chromedome

Why does an EV need a grille? There's nothing up front except the front trunk. The previous Model S grille looked out of place on light colored cars, it only blended in on black and gray cars, whereas the new design looks clean and functional.

As for Tesla being dreadful in practice, I've test driven a Model S and I feel they're the future of motoring. Going back to a hybrid felt like stepping back into the Stone Age. The sooner we get rid of hydrocarbon fuels, the better.

Sulu

Toyota is on record for saying that they do not believe that EV batteries are ready for use in true electric vehicles (without an ICE range extender), which is why they are throwing everything behind hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.

Don't expect a Toyota or Lexus EV any time soon, unless they have sudden, unforeseen breakthrough in battery research that enables EV batteries to have much higher capacity, at much lower weight, that can charge quickly, etc., etc., etc. ...

Allen K

iTrader: (4)

I agree with Hoovey. The interiors on these things are good, not great and don't compare well with the S/7/A8/LS crowd unless all you're looking for is a giant screen

That said I really like the look of the updated front!

spwolf

I dont see it happening in next 5-6 years unless something crazy happens - for instance their next gen batteries pan out well (they said 2020-2022 for that).

They are not selling well and everyone is losing money on them. Tesla is only one that is desirable but they are also losing money on them. Rest of the manufacturers are using it as PR piece, and Toyota has hybrids and hydrogen for that.

Also, Japan does not have enough electricity so their own market is pushing hydrogen for next big thing. Unlike hybrids, which are really big there and are big driver behind Honda's push with new hybrid engines. So for EV's, they dont really have support from their biggest market.

I think EVs have to be really desirable to be purchased on merit alone and not on discounted price, and Tesla is only one doing that. Established manufacturers wont follow since they want to make money on record car market, not lose it.

RXSF

An EV doesn't need a grill. The previous Tesla didn't have a grill. A grill would imply an air intake. All it did was have a black plastic design element in the front that made it look morel like a traditional car. Without it, most people are going to think that something is missing

spwolf

i think it is new corporate face, plus it is easy way to distinguish their vehicles from others. It makes them more unique.

peteharvey

I feel that the Tesla Model S is the future of motoring too.
However presently, I find that the Model S:
1) Looks cheap like a Ford.
2) The interior looks and feels very cheap.
3) There are NO ceiling mounted grab handles, and no door mounted grab handles either, for greater security during high speed acceleration, and hi speed handling manoeuvres.
4) Because the floor stores battery cells, there is no space for rear passengers to vertically drop their legs, such that in the Model S, the rear passenger's heels are high, and the knee points uncomfortably to the sky.

In fact, the forthcoming 2019 Porsche Mission E has overcome this problem by omitting the placement of battery cells in the rear passenger footwell area.





5) Long term, I suspect the Tesla's reliability will be no better than a Ford either.

Hence, I'm hoping Lexus gets their act together quickly.
They are taking too long to get compact lightweight lithium ion batteries into their hybrids and their Toyota Mirai fuel cell vehicle as well, let alone talking about Lexus releasing an EV vehicle.

As it stands, the new Toyota Mirai FCV is nearly the size of a Camry, has very modest performance of 0-60 mph in 9 seconds, yet weighs a whopping 1,850 kg - not much lighter than a Tesla Model S, but without the Model S' blistering performance, though the Mirai could be 200 kg lighter if it were made from aluminium like the Model S.

I also suspect Toyota is miscalculating the need for long range vehicles.
Most people are happy with a couple of hundred miles, and recharging overnight and every night.
For example, cell phones used to last 1 week.
Nowadays, the iPhone barely lasts a day, yet consumers are happy with regular overnight charging, albeit every night.
Only commercial vehicles like taxis and interstate buses and trucks need true long range, with fast refill in hybrids or FCV's.
I think that in time, consumers will be used to sedans and SUV's with a 200 or 300 mile range, combined with regular overnight charging - EVERY night, as opposed to refuelling once a week.
Hence Lexus must get its act together fast.
Benz is coming out with an EV in 2018.

Long term, I think competition will kick in, and prices will fall - and that's when the Model S's weakness in the chassis/body/interior may cause Tesla to be bought out by a major car manufacturer, or alternatively, Tesla will just be a battery and electric motor supply company only, hence I really like the Model S, but I'm unwilling to buy it because I don't like its long term prospects.
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Toys4RJill

The Toyota Mirai is an electric vehicle, it just uses hydrogen and then converts it into electricity. The Tesla just adds electricity to the battery from a charging station.

Toys4RJill

Plus one to what you just said. The Tesla is absolutely the future of motoring, but electric motoring, or premium motoring. If the big manufacturers don't get their game going, they will be not be a significant factor in the future.

peteharvey

I suspect that Toyota is barking up the wrong tree here.
Hybrids, and hydrogen FCV's like the Toyota Mirai with the old fashion NiMH batteries are mainly good for long range.
However, I suspect most consumers don't need that long range, and most consumers would be happy to recharge their EV's overnight, and every night alongside their iPhones.

The other area where the hydrogen FCV's are going wrong is that FCV's require TWO generators; the first generator is the power station to produce the hydrogen, and the second generator under the bonnet for the hydrogen to generate electricity!

On the otherhand, Tesla's Model S has only the ONE generator, ie the power station, be it: solar, wind, hydraulic, geothermal, nuclear, or even coal/gas etc - to generate electricity.
With only the one generator, and no second generator under the bonnet, that's why the Tesla Model S has a front trunk with the acronym FRUNK.

Thus, the Tesla's single generator is actually more efficient than the hydrogen FCV twin generator design.
However the hydrogen fuel cell's twin generator design [at the power station & under the bonnet] is superior for long range interstate travel.
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peteharvey

Toyota need not lose face with all the money they have invested into hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, because the twin generator design of the FCV is better suited to commercial vehicles which travel very long ranges, and Toyota I think has the biggest commercial vehicle range in the world?

I want to see Lexus forget about losing face on their FCV investments, and put their heads down and produce a midsize lithium ion powered electric vehicle, which will be much more refined than these second rate Tesla Model S's, which are really no better than a Ford.

peteharvey

The only reason Tesla is getting away with their high prices is due to a lack of competition.
Once the competition sets, Tesla and Elon Musk will be gone just like de Lorean.
I suspect Tesla will eventually sell out to a major manufacturer who is much more experienced in designing the chassis/body/interior, or Tesla will simply supply batteries and electric motors only.

Toys4RJill

I don't exactly agree with you on some of the things, but on the others I do agree with you.

The idea of never having to visit a gas/hydrogen station is pretty cool. Supercar performance, unique, being part of something is also cool. The idea of buy a car inside a shopping mall and custom designing the colors etc is really cool. Then there is the super car performance, I liked how the interior was one giant computer.

peteharvey

The more we inter-convert energy from one form to another - the greater the efficiency losses.

For example, a hydrogen fuel cell must firstly use electricity from a power station to split H2O into H2, and then later on, under the bonnet, a hydrogen fuel cell generator will combine H2 with O2 to produce water H2O and release energy to charge the traditional NiMH battery.
Thus, energy is lost firstly at the power station, and then energy is lost again under the bonnet.

With an EV, energy is only lost at the power station to produce electricity.

The main advantage of FCV is that hydrogen has already been pre-stored, and pre-transported for rapid refuelling, and only roughly once a week.
With EV, storage and transportation via electrical transmission is more simple and efficient, but it takes much longer to recharge, and therefore best be done so on a daily basis.

Refilling a hydrogen gas tank is a mechanical process, and therefore quick.
Recharging a battery is actually a chemical reaction process, and therefore time consuming.

Full blown EV like the Tesla Model S is just a passive plug in once you get home.
Pull the plug out next morning.
I think most consumers will really grow to like this.
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spwolf

and here is the problem - Tesla is literally losing money on cars sold but you think they should cut their prices. EVs are expensive and getting Tesla S performance will always be expensive.

Leaf is what reasonably designed EV is and they cant literally give them away.

So your opinion of future is valid only if you are willing to shell out the dough for Tesla, otherwise we all want to drive M5 at 40k but we cant.

EV prices of Tesla, Leaf, Bolt is already reasonable and most of the cost cuts in near future will go into manufacturers pockets so they can finally make some money like they do with conventional vehicles - not to make EVs cheaper to buy than gasoline vehicleswhich would never make sense.