More EXHAUST options, X pipes etc...
12-14-01, 06:50 PM
#1
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More EXHAUST options, X pipes etc...
Just some more flowing info... Since the hot topic is X pipes, big CATS, premium exhaust/muffs...
http://www.spintechmufflers.com/spin...ntechindex.asp
http://www.corral.net/tech/powerplant/bassani2.html
http://www.magnaflow.com/03parts.htm
If any one has any more add them to the list and then we can have it posted in the exhaust section...
The Ikon
http://www.spintechmufflers.com/spin...ntechindex.asp http://www.corral.net/tech/powerplant/bassani2.html http://www.magnaflow.com/03parts.htmIf any one has any more add them to the list and then we can have it posted in the exhaust section...
The Ikon
12-14-01, 08:42 PM
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I made a mistake today.. I installed a pair of WR mufflers and took out the resonators to make way for bigger piping. Dumb, dumb, dumb.. without the silencers the car sounds like a Roush Stage 3 Mustang... loud as hell. I'm going to have some resonators installed. I suggest that if you increase your pipe size and have to remove the resonators, have some new ones installed with the right pipe size.
12-14-01, 09:09 PM
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Originally posted by MadMaxSC400
I made a mistake today.. I installed a pair of WR mufflers and took out the resonators to make way for bigger piping. Dumb, dumb, dumb.. without the silencers the car sounds like a Roush Stage 3 Mustang... loud as hell
I made a mistake today.. I installed a pair of WR mufflers and took out the resonators to make way for bigger piping. Dumb, dumb, dumb.. without the silencers the car sounds like a Roush Stage 3 Mustang... loud as hell
Are the ones you removed the two small ones just in front of the standard muffler coupling (like just in front of the rear axle?) I was wondering, as the exhaust comes down off the headers, it meets underneath in the middle in a X- connector. That connector seems like the narrowest part of the entire exhaust system. Do you think that if that cross connector was larger diameter that exhaust flow would be increased and perhaps beneficial to the performance?
12-14-01, 09:14 PM
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Originally posted by Red93sc400
Madmax:
Are the ones you removed the two small ones just in front of the standard muffler coupling (like just in front of the rear axle?) I was wondering, as the exhaust comes down off the headers, it meets underneath in the middle in a X- connector. That connector seems like the narrowest part of the entire exhaust system. Do you think that if that cross connector was larger diameter that exhaust flow would be increased and perhaps beneficial to the performance?
Madmax:
Are the ones you removed the two small ones just in front of the standard muffler coupling (like just in front of the rear axle?) I was wondering, as the exhaust comes down off the headers, it meets underneath in the middle in a X- connector. That connector seems like the narrowest part of the entire exhaust system. Do you think that if that cross connector was larger diameter that exhaust flow would be increased and perhaps beneficial to the performance?
12-15-01, 09:47 AM
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Originally posted by MadMaxSC400
I made a mistake today.. I installed a pair of WR mufflers and took out the resonators to make way for bigger piping. Dumb, dumb, dumb.. without the silencers the car sounds like a Roush Stage 3 Mustang... loud as hell. I'm going to have some resonators installed. I suggest that if you increase your pipe size and have to remove the resonators, have some new ones installed with the right pipe size.
I made a mistake today.. I installed a pair of WR mufflers and took out the resonators to make way for bigger piping. Dumb, dumb, dumb.. without the silencers the car sounds like a Roush Stage 3 Mustang... loud as hell. I'm going to have some resonators installed. I suggest that if you increase your pipe size and have to remove the resonators, have some new ones installed with the right pipe size.
12-15-01, 11:35 AM
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It is amazing that those little rear (pre muffler) cans have such an effect in noise reduction. They "must" have some restriction. I bet if we can find a similar sized can that was either glass packed or steel wool packed and had less restriction, we could increase the efficiency of the system while at the same time growling up the sound while keeping it all within livable noise ranges.
Madmax, since we have the same year car and perhaps (it sounds) yours is up on the lift alot more than is mine, can you or anyone please find measurements for those last rear resonators which are just before the rear stock muffler? They only looked to be a foot long. I would love to cut those out and put in tiny glasspacks there in their place.
BTW, guys, when the stock mufflers came off and the cat backs went in, there was ALOT of sloshing water inside my rear mufflers. It was a huge surprize as I run long distances most all of the time so I would have assumed that the condensation would have not formed.
Madmax, since we have the same year car and perhaps (it sounds) yours is up on the lift alot more than is mine, can you or anyone please find measurements for those last rear resonators which are just before the rear stock muffler? They only looked to be a foot long. I would love to cut those out and put in tiny glasspacks there in their place.
BTW, guys, when the stock mufflers came off and the cat backs went in, there was ALOT of sloshing water inside my rear mufflers. It was a huge surprize as I run long distances most all of the time so I would have assumed that the condensation would have not formed.
12-15-01, 01:59 PM
#7
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So, since the oem nufflers are straight thru muffs. Can I just remove the resonators and add a X-pipe to get a nice tone and increase air flow too? I had some cheaper hi flow muffs and the sound was not the best... I could not tell if it flowed better or not..
Last edited by The Ikon; 12-15-01 at 03:30 PM.
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12-15-01, 05:27 PM
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Im going to run an X-pipe without cats and stock mufflers when I get money and time.
Our mufflers are straight through, so you should still get a louder deeper tone, without it being too loud. Plus your car looks stock to unsuspecting people
Our mufflers are straight through, so you should still get a louder deeper tone, without it being too loud. Plus your car looks stock to unsuspecting people
12-16-01, 02:07 AM
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According to the pros some backpressure is needed for maintaining torque, and I think that's true. What I'm going to do is find the widest straight-thru resonator/muffler I can find and put it in the long sections of the pipes as they run off the cat. I'd imagine that if some place made a real cat-back mandrel bent exhaust system for the cars it'd do some good, but I don't know of anyone who does. The next best thing of course is putting in bigger pipes to compensate for the squeeze in the bends.
12-16-01, 06:40 AM
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Madmax, so you did put in a new Larger diameter X connect? Did you custom fabricate this OR was this some stock part that was repurposed for out application? Let me know and if you have a picture of it it would be cool to see what you did there.
12-16-01, 11:09 AM
#11
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MadMax,
The "backpressure" rule that many so called "experts" refer to (regurgitate) is INCORRECT.
Now, it is true that TOO large of an exhaust pipe, be it a primary header runner, a secondary pipe, a merge or collector, an X or Y or H pipe, and in some cases after, WILL reduce low speed power. The error in logic is ASUMING that the smaller pipe has MORE backpressure. In FACT at low/mid engine speeds, the smaller diameter creates HIGHER gas speeds and LOWER pressure. This is true up to the point where the smaller diameter pipe becomes TOO small to pass the gas without creating a restriction. When this occures, backpressure increases and power is restricted. Above that RPM a larger diameter pipe will increase power by reducing backpressure.
There is MUCH more to this than meets the eye but surfice to say BACKPRESSURE does NOT increase power.
Make sense?
The "backpressure" rule that many so called "experts" refer to (regurgitate) is INCORRECT.
Now, it is true that TOO large of an exhaust pipe, be it a primary header runner, a secondary pipe, a merge or collector, an X or Y or H pipe, and in some cases after, WILL reduce low speed power. The error in logic is ASUMING that the smaller pipe has MORE backpressure. In FACT at low/mid engine speeds, the smaller diameter creates HIGHER gas speeds and LOWER pressure. This is true up to the point where the smaller diameter pipe becomes TOO small to pass the gas without creating a restriction. When this occures, backpressure increases and power is restricted. Above that RPM a larger diameter pipe will increase power by reducing backpressure.
There is MUCH more to this than meets the eye but surfice to say BACKPRESSURE does NOT increase power.
Make sense?
12-16-01, 11:15 AM
#12
From my experience with exhausts on mostly 2.0,4cly cars,the size for good torque,and plenty of power up to 7,000rpm is 2",or 2 1/4" maybe.Also,from looking at various other systems that use straight through type mufflers,I noticed that they sound great when they've gotten at least 30" of resonated pipe area(combined length of perforated pipe inside the mufflers).
My plan was to fabricate a system that would look alot like the JIC one,just without the grapefruit thing goin' on in back.
I might be down a couple of horsepower from not having things optimised up towards the headpipes,but way less headaches.
The fuel curve requirements are going to change with header/headpipe changes,and I don't want to turn the car into an engineering test mule like some of my other cars have!
If MadMax gets his car all dialed-in,it may be worthwhile to have some shop try and replicate his exhaust to make available to others who have gotten the ECM mods,since they were developed together.
My plan was to fabricate a system that would look alot like the JIC one,just without the grapefruit thing goin' on in back.
I might be down a couple of horsepower from not having things optimised up towards the headpipes,but way less headaches.
The fuel curve requirements are going to change with header/headpipe changes,and I don't want to turn the car into an engineering test mule like some of my other cars have!
If MadMax gets his car all dialed-in,it may be worthwhile to have some shop try and replicate his exhaust to make available to others who have gotten the ECM mods,since they were developed together.
12-16-01, 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by jbrady
MadMax,
Now, it is true that TOO large of an exhaust pipe, be it a primary header runner, a secondary pipe, a merge or collector, an X or Y or H pipe, and in some cases after, WILL reduce low speed power. The error in logic is ASUMING that the smaller pipe has MORE backpressure. In FACT at low/mid engine speeds, the smaller diameter creates HIGHER gas speeds and LOWER pressure. This is true up to the point where the smaller diameter pipe becomes TOO small to pass the gas without creating a restriction. When this occures, backpressure increases and power is restricted. Above that RPM a larger diameter pipe will increase power by reducing backpressure.
There is MUCH more to this than meets the eye but surfice to say BACKPRESSURE does NOT increase power.
Make sense?
MadMax,
Now, it is true that TOO large of an exhaust pipe, be it a primary header runner, a secondary pipe, a merge or collector, an X or Y or H pipe, and in some cases after, WILL reduce low speed power. The error in logic is ASUMING that the smaller pipe has MORE backpressure. In FACT at low/mid engine speeds, the smaller diameter creates HIGHER gas speeds and LOWER pressure. This is true up to the point where the smaller diameter pipe becomes TOO small to pass the gas without creating a restriction. When this occures, backpressure increases and power is restricted. Above that RPM a larger diameter pipe will increase power by reducing backpressure.
There is MUCH more to this than meets the eye but surfice to say BACKPRESSURE does NOT increase power.
Make sense?
Sure it's more complicated, but I'm trying to get across that 3 inch duals aren't going to help anything. On a dyno, cars DO lose low end torque if you unbolt the exhaust for example, and run open headers. I'm NOT talking about horsepower, I already have plenty of that
That's why Subaru uses an exhaust valve that opens at like 3000 RPM. restricting to increase torque till it gets above that RPM.
12-17-01, 02:54 PM
#15
Lexus Champion
MadMax,
Sorry if you felt I was nitpicking
My goal was for people to understand that large diameter pipes and YES even open headers (depending on header and collecter design) will often present HIGHER pressure and SLOWER flow than smaller pipes. The distinction is important as if it was backpressure that boosted torque the installation of restrictions (poor mufflers, crimped piping, poor transistions, etc) would be beneficial.
As I said the reasons are complex. But, the addition of properly sized piping in well engineered configurations will maximize an engines breathing over the RPM range targeted. Poor mufflers and mass produced transitions are NOT torque enhancers.
Sorry if you felt I was nitpicking
My goal was for people to understand that large diameter pipes and YES even open headers (depending on header and collecter design) will often present HIGHER pressure and SLOWER flow than smaller pipes. The distinction is important as if it was backpressure that boosted torque the installation of restrictions (poor mufflers, crimped piping, poor transistions, etc) would be beneficial.
As I said the reasons are complex. But, the addition of properly sized piping in well engineered configurations will maximize an engines breathing over the RPM range targeted. Poor mufflers and mass produced transitions are NOT torque enhancers.