Roll Race: Stock RC-F vs Stock BMW M4
06-20-17, 06:27 AM
#61
Lexus Test Driver
Doug, I'm not knocking down turbo charging. You're comparing F1 to a $70,000 car, the technology that works in F1 does not always work in the same manner as it does in passenger motor vehicles. They're two seperate types of machines. The truth is, in it's stock form without additional cooling upgrades, the M4 will suffer from heat well before the RC F will in a long track day.
It is far easier to squeeze reliable hp out of a $70,000 car than a competive engine at the F1 level with all of the restrictions placed on F1 engines.
The publications running comparaison tests on the track with F8Xs are too numerous to count and I have yet to hear about an F8X having heat or mechanical issues on the track. The same cannot be said for the Vette, Guilia and etc.
Fact is, the F80 ZCP is amazing car for its price and unbelievably well rounded.
06-20-17, 06:54 AM
#62
Nah, the F8Xs are fine and the engines can handle more power. I have owned both and put my F80 through the paces at Barber . The car held up great, handled great and is a much better car than the RCF from top to bottom and in every category.
It is far easier to squeeze reliable hp out of a $70,000 car than a competive engine at the F1 level with all of the restrictions placed on F1 engines.
The publications running comparaison tests on the track with F8Xs are too numerous to count and I have yet to hear about an F8X having heat or mechanical issues on the track. The same cannot be said for the Vette, Guilia and etc.
Fact is, the F80 ZCP is amazing car for its price and unbelievably well rounded.
It is far easier to squeeze reliable hp out of a $70,000 car than a competive engine at the F1 level with all of the restrictions placed on F1 engines.
The publications running comparaison tests on the track with F8Xs are too numerous to count and I have yet to hear about an F8X having heat or mechanical issues on the track. The same cannot be said for the Vette, Guilia and etc.
Fact is, the F80 ZCP is amazing car for its price and unbelievably well rounded.
I didn't say you can't get power out of the M4. The stock M4 can not compare to a $2 million dollar turbo charged engine. The cooling and methods used are different. They had to switch to an air to liquid intercooler on this M3/M4 because every other BMW was having issues. Again not so much on the 15 minute racing, but rather "endurance". This new M3/M4 is certainly better, but it is limited in endurance racing in stock form.
The BMW engine has not so great efficiency, this is what most people will never know. I've calculated the combustion dynamic on the 5.0L V-8 and the 3.0L I-6 and I can tell you that 3.0L is not nearly as efficient as the 5.0L. Lexus and Yamaha really designed an engine that can withstand prolonged redline with minimal wear. The 3.0L I-6 was designed for the "Ultimate Driving Machine" and not meant to be driven as the "Ultimate Reliable Machine". Granted, you will always end up with a faster car going the BMW route and I think most people here knew that buying an RC F was always going to be an inferior platform when comparing track stuff and mod availibility.
06-20-17, 07:38 AM
#64
Lexus Test Driver
That is true. One of the reasons why Nissan pulled out of the 24 hours of endurance racing at Nurburgring after not doing well, was because they could not keep the car from overheating as it kept going into limp mode.
Both have their own advantages. Turbo for maximum power while N/A for maximum linear response and consistency. In endurance racing especially at Nurburgring, as all of the results show, N/A is king. End of story. Mercedes, Porsche, Audi etc. all choose to use N/A in Endurance racing. Many of these are turbo cars in road-going versions, but they switch to N/A high-revving engines for racing versions. The example is, the AMG GTR for the road-going version and the AMG GT3 with the 6.2 Liter N/A V8 engine for the endurance racing.
Even Porsche's own Walter Rohrl himself in an interview said he prefers N/A high-revving engines like the GT3 RS when he does racing while he owns a Porsche Turbo S for the snow/mountains in Germany as well as for the Autobahns.
Both have their own advantages. Turbo for maximum power while N/A for maximum linear response and consistency. In endurance racing especially at Nurburgring, as all of the results show, N/A is king. End of story. Mercedes, Porsche, Audi etc. all choose to use N/A in Endurance racing. Many of these are turbo cars in road-going versions, but they switch to N/A high-revving engines for racing versions. The example is, the AMG GTR for the road-going version and the AMG GT3 with the 6.2 Liter N/A V8 engine for the endurance racing.
Even Porsche's own Walter Rohrl himself in an interview said he prefers N/A high-revving engines like the GT3 RS when he does racing while he owns a Porsche Turbo S for the snow/mountains in Germany as well as for the Autobahns.
It's not about knocking the F8X. Here are the facts, in Florida with the guys racing 8 hour endurance races, I routinely have BMW's and GT-R's coming to me and they need help staying cool. They're not keeping all that power after a few hours. It's not about the M4 breaking into a million pieces, rather they're not holding the same power. This is due to a few factors but primarily oil sump capacity and the fact they are turbocharged.
I didn't say you can't get power out of the M4. The stock M4 can not compare to a $2 million dollar turbo charged engine. The cooling and methods used are different. They had to switch to an air to liquid intercooler on this M3/M4 because every other BMW was having issues. Again not so much on the 15 minute racing, but rather "endurance". This new M3/M4 is certainly better, but it is limited in endurance racing in stock form.
The BMW engine has not so great efficiency, this is what most people will never know. I've calculated the combustion dynamic on the 5.0L V-8 and the 3.0L I-6 and I can tell you that 3.0L is not nearly as efficient as the 5.0L. Lexus and Yamaha really designed an engine that can withstand prolonged redline with minimal wear. The 3.0L I-6 was designed for the "Ultimate Driving Machine" and not meant to be driven as the "Ultimate Reliable Machine". Granted, you will always end up with a faster car going the BMW route and I think most people here knew that buying an RC F was always going to be an inferior platform when comparing track stuff and mod availibility.
I didn't say you can't get power out of the M4. The stock M4 can not compare to a $2 million dollar turbo charged engine. The cooling and methods used are different. They had to switch to an air to liquid intercooler on this M3/M4 because every other BMW was having issues. Again not so much on the 15 minute racing, but rather "endurance". This new M3/M4 is certainly better, but it is limited in endurance racing in stock form.
The BMW engine has not so great efficiency, this is what most people will never know. I've calculated the combustion dynamic on the 5.0L V-8 and the 3.0L I-6 and I can tell you that 3.0L is not nearly as efficient as the 5.0L. Lexus and Yamaha really designed an engine that can withstand prolonged redline with minimal wear. The 3.0L I-6 was designed for the "Ultimate Driving Machine" and not meant to be driven as the "Ultimate Reliable Machine". Granted, you will always end up with a faster car going the BMW route and I think most people here knew that buying an RC F was always going to be an inferior platform when comparing track stuff and mod availibility.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 06-20-17 at 08:51 AM.
06-20-17, 11:22 AM
#69
Lexus Test Driver
It's not about knocking the F8X. Here are the facts, in Florida with the guys racing 8 hour endurance races, I routinely have BMW's and GT-R's coming to me and they need help staying cool. They're not keeping all that power after a few hours. It's not about the M4 breaking into a million pieces, rather they're not holding the same power. This is due to a few factors but primarily oil sump capacity and the fact they are turbocharged.
I didn't say you can't get power out of the M4. The stock M4 can not compare to a $2 million dollar turbo charged engine. The cooling and methods used are different. They had to switch to an air to liquid intercooler on this M3/M4 because every other BMW was having issues. Again not so much on the 15 minute racing, but rather "endurance". This new M3/M4 is certainly better, but it is limited in endurance racing in stock form.
The BMW engine has not so great efficiency, this is what most people will never know. I've calculated the combustion dynamic on the 5.0L V-8 and the 3.0L I-6 and I can tell you that 3.0L is not nearly as efficient as the 5.0L. Lexus and Yamaha really designed an engine that can withstand prolonged redline with minimal wear. The 3.0L I-6 was designed for the "Ultimate Driving Machine" and not meant to be driven as the "Ultimate Reliable Machine". Granted, you will always end up with a faster car going the BMW route and I think most people here knew that buying an RC F was always going to be an inferior platform when comparing track stuff and mod availibility.
I didn't say you can't get power out of the M4. The stock M4 can not compare to a $2 million dollar turbo charged engine. The cooling and methods used are different. They had to switch to an air to liquid intercooler on this M3/M4 because every other BMW was having issues. Again not so much on the 15 minute racing, but rather "endurance". This new M3/M4 is certainly better, but it is limited in endurance racing in stock form.
The BMW engine has not so great efficiency, this is what most people will never know. I've calculated the combustion dynamic on the 5.0L V-8 and the 3.0L I-6 and I can tell you that 3.0L is not nearly as efficient as the 5.0L. Lexus and Yamaha really designed an engine that can withstand prolonged redline with minimal wear. The 3.0L I-6 was designed for the "Ultimate Driving Machine" and not meant to be driven as the "Ultimate Reliable Machine". Granted, you will always end up with a faster car going the BMW route and I think most people here knew that buying an RC F was always going to be an inferior platform when comparing track stuff and mod availibility.
In PBOC and Porsche Club, endurance was generally 1 1/2 hours, but these were hardly steeet cars and PBOC, whom I used to instruct for, was a BMW racing club. SCCA would have some 3 hour endurance stuff, but again . . . you are not going to go out there and find GTRs and BMW street cars. Last time I ran Daytonna . . . more years that I like to admit . . . I didn't see any street cars like GTRs and BMWs out there either.
I honestly don't buy into Lexus focusing on running an engine at red line for extended periods of time because their cars have historically been for grand mas and paw paws. German lines such as Porsche GT, Mercedes AMG and BMW M are light years ahead of Lexus when it comes to performance engines and focusing on running an engine at or near its limits for extended periods of time.
New BMWs are certainly relable enough and not far behind Lexus or Toyota these days in terms of reliability. Kind of gotten to the point where it does not make sense to shift away from BMW based on reliability if purchasing new.
Alas, I am a Porsche guy and I drove my wife's old, used 997.2 this morning. That 6 year old car with a measly 350 hp is better then the M3 and the RCF and prices are going up on the .2s now . . . Back to a turbo as a DD as 6 year old will be out of that big **** car seat.
Last edited by DougHII; 06-20-17 at 11:25 AM.
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Rodrox11 (07-02-17)
06-20-17, 11:38 AM
#70
Intermediate
lol! I am pretty shy, I let my RCF give the first impressions and the talking !
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Lexura1414 (06-20-17)
06-20-17, 11:51 AM
#71
Lol, yeah there are so many guys running their steet cars in 8 hour endurance races. You got me really curious. What you talkin bout? What 8 hour endurance races in Florida where guys are running BMW and GTRs?
In PBOC and Porsche Club, endurance was generally 1 1/2 hours, but these were hardly steeet cars and PBOC, whom I used to instruct for, was a BMW racing club. SCCA would
have some 3 hour endurance stuff, but again . . . you are
not going to go out there and find GTRs and BMW street
cars. Last time I ran Daytonna . . . more years that I like to admit . . . I didn't see any street cars like GTRs and BMWs out there either.
I honestly don't buy into Lexus focusing on running an engine at red line for extended periods of time because their cars have historically been for grand mas and paw paws. German lines such as Porsche GT, Mercedes AMG and BMW M are light years ahead of Lexus when it comes to performance engines and focusing on running an engine at or near its limits for extended periods of time.
New BMWs are certainly relable enough and not far behind Lexus or Toyota these days in terms of reliability. Kind of gotten to the point where it does not make sense to shift away from BMW based on reliability if purchasing new.
Alas, I am a Porsche guy and I drove my wife's old, used 997.2 this morning. That 6 year old car with a measly 350 hp is better then the M3 and the RCF and prices are going up on the .2s now . . . Back to a turbo as a DD as 6 year old will be out of that big **** car seat.
In PBOC and Porsche Club, endurance was generally 1 1/2 hours, but these were hardly steeet cars and PBOC, whom I used to instruct for, was a BMW racing club. SCCA would
have some 3 hour endurance stuff, but again . . . you are
not going to go out there and find GTRs and BMW street
cars. Last time I ran Daytonna . . . more years that I like to admit . . . I didn't see any street cars like GTRs and BMWs out there either.
I honestly don't buy into Lexus focusing on running an engine at red line for extended periods of time because their cars have historically been for grand mas and paw paws. German lines such as Porsche GT, Mercedes AMG and BMW M are light years ahead of Lexus when it comes to performance engines and focusing on running an engine at or near its limits for extended periods of time.
New BMWs are certainly relable enough and not far behind Lexus or Toyota these days in terms of reliability. Kind of gotten to the point where it does not make sense to shift away from BMW based on reliability if purchasing new.
Alas, I am a Porsche guy and I drove my wife's old, used 997.2 this morning. That 6 year old car with a measly 350 hp is better then the M3 and the RCF and prices are going up on the .2s now . . . Back to a turbo as a DD as 6 year old will be out of that big **** car seat.
you don't have to buy into anything, I've done the research and seen the data. Put an M4 and an RC F on a bench test at redline until they blow and the M4 will pop well before an RC F. Remember Yamaha had a HUGE component in engineering this engine, they spend most of their time at redline by your logic. It's really little to do with guessing.
Last edited by danielTRLK; 06-20-17 at 11:59 AM.
06-20-17, 11:57 AM
#72
Lexus Champion
iTrader: (20)
New BMWs are certainly relable enough and not far behind Lexus or Toyota these days in terms of reliability. Kind of gotten to the point where it does not make sense to shift away from BMW based on reliability if purchasing new.
Alas, I am a Porsche guy and I drove my wife's old, used 997.2 this morning. That 6 year old car with a measly 350 hp is better then the M3 and the RCF and prices are going up on the .2s now . . . Back to a turbo as a DD as 6 year old will be out of that big **** car seat.
Alas, I am a Porsche guy and I drove my wife's old, used 997.2 this morning. That 6 year old car with a measly 350 hp is better then the M3 and the RCF and prices are going up on the .2s now . . . Back to a turbo as a DD as 6 year old will be out of that big **** car seat.
not far behind? maybe if we are talking about new cars with low miles comparison. mid range and higher miles, euro cars are crap and I've owned and love euro cars. I'm sure if i bought a new m4 and treated it like how i treated the rcf now, im sure it would be damn reliable. letting it sit in the garage and putting 20 miles on it a week .
06-20-17, 02:15 PM
#73
06-20-17, 02:21 PM
#74
The BMW is clearly the faster car...period. I do question the RCFs driving skills. I do question if the RCF driver was in his powerband, which is above 5k rpm. The engine sounds pretty quiet to be in sport/sport + and hovering around 5500 rpm, which is exactly where I would've been for this race. Sounds like he was too high a gear
06-20-17, 02:46 PM
#75
Pole Position
Ever wonder why most bmw owners get rid of those cars before or right when the warranty runs out... Regardless of how much faster they are I would never own one again.. Can't wait to see a sc rc-f rape a modded m3 because its coming...
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ISFPOWER (06-20-17)