Why is the RCF so heavy
12-29-16, 08:39 AM
#16
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
I wanted to give your response a few days of thought before replying.
First of all, you did NOT refer to performance aspect only. You referred to the RCF as a "pig". You also stated that Lexus claimed that the RCF/GSF are the most powerful race focused trims in their lineup. That may be a true statement as they're not making the statement against the competition and/or the industry. I've included the press release.
Press Release
http://pressroom.lexus.com/releases/...oduct+news.htm
You oversimplified sound deadening as "foam material" that doesn't weigh anything. There is a lot of technology and design that goes into reducing road/engine noise as exemplified by the LS 600h schematic below. Any "feature" for safety, sound or luxury adds up. I can almost guarantee that the weight of the rear seats compounded with the foam injection process in the front seats adds up to more than 50 lbs.
IMO, Lexus did not necessarily come up "short" because they delivered exactly what's advertised. Nonetheless, it sounds like you're bitter or "imbarrassed" because you didn't do your homework beforehand.
BTW.
First of all, you did NOT refer to performance aspect only. You referred to the RCF as a "pig". You also stated that Lexus claimed that the RCF/GSF are the most powerful race focused trims in their lineup. That may be a true statement as they're not making the statement against the competition and/or the industry. I've included the press release.
Press Release
http://pressroom.lexus.com/releases/...oduct+news.htm
You oversimplified sound deadening as "foam material" that doesn't weigh anything. There is a lot of technology and design that goes into reducing road/engine noise as exemplified by the LS 600h schematic below. Any "feature" for safety, sound or luxury adds up. I can almost guarantee that the weight of the rear seats compounded with the foam injection process in the front seats adds up to more than 50 lbs.
IMO, Lexus did not necessarily come up "short" because they delivered exactly what's advertised. Nonetheless, it sounds like you're bitter or "imbarrassed" because you didn't do your homework beforehand.
BTW.
Lexus did come short bc they stopped innovating and creating new exciting things. The engine on the RCF came from the same exact engine on the 2008 isf. While the isf competed well back in the days, old technology doesn't work anymore 9 years later (especially with more weight). Tell me which performance German vehicle still uses the same engine from 9 years ago?
Bitter or imbarrassed? Not at all for what I paid (spend a few more days and reread my other posts). The whole point of this post is to point out Lexus is being lazy and could easily developed a new chassis instead welding 3 pieces together and able to save 3-400 pounds. Like I stated, I would opt for the other brands if I didn't get a rediculous discount on the RCF. I did do my homework after all
12-29-16, 09:24 AM
#17
If you could reread between the lines, OBVIOUSLY I wasn't comparing tech, safety, luxury, reliability, sound insulation etc within the highest/most powerful model trim in each brand.
Lexus did come short bc they stopped innovating and creating new exciting things. The engine on the RCF came from the same exact engine on the 2008 isf. While the isf competed well back in the days, old technology doesn't work anymore 9 years later (especially with more weight). Tell me which performance German vehicle still uses the same engine from 9 years ago?
Bitter or imbarrassed? Not at all for what I paid (spend a few more days and reread my other posts). The whole point of this post is to point out Lexus is being lazy and could easily developed a new chassis instead welding 3 pieces together and able to save 3-400 pounds. Like I stated, I would opt for the other brands if I didn't get a rediculous discount on the RCF. I did do my homework after all
Lexus did come short bc they stopped innovating and creating new exciting things. The engine on the RCF came from the same exact engine on the 2008 isf. While the isf competed well back in the days, old technology doesn't work anymore 9 years later (especially with more weight). Tell me which performance German vehicle still uses the same engine from 9 years ago?
Bitter or imbarrassed? Not at all for what I paid (spend a few more days and reread my other posts). The whole point of this post is to point out Lexus is being lazy and could easily developed a new chassis instead welding 3 pieces together and able to save 3-400 pounds. Like I stated, I would opt for the other brands if I didn't get a rediculous discount on the RCF. I did do my homework after all
12-29-16, 09:36 AM
#18
467 Horsepower V8. Any Questions?
It’s a good day for engineers when they’re tasked with redesigning a 416 horsepower high-performance V8 to produce even more power and higher revs. The 5.0-liter V8 in the Lexus IS F made its mark. Now it’s the RC F’s turn. Taking the sound and feel of instantaneous torque of the LFA V10 engine as inspiration, the engineers essentially kept the cylinder block and replaced most other parts. Thanks mostly to all-new cylinder heads, higher compression and lighter internal parts, horsepower has soared by 51 hp to 467 hp, and the engine can now rev to 7,100 rpm vs. 6,800 rpm in the IS F. The compression ratio has been raised to 12.3:1 (from 11.8:1), boosting torque across the entire engine speed range. Improved engine and transmission cooling systems handle track-day driving.
Here’s where Lexus got creative. Uniquely for a Lexus performance engine, the new 2UR-GSE V8 runs on the Atkinson cycle when operating at cruising speeds, to help enhance fuel economy. It’s a trick picked up from the brand’s hybrids. In the Atkinson cycle, the inlet valves are held open longer than normal to allow a reverse flow of intake air into the intake manifold, thereby decreasing pumping loss and increasing thermal efficiency.
Lexus redesigned the VVT-iE (Variable Valve Timing-intelligent Electric motor) technology to extend the range of inlet camshaft timing adjustment for the Atkinson cycle. The instant more power is called for, the engine switches to the Otto cycle.
Special features of the RC F engine include titanium valves, forged connecting rods, an optimized exhaust layout to more effectively harness exhaust pulses and an air-cooled oil cooler for optimum durability.
New or redesigned parts include:
- Cylinder heads and cam covers
- Crankshaft: crank pin diameter, connecting rod big-end bearing size and crank counter-weight size are all reduced, to reduce reciprocating weight
- Crank main bearings and caps
- High-strength forged connecting rods
- Pistons and piston rings
- Titanium inlet and exhaust valves
- Intake manifold and throttle body
- Redesigned Variable Valve Timing-intelligent Electric motor (VVT-iE)
- Revised Lexus D-4S dual injection system
- Four-into-one exhaust headers and heat insulators
- Oil pan and baffle plate
- Alternator clutch system
- Engine and transmission oil coolers
- Spark plugs
Digging Into the Metal
- The new cylinder heads improve the 2UR-GSE engine’s breathing with improved porting and a high-flow/high tumble ratio. In addition, intake surge-tank capacity has been optimized, as have the intake manifold runner length and diameter.
- The new oil pan baffle shape reduces agitation and hence friction, while new air-to-oil coolers for the engine oil and transmission fluid increase track suitability.
- The Lexus D-4S dual-injection system has been redesigned, with higher injection pressure of 2,611 psi and improved fuel atomization.
- The throttle diameter was increased by 10 percent, from 3 to 3.3 inches (84 mm).
- A new intake camshaft profile increases valve lift and suits the Atkinson cycle, while improvements to the electronic VVT-iE system have expanded its range of operation for increased fuel economy and performance.
- New four-into-two exhaust headers help reduce interference and hence further improve engine breathing. The larger-diameter exhaust system is designed to reduce backpressure and sound amazing, especially under acceleration. At the same time, the main muffler keeps things from getting too rowdy at lower speeds.
- As a final touch, the new 2UR-GSE engine has a one-way clutch on the alternator pulley.
12-29-16, 09:48 AM
#19
Lexus Champion
iTrader: (20)
if the car was lighter and lost the quietness and windless sound of the car, i wouldn't want it lighter at that expense. I love how they made this car so quiet. actually amazed for a new body style in the first generation. I've caught myself going over 100 in a 55/65mph zone without even knowing it. its just so solid and quiet.
i can always make it faster. i know it won't feel light around the corners, but thats a small issue of me with what i actually use the car for.
i can always make it faster. i know it won't feel light around the corners, but thats a small issue of me with what i actually use the car for.
12-29-16, 02:47 PM
#20
Driver School Candidate
To be honest I test drove many different cars within and above the price range of the RCF, and in my opinion you can find something to pick on about any car, but when it came down to brass tacks I bought the RCF. Why? Simple. I felt safe, comfortable, surrounded with a beautiful interior, and a unique looking car. A well tempered car that was nicely balanced. All the right buttons were being pushed for me. This is not my first sports car and I am sure not my last, but for the present time I am very excited still with my RCF every time I drive it. So I guess weight has nothing to do with it for me.....does that make me a chubby chaser?
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12-29-16, 02:57 PM
#21
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Dude, some friendly advice, please spell check your posts. I am not being the grammar or spelling police but the poster you were replying to already pointed out your wrong spellings like 'imbarrassed" etc..Also 'rediculous' should be ' ridiculous. Again, I am not being impolite but I know you can spell better than this.
sorry chief. Not my best under oxy. Wont happen again
12-29-16, 02:59 PM
#22
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Exact engine? Did you not read the press release link? 416 HP vs. 467 HP that will get 26 MPG with a 4000 lb. car?? Are you kidding me?
467 Horsepower V8. Any Questions?
It’s a good day for engineers when they’re tasked with redesigning a 416 horsepower high-performance V8 to produce even more power and higher revs. The 5.0-liter V8 in the Lexus IS F made its mark. Now it’s the RC F’s turn. Taking the sound and feel of instantaneous torque of the LFA V10 engine as inspiration, the engineers essentially kept the cylinder block and replaced most other parts. Thanks mostly to all-new cylinder heads, higher compression and lighter internal parts, horsepower has soared by 51 hp to 467 hp, and the engine can now rev to 7,100 rpm vs. 6,800 rpm in the IS F. The compression ratio has been raised to 12.3:1 (from 11.8:1), boosting torque across the entire engine speed range. Improved engine and transmission cooling systems handle track-day driving.
Here’s where Lexus got creative. Uniquely for a Lexus performance engine, the new 2UR-GSE V8 runs on the Atkinson cycle when operating at cruising speeds, to help enhance fuel economy. It’s a trick picked up from the brand’s hybrids. In the Atkinson cycle, the inlet valves are held open longer than normal to allow a reverse flow of intake air into the intake manifold, thereby decreasing pumping loss and increasing thermal efficiency.
Lexus redesigned the VVT-iE (Variable Valve Timing-intelligent Electric motor) technology to extend the range of inlet camshaft timing adjustment for the Atkinson cycle. The instant more power is called for, the engine switches to the Otto cycle.
Special features of the RC F engine include titanium valves, forged connecting rods, an optimized exhaust layout to more effectively harness exhaust pulses and an air-cooled oil cooler for optimum durability.
New or redesigned parts include:
Digging Into the Metal
467 Horsepower V8. Any Questions?
It’s a good day for engineers when they’re tasked with redesigning a 416 horsepower high-performance V8 to produce even more power and higher revs. The 5.0-liter V8 in the Lexus IS F made its mark. Now it’s the RC F’s turn. Taking the sound and feel of instantaneous torque of the LFA V10 engine as inspiration, the engineers essentially kept the cylinder block and replaced most other parts. Thanks mostly to all-new cylinder heads, higher compression and lighter internal parts, horsepower has soared by 51 hp to 467 hp, and the engine can now rev to 7,100 rpm vs. 6,800 rpm in the IS F. The compression ratio has been raised to 12.3:1 (from 11.8:1), boosting torque across the entire engine speed range. Improved engine and transmission cooling systems handle track-day driving.
Here’s where Lexus got creative. Uniquely for a Lexus performance engine, the new 2UR-GSE V8 runs on the Atkinson cycle when operating at cruising speeds, to help enhance fuel economy. It’s a trick picked up from the brand’s hybrids. In the Atkinson cycle, the inlet valves are held open longer than normal to allow a reverse flow of intake air into the intake manifold, thereby decreasing pumping loss and increasing thermal efficiency.
Lexus redesigned the VVT-iE (Variable Valve Timing-intelligent Electric motor) technology to extend the range of inlet camshaft timing adjustment for the Atkinson cycle. The instant more power is called for, the engine switches to the Otto cycle.
Special features of the RC F engine include titanium valves, forged connecting rods, an optimized exhaust layout to more effectively harness exhaust pulses and an air-cooled oil cooler for optimum durability.
New or redesigned parts include:
- Cylinder heads and cam covers
- Crankshaft: crank pin diameter, connecting rod big-end bearing size and crank counter-weight size are all reduced, to reduce reciprocating weight
- Crank main bearings and caps
- High-strength forged connecting rods
- Pistons and piston rings
- Titanium inlet and exhaust valves
- Intake manifold and throttle body
- Redesigned Variable Valve Timing-intelligent Electric motor (VVT-iE)
- Revised Lexus D-4S dual injection system
- Four-into-one exhaust headers and heat insulators
- Oil pan and baffle plate
- Alternator clutch system
- Engine and transmission oil coolers
- Spark plugs
Digging Into the Metal
- The new cylinder heads improve the 2UR-GSE engine’s breathing with improved porting and a high-flow/high tumble ratio. In addition, intake surge-tank capacity has been optimized, as have the intake manifold runner length and diameter.
- The new oil pan baffle shape reduces agitation and hence friction, while new air-to-oil coolers for the engine oil and transmission fluid increase track suitability.
- The Lexus D-4S dual-injection system has been redesigned, with higher injection pressure of 2,611 psi and improved fuel atomization.
- The throttle diameter was increased by 10 percent, from 3 to 3.3 inches (84 mm).
- A new intake camshaft profile increases valve lift and suits the Atkinson cycle, while improvements to the electronic VVT-iE system have expanded its range of operation for increased fuel economy and performance.
- New four-into-two exhaust headers help reduce interference and hence further improve engine breathing. The larger-diameter exhaust system is designed to reduce backpressure and sound amazing, especially under acceleration. At the same time, the main muffler keeps things from getting too rowdy at lower speeds.
- As a final touch, the new 2UR-GSE engine has a one-way clutch on the alternator pulley.
12-29-16, 03:15 PM
#23
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
To be honest I test drove many different cars within and above the price range of the RCF, and in my opinion you can find something to pick on about any car, but when it came down to brass tacks I bought the RCF. Why? Simple. I felt safe, comfortable, surrounded with a beautiful interior, and a unique looking car. A well tempered car that was nicely balanced. All the right buttons were being pushed for me. This is not my first sports car and I am sure not my last, but for the present time I am very excited still with my RCF every time I drive it. So I guess weight has nothing to do with it for me.....does that make me a chubby chaser?
So you are saying you would have chosen the RCF over the M4, ctsv, c63 (which can't be picked up for high 40s low 50s right now) at FULL price like some early adopters did? Btw most traded up their RCF already... dont get me wrong, if you picked up a cpo or used 2015 for low 50s, its a great deal for what ou are getting
The following 2 users liked this post by CodyJames:
Colt45ccg (12-29-16),
Slash300zx (12-30-16)
12-29-16, 04:15 PM
#25
Driver School Candidate
Compared to direct competitors its a pig by over 2-400 pounds. Before anyone claim it has a heavy 5.0 v8, the corvette stingray has a 6.2 v8 and undercuts the rcf by 5-600 pounds. I know its not apples to apples, but the rear seats and seat belts doesn't weight more than 50 pounds.
So where does the excess weight come from? The Frankenstein chassis? What's weighing down the RCF that competitors lack?
So where does the excess weight come from? The Frankenstein chassis? What's weighing down the RCF that competitors lack?
I think the RCF has been getting so much bad press on the weight because it is being compared to the M4... BMW did a great job with on the weight of that car, but if weight were the most important variable we'd all be driving a lotus or miata.
Aston Martin Vanquish 3834lb
Aston Martin DB9 4166lb
Audi RS5 4050lb
BMW M6 4250lb
Cadillac ATS-V 3809lb
Chevrolet Camaro SS 3718lb
Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 3883lb
Dodge Challenger 4226lb
Dodge Challenger SRT 4493lb
Ferrari California 4123lb
Ford GT500 3850lb
Ford GT350 3796lb
Ford Mustang GT 3948lb
Jaguar F Type R 4088lb
Maserati GranTurismo 4140lb
Mercedes AMG C63 Coupe 4074lb
Nissan GTR 3950lb
Last edited by Colt45ccg; 12-29-16 at 04:16 PM. Reason: formatting didnt work right
12-29-16, 04:54 PM
#26
Lexus Test Driver
I am mostly fulfilled with the RCF, especially at the price i obtained it new vs performance for that price. I am just complaining Lexus could done better with the weight. Slapping 3 pieces frame together is not innovating or competitive. Choosing "just ok" does not cut it anymore in today's market, hence RCFs sat in dealers lot until significant discount
So you are saying you would have chosen the RCF over the M4, ctsv, c63 (which can't be picked up for high 40s low 50s right now) at FULL price like some early adopters did? Btw most traded up their RCF already... dont get me wrong, if you picked up a cpo or used 2015 for low 50s, its a great deal for what ou are getting
So you are saying you would have chosen the RCF over the M4, ctsv, c63 (which can't be picked up for high 40s low 50s right now) at FULL price like some early adopters did? Btw most traded up their RCF already... dont get me wrong, if you picked up a cpo or used 2015 for low 50s, its a great deal for what ou are getting
My M3 is probably around 3,550 and the RCF is just as much, if not more, fun to drive although I am still not getting deep into the rev range. Actually following break in because I am leery about BMW quality and don't want to provide any ammunition for warranty disputes.
12-29-16, 08:51 PM
#27
Pole Position
Wow, I did not realize many Euro brands on the list weighed more than RCF, especially the ones that I thought were exotic and fast. But many on the list are "porky", but looks sexy.
Overall, Lexus had done a great job delivering the RCF in a "balanced and complete" package.
Overall, Lexus had done a great job delivering the RCF in a "balanced and complete" package.
You know for a GT car, its not unreasonably heavy. Obviously it would be great if it weighed less, but I did a quick search for sporty coupes that were close to 4,000lbs and the list is fairly long (pasted below - it includes some RWD, AWD, US and Import cars - data came from the Car & Driver and Wikipedia websites).
I think the RCF has been getting so much bad press on the weight because it is being compared to the M4... BMW did a great job with on the weight of that car, but if weight were the most important variable we'd all be driving a lotus or miata.
Aston Martin Vanquish 3834lb
Aston Martin DB9 4166lb
Audi RS5 4050lb
BMW M6 4250lb
Cadillac ATS-V 3809lb
Chevrolet Camaro SS 3718lb
Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 3883lb
Dodge Challenger 4226lb
Dodge Challenger SRT 4493lb
Ferrari California 4123lb
Ford GT500 3850lb
Ford GT350 3796lb
Ford Mustang GT 3948lb
Jaguar F Type R 4088lb
Maserati GranTurismo 4140lb
Mercedes AMG C63 Coupe 4074lb
Nissan GTR 3950lb
I think the RCF has been getting so much bad press on the weight because it is being compared to the M4... BMW did a great job with on the weight of that car, but if weight were the most important variable we'd all be driving a lotus or miata.
Aston Martin Vanquish 3834lb
Aston Martin DB9 4166lb
Audi RS5 4050lb
BMW M6 4250lb
Cadillac ATS-V 3809lb
Chevrolet Camaro SS 3718lb
Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 3883lb
Dodge Challenger 4226lb
Dodge Challenger SRT 4493lb
Ferrari California 4123lb
Ford GT500 3850lb
Ford GT350 3796lb
Ford Mustang GT 3948lb
Jaguar F Type R 4088lb
Maserati GranTurismo 4140lb
Mercedes AMG C63 Coupe 4074lb
Nissan GTR 3950lb
12-29-16, 09:03 PM
#28
Pole Position
True that.
One of my coworkers traditionally drives Porsche 911's. At one point he had 4 911's ranging from the old air cooled to the new ones. He had always said to me nobody can beat Porsche 's pedigree. I always replied by telling him it is about time to try something else new AND DON'T be an OLD DOG!!! Besides younger chicks dig the new Lexus lineups (He WAS single at the time a few years ago).
Sure enough he made a switch to Lexus. Now he likes both aND got married.
One of my coworkers traditionally drives Porsche 911's. At one point he had 4 911's ranging from the old air cooled to the new ones. He had always said to me nobody can beat Porsche 's pedigree. I always replied by telling him it is about time to try something else new AND DON'T be an OLD DOG!!! Besides younger chicks dig the new Lexus lineups (He WAS single at the time a few years ago).
Sure enough he made a switch to Lexus. Now he likes both aND got married.
The RCF is a great car. It sits because it is beyond difficult to break into the performance coupe market in th $80k price range. People in this market tend to want German and are biased against Japanese. Some will simply never migrate over no matter how well the Japanese performs ala GTR.
My M3 is probably around 3,550 and the RCF is just as much, if not more, fun to drive although I am still not getting deep into the rev range. Actually following break in because I am leery about BMW quality and don't want to provide any ammunition for warranty disputes.
My M3 is probably around 3,550 and the RCF is just as much, if not more, fun to drive although I am still not getting deep into the rev range. Actually following break in because I am leery about BMW quality and don't want to provide any ammunition for warranty disputes.
12-29-16, 09:23 PM
#29
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
You know for a GT car, its not unreasonably heavy. Obviously it would be great if it weighed less, but I did a quick search for sporty coupes that were close to 4,000lbs and the list is fairly long (pasted below - it includes some RWD, AWD, US and Import cars - data came from the Car & Driver and Wikipedia websites).
I think the RCF has been getting so much bad press on the weight because it is being compared to the M4... BMW did a great job with on the weight of that car, but if weight were the most important variable we'd all be driving a lotus or miata.
Aston Martin Vanquish 3834lb
Aston Martin DB9 4166lb
Audi RS5 4050lb
BMW M6 4250lb
Cadillac ATS-V 3809lb
Chevrolet Camaro SS 3718lb
Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 3883lb
Dodge Challenger 4226lb
Dodge Challenger SRT 4493lb
Ferrari California 4123lb
Ford GT500 3850lb
Ford GT350 3796lb
Ford Mustang GT 3948lb
Jaguar F Type R 4088lb
Maserati GranTurismo 4140lb
Mercedes AMG C63 Coupe 4074lb
Nissan GTR 3950lb
I think the RCF has been getting so much bad press on the weight because it is being compared to the M4... BMW did a great job with on the weight of that car, but if weight were the most important variable we'd all be driving a lotus or miata.
Aston Martin Vanquish 3834lb
Aston Martin DB9 4166lb
Audi RS5 4050lb
BMW M6 4250lb
Cadillac ATS-V 3809lb
Chevrolet Camaro SS 3718lb
Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 3883lb
Dodge Challenger 4226lb
Dodge Challenger SRT 4493lb
Ferrari California 4123lb
Ford GT500 3850lb
Ford GT350 3796lb
Ford Mustang GT 3948lb
Jaguar F Type R 4088lb
Maserati GranTurismo 4140lb
Mercedes AMG C63 Coupe 4074lb
Nissan GTR 3950lb
as mentioned before, I wouldn't mind the 2 ton weight if the hp matches the increase
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LDEUX (12-31-16)
12-29-16, 09:46 PM
#30
^^^^ agreed. Not to also mention what a simple tune will do to bump the power up. I personally, loved the RCF when I tracked it privately 2 years ago. The only thing I wanted was more power. It rides so smooth the extra 50hp is barely felt so to speak. It's as if Lexus has been contemplating that 550hp mark due to the LFA.