MellonC00

Yes. Tranny oil color does change quickly after new fluid gets used. My whole point with the video was to point out a comment made by the producer of the video. I can't really control the screenshot from uTube. The color could be blue for all I care...

iolmaster

iTrader: (1)

I wasn't referring to your post. I was referring to post #20.

ukrkoz

I have been working on my cars since 1990. I have done countless ATF changes. ATF is ATF. In its principle, it is same across any makes. They do add some additives here and there, change viscosity some but, it is ATF.
That said, I witnessed ATF changed at various intervals. Including our old faithful RX300 and I KNOW what ATF may look like when it's burnt out - or not. I drained ATF after 30-40 000 miles, and it was still pink and slightly darker, then fresh one. Or, I drained it after 15 000 miles, and it will come out brown and stinking of burnt oil.
It actually didn't really much depend on ATF as it depended on how well transmission was working. That RX300 was probably the most stellar vehicle in that respect. Power train was so tight, so well made, that I could have luxury of 15 000 miles between oil changes.
Anyhow. On my PERSONAL books, if it is brown and stinks of burnt - it is no good ATF. I care less about science behind it, who said what, my common sense tells me it ain't good - it ain't good. Takes 20 minutes to buy that cheap insurance - drain and fill ATF. I have no problem with that. Y'all do as you please.

hovbuild

A week ago I asked a toyota tech about the ATF change on our cars. He said a drain and fill at 60,000 miles is what to do and then 50-60 thousand do it again. Yesterday had a local "japanese car" repair shop do a "drain and fill" and replace the transfer case fluid. He's been in business for 30 years and said exactly the same thing. Said that our transmissions are some of the best in the industry. Said my fluid at 60,000 was still in good condition, cost 106.00. Funny thing is he gave me a loaner car he has when I dropped my car off. It was a 2005 civic, I was laughing when I tried to get in and felt like I was in free fall. Couple miles down the road I was getting very impressed. The car drove and rode like a brand new car, cabin noise was crazy though and the drive line was smooth with no vibrations. Then I looked at the milage 325800!

lexus114

the problem with drain and fills on these sealed transmissions is you only get out around 2 quarts at a time. that doesn't really help a whole lot unless you do at least two-three.

salimshah

For public information ... the fluid exchange setup with machines also does a drain and fill with few differences
1. drain and fill happens a few ounces at a time.
2. the bottom drain, drains out the settled sludge if any, while the machine based does in stream.
3. machine based exchange can introduce contaminants and particles from previous process unless they take the system apart and ready it. [Closest example I can give is sharing needles]

The important thing to understand is that unless the transmission is taken apart, you can not fully empty/remove the old fluid. You just gradually increase the fresh fluid.

I am convinced that doing repeat drain and fill is lot better than having the machine do an exchange. YMVV.

Salim

Cocal

It certainly will do the job that a machine can do, but how many times do you have to change it to reach that point?
It's not really practical and with the cost of labour, it only makes sense if you perform the service yourself.
You are also right on the contamination factor, but IMO this is so minimal that it bears no weight.
In the end which method one choses don't really matter as long as one DOES the change, this is the MOST important factor.
Having said that I'm returning to my onions (as the french say)

F250

When oils are exposed to heat and oxygen, oxidation occurs (think color change). The more (longer, more frequently, etc.) an oil is subjected to heat and oxygen, the more oxidation will occur (common sense extrapolation as an experience-based reliance on real science).

When oils and their components oxidize (additives like defoamers, anti-oxidants, friction modifiers, extreme pressure lubricants, etc.), they begin to lose their ability to maintain proper fluid pH and viscosity characteristics.

When lubricants begin to lose their viscosity characteristics, they begin to lose their ability to protect friction surfaces from thermal and/or mechanical damage.

None of the above even begins to approach the impact of repeated exposure to shear forces and their impact on a lubricant's ability to reduce friction.

The single best monitor for determining a lubricant's life is "operating hours" as has long since been used by the OTR trucking industry and diesel equipment operators. An hour-meter is not a standard feature in our vehicles, but it is a simple device which can easily be added under the hood for periodic monitoring.

Don't ask me how many hours are equivalent to 10,000 miles because that varies based on how you drive. If, however, you use an average speed of 25 mph for a primarily city-driven vehicle, then 10,000 miles would be roughly equivalent to about... ABOUT... 400 operating hours. A primarily highway driven vehicle will probably average around 35 mph which would then equate to approximately 286 hours. You can easily see, therefore, how relying on the number of miles driven between maintenance activities is sort of nonsensical, and at best highly variable.

Just a few grains of thought from my own penny bag. Use or ignore as you see fit.

salimshah

There was a study done in first gen RX. Here we have different capacity and different drain volume (at least I think so) so we cant apply directly, but if interested one can search in there.
On contamination issue, its your vehicle and you are the best judge to weigh the risk factor.
The thread is full of opinions and based on that I can present arguments both ways. Only if I had facts to back one or the other or both

Salim

lexusrus

Yes, Honda's and Toyota s with proper maintenance will last a looooong time. Nissans, I'm not so sure. Euro brands hit and miss. Same goes for domestic brands.

hovbuild

Well I will take the advice of a "older" certified toyota mechanic and a guy that has done hundreds of our drain and fills. Just saying.

I need to add he charged me for 7+ quarts of ws. He does it three times. Isn't this what the dealers do on a drain and fill also?

lexusrus

I think if the dealership has a flush machine, then that is what they use. If they did not invest in a flush machine, then they only do a drain and fill X1 which will only get out about less than half of all the ATF. NO WAY ALL 7+ QUARTS.

Cocal

That's the problem, I'm not disparaging their experience, but it's based on "Older" transmissions that were a lot more robust than the new ones, furthermore they only had 3 gears, the new ones have from 5 to 10 gears so they have from 5 to 10 clutches and these clutches spew debris into the fluid as they work, it's also this debris that must be got rid of not only the old fluid. As I and others have said, many mechanics/dealerships do not invest in the purchase of these machines and so they only recommend a drop & fill, not as good as a full exchange, but still better than nothing. A drop & fill will replace approx 40% of the fluid.

salimshah

First gen transmission failure rate = ??
Was it related to transmission fluid? [Every indicator was it was related to planetary gear failure and smaller pump size, fluid was secondary order effect*]
*once the gear broke apart, the fluid carried it all over, once the pump is undersized the fluid could not lubricate properly

Second gen transmission failure rate =?? [is it increasing]
Was it related to transmission fluid?

Third gen transmission failure rate =?? [is it increasing, we may have to wait till more vehicles reach 200k]
Was it related to transmission fluid?

What is the best way to remove the worn material from bands? [In line flush or drain-fill]

Salim

Cocal

I know that the best way to remove the worn material is a full exchange, you can also do it by drop & fill, but you'd have to do quite a few to achieve the same result.
I don't know about Lexus, but my experience with this forever fluid is limited to MB, BMW and Audi all of these came out with this "for life" fluid before Lexus and it was one failure after another, maybe Lexus learned from that I don't know so I prefer caution and do my exchanges by machine. It may well be that w/o any exchanges the transmission will last over 100K, but I'm one of those idiots who wants to have best function & performance regardless of how long I keep the vehicle.