LXGXSAM1

See attachment, thanks.

joenew61

I am not sure I understand the metrics - what is the MPG difference column. Is that versus the non-hybrid equivalent i.e. RX 350??

For me, the MPG difference is 8 - 9, and the payback assuming 5% annual increase in gas price, and the $6,500 difference in price is 5-6 years. I will have it for 15.

MX5NES350

I tried to raise a similar topic over in Car Chat: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...en-points.html

From my experience in this RX forum in other topics that looked at similar opinions/data and from my above Car Chat topic just grab yourself a bag of popcorn. Any article/statistics/opinions that point out anything questioning the purchase of a hybrid will result in the source material being shredded.

Savings come slowly for hybrid, electric car owners
Nashville Business Journal by Nevin Batiwalla, Staff Reporter

Date: Thursday, April 5, 2012, 12:09pm CDT

If you're thinking about buying a fuel-efficient hybrid, electric or otherwise eco-friendly vehicle as a way to save money over time, do your homework — or be prepared to wait.
Buyers who choose Nissan's all-electric Leaf ($28,421) over its approximate gas-powered equivalent, Nissan's Versa ($18,640), will likely wait nearly 9 years until they break even, according to a new report by The New York Times that examines the cost of fuel efficiency.
For drivers of the Chevrolet Volt ($31,767), the wait is even longer— 26.6 years.
A few vehicles begin paying off relatively soon after leaving the dealership. Two hybrids— Toyota's Prius ($23,537) and Lincoln's MKZ ($33,887)— as well as Volkswagen's diesel-powered Jetta TDI ($25,242) all take less than two years before they start saving their owners money.
Check out this chart by the Times that breaks down the savings delay for many popular fuel-efficient models.
The high price tag of many fuel-efficient vehicles — including the Nissan Leaf, which will soon be made in Smyrna, Tenn. — is one reason consumers have yet to embrace them with open arms.



The longer NYT article is here: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/05/bu...wait.html?_r=1

billy44bo

Does it account for the resale difference or how much fun it is to drive or the 350? I think not

MX5NES350

Thanks for supporting my point. The study is how long it takes to break even not what's it worth on resale or a fun factor.

ejm3

Does it really help resale that much? Seems to me that some years down the road you're going to have a pretty big bill to replace the batteries. I haven't looked into it but I know that would be on my mind if I was looking to buy a 7+ year old hybrid.

dctex99

but supposedly the batteries will come down in price!! On the first Prius Toyota said the batteries would cost $7000 right now, but by the time they need replacing the replacements could likely be under $1,000 and a BETTER battery!!

RXSF

...where did they get the 10,700 price difference between the RX350 and RX450h. It is only about $5000

joenew61

Right - though the realistic price difference here in the northeast (unless you want to order one) is over 6k, because of the "mandatory" options on the 450h for the cars that are delivered to stock.

That being said, figures posted in a generic table, or articles that are written to support a conclusion are not useful for personal decision criteria. What IS useful is the calculations that each buyer makes based on his particular circumstances.

Before I even get to the other benefits of 450h over 350, I am 100% confident that from a purely economic standpoint, it was the right choice, and I have downside protection from higher fuel prices.

I actually enjoy the act of maximizing MPG - it provides entertainment value every time I drive it. And there are several other advantages, which I will not mention, since the thread has been limited to MPG comparisons.

TomT127

It's only a 3 mpg difference? That's not much.

Cruiter

That is so wrong and points out the lack of accuracy in the 'study' or whatever you choose to call it. It's like random numbers that make no sense in real life situations where purchase vs resale, real life mileage differences, car features std on the (h), not on the other and a jump up in model and trim are factors they didn't use. For the record the batteries and entire hybrid powertrain are warranted longer than many people keep the car. If you go to the 1st gen Hybrid forum you'll only find a small number of battery issues that could have been any other part of the car. Many drivers have over 150,000 miles and no issues. So that's not valid for anything other than skepticism.

I'll be a 2nd time around hybrid buyer when it's time to change again. The difference between averaging around 18 to 20mpg in the all gas and 30+ in the Hybrid (I actually am over nearly 2 years now) is priceless.

InRBigness

I agree with you Jim, i am getting almost twice the gas milage in the city and when all was said and done it was only about a 5K difference. I was told that to replace the Prius battery pack is around $3,000.

Here is an quote from article I found with a quick search that reaffirms what i was told.

And Toyota claims that not one has required a battery replacement due to malfunction or "wearing out." The only replacement batteries sold--at the retail price of $3000--have been for cars that were involved in accidents.

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffwor...r-wear-cga.htm

There are Taxi's here in town that have over a Million km's on them. Those guys dont drive stuff that long if it is costing them money.

Cruiter

I hadn't seen that article, good find. Also I meant to mention and forgot the CVT Transmission. Not only is it smooth and quite, with a fraction of the moving parts of a 5 or 6 spd, the ones already in use have a fantastic reliability rate when compared with conventional automatics. Prius was using them before our 1st Gen (h) and they've performed very well so far for Lexus. I have no doubt that for normal use, the life of the battery is expected to be the life of the car as the article said. In excess of 200,000 miles.

Our (h) models are considerably less expensive to maintain than the normal RX350. That was not factored into the rating either. Mostly tires, oil, and filters for the life of the car with nit pic stuff like bolt tightening, tire rotation, etc.

sightdev

how does "h" have less maintenance when wear-n-tear are based on miles/time? if factor in replacement battery at 10yrs/150kmiles [will vary], "h" will never recoup the cost differences. “h” have much more “parts” to break/repair so overall cost will be much higher than a RX350 over many years.

IMO, Prius(s) are only hybrid closest to mainstream but all other hybrids are sort of "niche" vehicle with its unique character. All of us here could have purchased Venza/Highland but we folk over $5k-$10k more for RX. Auto critics should not compare hybrid and what they think its closest non-hybrid as comparison. Accept all hybrid as its unique model. Same argument can be had with E63 AMG at $140k compare to E550 at $80k. between the two, performance is marginally different but there is $60k price differences.

LXGXSAM1

The cost of battery replacement for hybrids would affect resale value. I doubt people would keep their hybrids after it passed the warranty period for the hybrid parts. The resale value would be low at that point, for the fear of having a costly battery to replace.