Real or Synthetic Oil....
02-19-18, 08:44 PM
#286
Driver School Candidate
Hello everyone, new owner here. Just read through the majority of the thread. It looks like RLI, Amsoil and M1 EP are recommended, in that order.
Quick question: Any reason the M1 EP is recommended over the M1 0w40? The 0w40 is ACEA A3/B3 vs A1/B1 of the M1 EP.
I'm aware 5w30 is recommended by Lexus, but I was looking for some additional insight. I've had long term success running this in numerous other cars.
Thanks!
Quick question: Any reason the M1 EP is recommended over the M1 0w40? The 0w40 is ACEA A3/B3 vs A1/B1 of the M1 EP.
I'm aware 5w30 is recommended by Lexus, but I was looking for some additional insight. I've had long term success running this in numerous other cars.
Thanks!
Last edited by BrennanH; 02-19-18 at 08:49 PM.
02-19-18, 11:40 PM
#287
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
There is no good reason to run 40 weight oil in an engine designed for 30 weight. It will only run hotter and make less power.
I disagree with M1 EP as a preference over standard M1.
I would suggest reading 540 RAT's blog for more information about measured oil performance.
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/201...-test-ranking/
I disagree with M1 EP as a preference over standard M1.
I would suggest reading 540 RAT's blog for more information about measured oil performance.
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/201...-test-ranking/
02-20-18, 04:08 AM
#288
There is no good reason to run 40 weight oil in an engine designed for 30 weight. It will only run hotter and make less power.
I disagree with M1 EP as a preference over standard M1.
I would suggest reading 540 RAT's blog for more information about measured oil performance.
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/201...-test-ranking/
I disagree with M1 EP as a preference over standard M1.
I would suggest reading 540 RAT's blog for more information about measured oil performance.
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/201...-test-ranking/
I read damn near that whole thing. Very detailed info and analysis. Direct contradiction to many of the other oil blogs and Danial’s recomendation of M-ep, as you said.
So...after all that data combined with your knowledge of engines are you back to 5000 oci’s? I know you were going much longer.
It also appears that of the motor oils that can be purchased at the big stores that are 5w-30 that mobile 1 supersyn and Quaker state Ultimate Durabilty are both highly recommend. Though ranked higher on the list the M1 didn’t do as well as the QS at high temps. It appears that’s not that important. Maybe if you track a lot it is?
I think ill I’ll be sticking to 5k and using one of these two oils and the Yzz-a4. Are you still a fan of that filter?
Im guessing you agree with much of his study. He cleary knows his stuff. What are your thoughts on his testing and conclusions vs some others?
Last edited by Greatest; 02-20-18 at 05:48 PM.
02-20-18, 12:39 PM
#289
Driver School Candidate
There is no good reason to run 40 weight oil in an engine designed for 30 weight. It will only run hotter and make less power.
I disagree with M1 EP as a preference over standard M1.
I would suggest reading 540 RAT's blog for more information about measured oil performance.
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/201...-test-ranking/
I disagree with M1 EP as a preference over standard M1.
I would suggest reading 540 RAT's blog for more information about measured oil performance.
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/201...-test-ranking/
02-22-18, 09:48 PM
#290
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
M1 0w-40 is clearly a strong performer, but sadly it's not the right oil for our engines. It would be great if it were. It would also be great if Mobil would formulate their 5w-30 to perform as well as their 0w-40, but alas, that is also not to be.
I take all of these inputs with a grain of salt. I still disagree with 540 RAT's OCI recommendation because he gives zero science for why, and even says TBN is at 50% on one of the oils, and all I can think is, would you throw out a set of tires at 50% wear? Sure, let's not be foolish and run it down to zero, but there's a whole lot more to your oil change interval than color and TBN at 50% and he didn't really make a good case for it. Daniel has made a strong case for being concerned about fuel dilution in this thread, and I believe it bears significant weight in considering how long you are willing to run on a oil change.
With all this input, I still have my empirical experience. My Supra has over 150k miles on the original factory engine build. I have run Red Line 10w-30 in it since 1997, and at my last dyno day about 2000 miles ago, it put 330 hp to the wheels on a Dyno Dynamics unit running 93 octane pump gas at about 1800 feet altitude here in Georgia. That's very comparable to what it made at Silver State Motorsports at SILV2000. This is with 10k mile oil changes. So, if fuel dilution kills power long term, I have not observed it in my car.
I can also say the results of used oil testing from two different labs were completely different and I really didn't expect the wear metals to be greatly different, but they were. So, I wonder if sticking with one lab that is consistent is better than seeking the absolute truth, because in the long run you're looking for trends. You're not going to know much about an engine (unless it's on its very last legs) from a single sample result. It's really how it wears over time, and as an example, if I see 24 ppm iron as a result consistently using the same driving patterns and the same oil, it isn't nearly as important whether it's +/- 10 ppm of the absolute value than it is to see a sudden increase from a known value. Or to see copper when none has been previously observed, or a surge in any other metals used in rod and main bearings.
I have to get some RLI oil and send it to 540 RAT for testing. I am very curious if it holds up under load and if it maintains at higher temperatures. Based on RAT's testing, we should all be running Amsoil Signature Series, but again without corroborating evidence it manages fuel dilution (which RAT does not test), it might be a great oil on fill, but degrade over time. I pretty much doubt it, but it's possible and I have no reason to say it will or it won't because I haven't tested it for ability to manage fuel dilution. All that said, if RLI's oil performs mid-pack for load, but absolutely knocks the ball out of the park for FD, I wouldn't run it. I'd rather run Amsoil, M1, or Pennzoil and reduce my OCI because they would all be more capable of handling an unexpected load. JMHO.
I take all of these inputs with a grain of salt. I still disagree with 540 RAT's OCI recommendation because he gives zero science for why, and even says TBN is at 50% on one of the oils, and all I can think is, would you throw out a set of tires at 50% wear? Sure, let's not be foolish and run it down to zero, but there's a whole lot more to your oil change interval than color and TBN at 50% and he didn't really make a good case for it. Daniel has made a strong case for being concerned about fuel dilution in this thread, and I believe it bears significant weight in considering how long you are willing to run on a oil change.
With all this input, I still have my empirical experience. My Supra has over 150k miles on the original factory engine build. I have run Red Line 10w-30 in it since 1997, and at my last dyno day about 2000 miles ago, it put 330 hp to the wheels on a Dyno Dynamics unit running 93 octane pump gas at about 1800 feet altitude here in Georgia. That's very comparable to what it made at Silver State Motorsports at SILV2000. This is with 10k mile oil changes. So, if fuel dilution kills power long term, I have not observed it in my car.
I can also say the results of used oil testing from two different labs were completely different and I really didn't expect the wear metals to be greatly different, but they were. So, I wonder if sticking with one lab that is consistent is better than seeking the absolute truth, because in the long run you're looking for trends. You're not going to know much about an engine (unless it's on its very last legs) from a single sample result. It's really how it wears over time, and as an example, if I see 24 ppm iron as a result consistently using the same driving patterns and the same oil, it isn't nearly as important whether it's +/- 10 ppm of the absolute value than it is to see a sudden increase from a known value. Or to see copper when none has been previously observed, or a surge in any other metals used in rod and main bearings.
I have to get some RLI oil and send it to 540 RAT for testing. I am very curious if it holds up under load and if it maintains at higher temperatures. Based on RAT's testing, we should all be running Amsoil Signature Series, but again without corroborating evidence it manages fuel dilution (which RAT does not test), it might be a great oil on fill, but degrade over time. I pretty much doubt it, but it's possible and I have no reason to say it will or it won't because I haven't tested it for ability to manage fuel dilution. All that said, if RLI's oil performs mid-pack for load, but absolutely knocks the ball out of the park for FD, I wouldn't run it. I'd rather run Amsoil, M1, or Pennzoil and reduce my OCI because they would all be more capable of handling an unexpected load. JMHO.
Last edited by lobuxracer; 02-22-18 at 09:52 PM.
05-03-18, 01:37 AM
#291
Hi......
RAT's testing bares little significance if any in an oil's performance in an engine. Theoretical tests are great for hypothesizes and just that. Real world testing proves otherwise, although Signature Series is the one thing I'd agree on. There are Four Ball EP Oil test's you can run but they're just not practical and never correlated to real world performance. Too many factors RAT doesn't test for, like FD in the oil, etc. Little meaning if it works in the lab but not real life.
Lance should note, he maintains his cars unlike other individuals. We've previously discussed how fuel dilution occurs, etc. He is very good at avoiding it, so if you're not meticulous like Lance and your driving style does not correlate to his, you likely won't have his luck.
TBN isn't everything, you can have a high TBN and high TCN or other values, which would make you want to throw out. Don't know what his OCI recommendation was, read that paper a long time ago.
The M1EP in my engine consistently tested better. It has a better additive package than the regular M1.
Fuel Dilution in these engines are really the only thing that wears them. That million mile tundra was no surprise. These engines are also overbuilt, one thing to consider if you just daily drive, I suppose. Granted with supercharges, tracking, etc, that is where the FD matters as the wear becomes exponential.
One thing most people might not know is a good oil and fuel will blend and become like a solvent on the intake and exhaust valves, which affects deposits and in turn engine performance long term. Oil quality is very important to that issue and others like LSPI.
Sorry to those who have messaged me with no reply. I was rear ended for the second time and there is no more RC F, plus I was on here too much. LOL and I used to say you can test the oil all you want, and sometimes a bus just comes along and rear ends you.
On a side note, I got an electric vehicle and it's just a different world. Free electricity at the library, Best Buy and some more places. Lots of neat benefits too. Oh and no more oil to fret about, lol. I used to say gas based vehicles will be gone in 10 years, but I'm seriously wondering if it won't happen sooner. Premium by my house is $4.15/gallon. E85 is $1.88 and electricity is 0.11KWH and it seems like they're only going to keep rising. The car is much faster too, like dangerously fast.
Lance, do you know more about the fuel prices and if they'll rise as the rumors continue?
I also, purchased a GX460 but I converted that to E85, so I'm not really stressing out at the pump like a lot of vehicles I see. Plus the engine stays clean and little wear.
RAT's testing bares little significance if any in an oil's performance in an engine. Theoretical tests are great for hypothesizes and just that. Real world testing proves otherwise, although Signature Series is the one thing I'd agree on. There are Four Ball EP Oil test's you can run but they're just not practical and never correlated to real world performance. Too many factors RAT doesn't test for, like FD in the oil, etc. Little meaning if it works in the lab but not real life.
Lance should note, he maintains his cars unlike other individuals. We've previously discussed how fuel dilution occurs, etc. He is very good at avoiding it, so if you're not meticulous like Lance and your driving style does not correlate to his, you likely won't have his luck.
TBN isn't everything, you can have a high TBN and high TCN or other values, which would make you want to throw out. Don't know what his OCI recommendation was, read that paper a long time ago.
The M1EP in my engine consistently tested better. It has a better additive package than the regular M1.
Fuel Dilution in these engines are really the only thing that wears them. That million mile tundra was no surprise. These engines are also overbuilt, one thing to consider if you just daily drive, I suppose. Granted with supercharges, tracking, etc, that is where the FD matters as the wear becomes exponential.
One thing most people might not know is a good oil and fuel will blend and become like a solvent on the intake and exhaust valves, which affects deposits and in turn engine performance long term. Oil quality is very important to that issue and others like LSPI.
Sorry to those who have messaged me with no reply. I was rear ended for the second time and there is no more RC F, plus I was on here too much. LOL and I used to say you can test the oil all you want, and sometimes a bus just comes along and rear ends you.
On a side note, I got an electric vehicle and it's just a different world. Free electricity at the library, Best Buy and some more places. Lots of neat benefits too. Oh and no more oil to fret about, lol. I used to say gas based vehicles will be gone in 10 years, but I'm seriously wondering if it won't happen sooner. Premium by my house is $4.15/gallon. E85 is $1.88 and electricity is 0.11KWH and it seems like they're only going to keep rising. The car is much faster too, like dangerously fast.
Lance, do you know more about the fuel prices and if they'll rise as the rumors continue?
I also, purchased a GX460 but I converted that to E85, so I'm not really stressing out at the pump like a lot of vehicles I see. Plus the engine stays clean and little wear.
05-03-18, 08:10 AM
#292
I think gas based vehicles are here to stay unless they invent something comparable. Electric vehicles are neat but the lack of range is a real downside. They may work for small commutes or around town, but the distances I drive make them a non starter for me. Plus where you drive. I like to drive into the remote parts of the state to hike and camp and no charging out there. California gives a 2500 rebate to help move electric vehicles off the lots. Plus you get a tax credit, IIRC. Lots of Teslas were I live, sort of a rich person green symbol car. The same people also own a giant SUV or Truck.
05-03-18, 09:21 PM
#293
Hi......
RAT's testing bares little significance if any in an oil's performance in an engine. Theoretical tests are great for hypothesizes and just that. Real world testing proves otherwise, although Signature Series is the one thing I'd agree on. There are Four Ball EP Oil test's you can run but they're just not practical and never correlated to real world performance. Too many factors RAT doesn't test for, like FD in the oil, etc. Little meaning if it works in the lab but not real life.
Lance should note, he maintains his cars unlike other individuals. We've previously discussed how fuel dilution occurs, etc. He is very good at avoiding it, so if you're not meticulous like Lance and your driving style does not correlate to his, you likely won't have his luck.
TBN isn't everything, you can have a high TBN and high TCN or other values, which would make you want to throw out. Don't know what his OCI recommendation was, read that paper a long time ago.
The M1EP in my engine consistently tested better. It has a better additive package than the regular M1.
Fuel Dilution in these engines are really the only thing that wears them. That million mile tundra was no surprise. These engines are also overbuilt, one thing to consider if you just daily drive, I suppose. Granted with supercharges, tracking, etc, that is where the FD matters as the wear becomes exponential.
One thing most people might not know is a good oil and fuel will blend and become like a solvent on the intake and exhaust valves, which affects deposits and in turn engine performance long term. Oil quality is very important to that issue and others like LSPI.
Sorry to those who have messaged me with no reply. I was rear ended for the second time and there is no more RC F, plus I was on here too much. LOL and I used to say you can test the oil all you want, and sometimes a bus just comes along and rear ends you.
On a side note, I got an electric vehicle and it's just a different world. Free electricity at the library, Best Buy and some more places. Lots of neat benefits too. Oh and no more oil to fret about, lol. I used to say gas based vehicles will be gone in 10 years, but I'm seriously wondering if it won't happen sooner. Premium by my house is $4.15/gallon. E85 is $1.88 and electricity is 0.11KWH and it seems like they're only going to keep rising. The car is much faster too, like dangerously fast.
Lance, do you know more about the fuel prices and if they'll rise as the rumors continue?
I also, purchased a GX460 but I converted that to E85, so I'm not really stressing out at the pump like a lot of vehicles I see. Plus the engine stays clean and little wear.
RAT's testing bares little significance if any in an oil's performance in an engine. Theoretical tests are great for hypothesizes and just that. Real world testing proves otherwise, although Signature Series is the one thing I'd agree on. There are Four Ball EP Oil test's you can run but they're just not practical and never correlated to real world performance. Too many factors RAT doesn't test for, like FD in the oil, etc. Little meaning if it works in the lab but not real life.
Lance should note, he maintains his cars unlike other individuals. We've previously discussed how fuel dilution occurs, etc. He is very good at avoiding it, so if you're not meticulous like Lance and your driving style does not correlate to his, you likely won't have his luck.
TBN isn't everything, you can have a high TBN and high TCN or other values, which would make you want to throw out. Don't know what his OCI recommendation was, read that paper a long time ago.
The M1EP in my engine consistently tested better. It has a better additive package than the regular M1.
Fuel Dilution in these engines are really the only thing that wears them. That million mile tundra was no surprise. These engines are also overbuilt, one thing to consider if you just daily drive, I suppose. Granted with supercharges, tracking, etc, that is where the FD matters as the wear becomes exponential.
One thing most people might not know is a good oil and fuel will blend and become like a solvent on the intake and exhaust valves, which affects deposits and in turn engine performance long term. Oil quality is very important to that issue and others like LSPI.
Sorry to those who have messaged me with no reply. I was rear ended for the second time and there is no more RC F, plus I was on here too much. LOL and I used to say you can test the oil all you want, and sometimes a bus just comes along and rear ends you.
On a side note, I got an electric vehicle and it's just a different world. Free electricity at the library, Best Buy and some more places. Lots of neat benefits too. Oh and no more oil to fret about, lol. I used to say gas based vehicles will be gone in 10 years, but I'm seriously wondering if it won't happen sooner. Premium by my house is $4.15/gallon. E85 is $1.88 and electricity is 0.11KWH and it seems like they're only going to keep rising. The car is much faster too, like dangerously fast.
Lance, do you know more about the fuel prices and if they'll rise as the rumors continue?
I also, purchased a GX460 but I converted that to E85, so I'm not really stressing out at the pump like a lot of vehicles I see. Plus the engine stays clean and little wear.
05-29-18, 09:09 PM
#295
Lexus Test Driver
05-30-18, 06:45 AM
#296
05-31-18, 08:57 PM
#297
Lexus Test Driver
Just type 5w30 in the search box
The following users liked this post:
shadow1118 (05-31-18)
06-06-18, 07:53 PM
#298
Lexus Test Driver
Got my oil test back today. Little more info in my build thread.
Amsoil 5W30
4300 miles
5-6 single track days
07-14-18, 08:02 PM
#299
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
Results are in for RLI's 5w-30. It performed quite well, it is number 4 behind the Amsoil Signature Series in load testing, and even at 275F, it only lost 0.7% of its load capacity. Daniel was right about it being really good oil. Now it just needs to produce used oil results after being in service.
Daniel is right about RAT's testing in one sense, but ultimately, oil performance in service starts with load capacity. If it isn't there from the start, it will only get worse over time.
I am now a convert. I'll be running RLI in all my engines with the very next oil change, and I'll be reporting back my lab results to show just how well it manages fuel dilution which I believe to be the biggest problem issue with our engines. Also - this is not the same oil Daniel linked (he specified the low ash), this is the oil RLI recommends for passenger cars:
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/
Daniel is right about RAT's testing in one sense, but ultimately, oil performance in service starts with load capacity. If it isn't there from the start, it will only get worse over time.
I am now a convert. I'll be running RLI in all my engines with the very next oil change, and I'll be reporting back my lab results to show just how well it manages fuel dilution which I believe to be the biggest problem issue with our engines. Also - this is not the same oil Daniel linked (he specified the low ash), this is the oil RLI recommends for passenger cars:
Originally Posted by Renewable Lubricants website
Bio-SynXtra™ Super High Performance Motor Oil SAE 5W30 is a patented biobased motor oil. It is designed with additional enhancement chemistry to provide optimum performance in newer high output turbocharged and supercharged gasoline engines in passenger cars, vans, sport utility vehicles, and light duty trucks requiring ILSAC GF-5, API SN and SM (Lubricity Enhanced Energy Conserving Formula Meeting Newest Catalytic Converter Requirements).
Originally Posted by RAT 540's Blog
4. 5W30 Renewable Lubricants, Bio-SynXtra, Super High Performance motor oil = 130,436 psi
This patented biobased motor oil uses agricultural vegetable oil base stock, and is biodegradable. It claims to have been formulated with the latest additive package components added to that base stock. It has no Motor Oil Industry certifications, but claims the formula passed the tests required for API SN. It claims superior wear protection and high temperature stability, both of which proved to be true in my Engineering tests. It also claims to have a very high Viscosity Index value, which helps against fuel dilution concerns. The higher the Viscosity Index value, the less the oil’s viscosity is reduced as it heats up.
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD
This oil was tested Summer 2018.The psi value of this oil, which came from testing it at the normal operating test temperature of 230*F, put it in the FANTASTIC Wear Protection Category.I also went on to test this oil at the much higher temperature of 275*F. At that elevated temperature, any hotter and thinner oil is expected to experience a drop in Wear Protection Capability. This oil had only an extremely small 0.7% drop in capability. Even at that elevated temperature, it produced 129,486 psi, which still kept this much hotter oil in the FANTASTIC Wear Protection Category. I also tested this oil for its onset of thermal breakdown point, which was 275*F.This was the first biobased motor oil I ever tested. And its performance was EXTREMELY IMPRESSIVE. These results probably surprise a lot of people, since this oil wasn’t even made from petroleum base stock. So it appears, there could be a very bright future for biobased motor oil, if they are formulated well.And the test data produced by this biobased oil, further backs up what I have said about a motor oil’s “base stock” NOT being all that critical, it is the “additive package” that IS critical.
This patented biobased motor oil uses agricultural vegetable oil base stock, and is biodegradable. It claims to have been formulated with the latest additive package components added to that base stock. It has no Motor Oil Industry certifications, but claims the formula passed the tests required for API SN. It claims superior wear protection and high temperature stability, both of which proved to be true in my Engineering tests. It also claims to have a very high Viscosity Index value, which helps against fuel dilution concerns. The higher the Viscosity Index value, the less the oil’s viscosity is reduced as it heats up.
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD
This oil was tested Summer 2018.The psi value of this oil, which came from testing it at the normal operating test temperature of 230*F, put it in the FANTASTIC Wear Protection Category.I also went on to test this oil at the much higher temperature of 275*F. At that elevated temperature, any hotter and thinner oil is expected to experience a drop in Wear Protection Capability. This oil had only an extremely small 0.7% drop in capability. Even at that elevated temperature, it produced 129,486 psi, which still kept this much hotter oil in the FANTASTIC Wear Protection Category. I also tested this oil for its onset of thermal breakdown point, which was 275*F.This was the first biobased motor oil I ever tested. And its performance was EXTREMELY IMPRESSIVE. These results probably surprise a lot of people, since this oil wasn’t even made from petroleum base stock. So it appears, there could be a very bright future for biobased motor oil, if they are formulated well.And the test data produced by this biobased oil, further backs up what I have said about a motor oil’s “base stock” NOT being all that critical, it is the “additive package” that IS critical.
Last edited by lobuxracer; 07-14-18 at 08:26 PM.
07-15-18, 04:51 AM
#300
Intermediate
Results are in for RLI's 5w-30. It performed quite well, it is number 4 behind the Amsoil Signature Series in load testing, and even at 275F, it only lost 0.7% of its load capacity. Daniel was right about it being really good oil. Now it just needs to produce used oil results after being in service.
Daniel is right about RAT's testing in one sense, but ultimately, oil performance in service starts with load capacity. If it isn't there from the start, it will only get worse over time.
I am now a convert. I'll be running RLI in all my engines with the very next oil change, and I'll be reporting back my lab results to show just how well it manages fuel dilution which I believe to be the biggest problem issue with our engines. Also - this is not the same oil Daniel linked (he specified the low ash), this is the oil RLI recommends for passenger cars:
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/
Daniel is right about RAT's testing in one sense, but ultimately, oil performance in service starts with load capacity. If it isn't there from the start, it will only get worse over time.
I am now a convert. I'll be running RLI in all my engines with the very next oil change, and I'll be reporting back my lab results to show just how well it manages fuel dilution which I believe to be the biggest problem issue with our engines. Also - this is not the same oil Daniel linked (he specified the low ash), this is the oil RLI recommends for passenger cars:
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/