCH firmer ride, the creaks weren't as bad. I feel that the rattles and what not really make this car at times feel it was pieced together rather than one solid chunk. I want to go to the dealership, my car has 36k miles on it only when I bought it, but I don't want them to tear apart my interior to have to fix this. I feel this would ruin the integrity of how the panels are put together, and can only possibly make things worse if taken apart..
Or in truth, I don't mind the Toyoda grandson be into sporty cars - I just wished that Lexus developed "two" totally different suspension set ups: one for luxury, and a second for the F Sport.
As it presently stands, it seems as though the GS has only the one suspension set up, with the Luxury model gaining both electronic shock absorbers and active electric steering wheel, while the F Sport gaining electronic shock absorbers, an active electric steering wheel, and active rear wheel steering as well; apart from that, the different trims vary in wheel sizes, and tire sizes, plus tire make and model...
Or in truth, I don't mind the Toyoda grandson be into sporty cars - I just wished that Lexus developed "two" totally different suspension set ups: one for luxury, and a second for the F Sport.
As it presently stands, it seems as though the GS has only the one suspension set up, with the Luxury model gaining both electronic shock absorbers and active electric steering wheel, while the F Sport gaining electronic shock absorbers, an active electric steering wheel, and active rear wheel steering as well; apart from that, the different trims vary in wheel sizes, and tire sizes, plus tire make and model...
I think there's some model confusion here. The GS is supposed to be sporty regardless of trim. If you want soft, the ES and LS are better choices.
I heard that:
LS was Luxury Sports
GS was Grand Sports
ES was Executive Sports
IS was Intelligent Sports
CT was Compact Touring?
Others say that:
LS is Luxury Sedan
GS is Grand Sedan
ES is Executive Sedan
HS is Harmonious Sedan.
LX Luxury Xover
RX Radiant Xover
NX Nimble Xover.
There is very little there to say that one model should be sportier than the other?
I find that my wife's 2014 3IS250 has actually more compliant suspension than my 2015 4GS, but despite its compliancy, the slightly less mass, and more importantly, the more compact dimensions ensure that the IS changes directions really really quickly compared to 4GS.
My previous generation 2010 3GS350 had a sumptuous ride, but even then, there was really only the one suspension setting, with variation in wheel sizes like 17" vs 18", and non-electronic vs electronic variable shock absorbers - for both the GS450h gasoline-electric hybrid, and the GS460 V8.
However, unlike the current IS/GS relationship, my 2006 2IS250 is very very firmly sprung and damped!
More importantly, does anyone know if rivals like E Class & 5 Series are actually available in at least two "genuinely" different suspension settings?
Not just changing the wheel and tire sizes and tire make/model, but actually changing the spring, damper and roll bar rates?
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1. My 2013 GS rode great. Yes it was firmly sprung compared to my ES's and LS's, but the ride was very controlled and never harsh. If Lexus truly did firm up the suspension on the 2015, then that shows you their mission with that model.
2. The fact that Lexus has the ES lets them make the GS a sportier car. Same with the IS. This has been said time and time again. BMW and Mercedes aren't in that situation, they don't have two midsized entries, so the 5 and E have to be both, which makes them not as good at one.
3. This is why they have choices. Instead of wishing the GS were something it's not and isn't supposed to be, why not simply buy a car that actually is what you want it to be already?
It sounds like the OP's car has an issue with the suspension, but in general yes, the GS is a firmly sprung sports sedan, and that's what it's designed to be.
Also don't read into the model designations. They actually aren't supposed to mean anything. What does "NX" mean? Nothing.
Hi Steve. What you say about Lexus having two midsize cars in the entry level softer front drive 6.5ES, and the more upmarket and sportier rear drive 4.5GS - is very true today.
However, historically back in the old days, things were very different.
Toyota used to make their cars available in both sedan and four door hardtop.
The hardtop version wouldn't just look cosmetically different with a 1" lower standing height, frameless windows, and different front and rear ends - often the interior would be totally different, and often the hardtop versions would have totally different suspension settings.
The platforms and engines beneath would be the same.
Thus, historically the Toyota Camry had a Toyota Camry Prominent/Windom hardtop derivative, which actually used firmer springs, firmer dampers, and firmer roll bars!
Back in the late 1980's that Toyota Camry Prominent Hardtop was rebadged to become the first generation Lexus 1ES250.
The first three generations of Lexus ES's had firm sporty suspension - firmer than the Lexus GS of the same era!
They used to say that the ES had "heavy duty" coils, dampers and roll bars over the Camry.
My 1996-01 Lexus 3ES300 was so firm, that I had to change it for nice soft 1996-01 Toyota Camry suspension.
Also worthy of note, today's 4GS is by far the most firmly supended GS of the past four generations.
I never test drove the 1GS, but the 2GS was only a touch firm, while the 3GS was very soft.
Back in the 80's and 90's, it was the ES that was firm - however with a short wheelbase, long front overhangs, and the weight of a V6 hanging in front of the front axle and front wheel drive, the early firmly sprung ES's got no where in handling.
Roughly 8 years ago, it was the late Mr Toyoda's grandson, Aicho Toyoda who took over the reign, and who stipulated that all Toyota and Lexus vehicles from here on must have more emotional styling and dynamics to mimic the great European marques...
1988-92 Toyota Camry
1988-92 The same Toyota Camry in Prominent Hardtop version.
1989-91 The same Toyota Camry Prominent Hardtop in Lexus 1ES250.
1991-96 Toyota Camry
1991-96 The same Toyota Camry in Vista Hardtop
Does it look familiar?
It was even available in full time 4WD!!!!!!
Back in the 80's and 90's, Toyota had a wide range of small capacity 2.0/2.5/3.0 in-line sixes with twin turbos, and AWD...
1991-96 The same Toyota Camry Vista Hardtop in Lexus 2ES300
1996-01 Toyota Camry
1996-01 Toyota Camry Windom Hardtop
1996-01 The same Toyota Camry Windom Hardtop rebadged as a Lexus 3ES300.
There are other Toyota sedans, with corresponding upmarket sporty hardtops:
1991-95 Corolla
1991-95 The same Toyota Corolla in Sprinter Hardtop version.
Not just different looking, but different suspension settings too.
However, the platform and engines beneath are essentially the same.
1992-96 Toyota Carina [compact Europe]
1992-96 Toyota Carina ED Hardtop [Japanese Domestic Market JDM]
1984-88 Toyota Cressida
1984-88 Toyota Cressida in Mark II Hardtop
1987-91 Toyota Crown Sedan
1987-91 Toyota Crown in Hardtop version.
1991-97 Toyota Crown Hardtop
By 1991, the Toyota Crown spawned the sportier full window framed Toyota Aristo, which was rebadged into the Lexus GS300 sedan.
Here, the Toyota Aristo and Lexus GS300 actually use totally different exteriors, interiors and suspension tuning, while the platforms and engines are essentially the same.
1991-97 Toyota Aristo
1991-97 Lexus 1GS300
Today's 2012 onwards big Toyota Crown in sporty "Athlete" trim.
There is also a "Majesta" trim, while the standard Crown is a Crown "Royal".
Notice how the Crown has a touchscreen, as opposed to the 4GS's joy stick sat nav control?
The Toyota Crown above is today's Lexus 4GS using the same platform and engines, albeit with different styling outside and inside, and most probably firmer suspension tuning than the Toyota Crown?
The 4GS is also available in a V8, while the Toyota Crown is NOT available with a V8.
The first three generations of Lexus ES's had firm sporty suspension - firmer than the Lexus GS of the same era!
They used to say that the ES had "heavy duty" coils, dampers and roll bars over the Camry.
My 1996-01 Lexus 3ES300 was so firm, that I had to change it for nice soft 1996-01 Toyota Camry suspension.
I wouldn't agree that it was that firm a suspension. I have driven and ridden in many Gen 2 and Gen 3 ES sedans, although its been a while I never felt any of them were particularly firmly sprung. Yes my 4ES was more softly spring, but much of the reason for that was they had the IS to be the sportier car and didn't need the ES to play in both segments anymore.
I still have my 1996-01 3ES300 today.
I used to collect Car & Driver, Road & Track, and Popular Mechanics magazines etc, however they took up too much space, so I threw them away.
However, if you read some of the old magazines, they will tell you that the Lexus has heavy duty suspension over the Camry, with thicker coils, firmer damping, and thicker roll bars.
Up till about 2006, my old ES had very thumpy OEM springs, but after I changed them for a total Camry set up, it has a much softer, floatier and rolly polly ride.
The only problem I've had with ES on Camry suspension is that, probably because the Camry shock absorbers are locally made, after 5 years or so, the rear shock absorbers make a clunking noise, so have to be replaced - however I find that original OEM shock absorbers made in Japan etc, seem to last much longer, before they start making clunking noises.
I've had to replace two sets of rear Camry shock absorbers on my 1996-01 3ES300.
Today, the GS is positively firmer than ES.
However back in the 90's, the 1991-96 2ES300 had a very stern and terse ride, actually firmer than 1996-01 3ES300, because the lower roofline hardtop versions of the Toyotas were supposed to be sportier not just in styling, but also in suspension settings.
It was the GS that was soft back then.
Because I'm very sensitive to ride & refinement, over the decades, I have a lot of experience in diagnosing & swapping out suspension systems.
Normally, the aftermarket doesn't provide softer, they only provide firmer.
Just very lucky that the early ES's shared platforms with Camry for a full suspension swap.
Today, because ES runs on a longer wheelbase & somewhat heavier etc, I'd have to do more research prior to a suspension swap, because that may void car accident insurance etc.
If I'm not wrong, today's Camry actually uses firmer suspension than today's ES?
These days, I've also learnt that manufacturers often only upgrade the front coils & front shocks, such that we don't need to necessarily do a full suspension swap, changing the rear coils & dampers, as well as the sway bars...
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Definitely worth checking if the AVS is adjusted properly. My understanding is once you remove the cover, the motor is fairly easy to remove by turning counter-clockwise and lifting. I believe its total rotation is 115deg, but not sure which direction. Maybe a manual adjustment can be made?
Definitely worth checking if the AVS is adjusted properly. My understanding is once you remove the cover, the motor is fairly easy to remove by turning counter-clockwise and lifting. I believe its total rotation is 115deg, but not sure which direction. Maybe a manual adjustment can be made?
Buddy you are reading my mind!
So when I removed the motor (from the loaner, of course) you could clearly see an adjustment shaft coming from inside the shock (with a flat spot on the end). The motor has a similarly shaped opening to accept the flat area from the shock. Yes the motor seems to have a little more than a 90degree sweep area. I cannot tell which way would be "firmer" and which would be "softer". I started the car with the motor connected to the wiring harness but still disconnected from the top of the shock. The motor goes through a initiation sweep motion and then stops moving. Even when I would select Sport+ mode the motor would not move again. Not sure if I have to be moving or if there is some other variable.
Another noteworthy item, the shaft protruding from the shock spins freely in either direction. It doesn't seem to have any type of limiter.
09-05-16, 03:32 PM
