RSWill

[QUOTE=LexFather;8627229]Are you referring to getting an RS5 in red/red or ??

Oh that Hell Cat is a straight up monster! We did a pro charged SRT8 back in 2009 and that thing was brutal to say the least.

jjscsix

I respect y'all's opinion, but don't agree. Time will tell.

SW17LS

Its not really an opinion, the numbers are what they are. Thats how BMWs are. The entry pricing seems good, but their base model cars are VERY sparsely equipped.

LexFather

The only way price comes into play is

1. A big difference, like a base RC F at 72k vs a loaded 95k M4.
2. RC F is priced as much or higher than a M4 with less equipment and the consumer doesn't want to buy the Lexus badge over the BMW one. They cannot see the value even if the RC F offers more.

For the most part the cars should be priced similar and even if they are 6-8k apart, its barely 10% of the price and maybe $50 a month for those financing. Not a deal breaker.

People what want the M4 will not even consider the RC F. Those that want the RC F might consider the M4 but they want their Lexus. In my years it seems most of the comparing at this level is by people on the internet. When people drop 80 grand on a car they want what they want and a minimal performance/price difference will not matter. What matters is the badge and what they see themselves in.

Every once in awhile we will see one or two people switch from a M4 to a RC F and vice versa but that is few and far between. The M4 has the BMW "M" lineage and people lining up to buy it. For now we still are unsure how the RC F will do. It won't be a ton of BMW customers buying. Most will be loyal Lexus/longtime Toyota fans, fans of other Asian brands and a few from Porsche/Benz/Audi/BMW etc.

SW17LS

This is the key of what Lexus needs to do, and what I think they actually are doing.

They need to not focus on trying to capture buyers from BMW and MB. Its not going to happen. What they need to do is build a lineup and family of cars that speak to Lexus buyers and keep Lexus buyers in the brand. This is why their styling language is as distinct as it is today, they're appealing to their customer and not really to competitor's customers. Over time I think this strategy is a winning strategy.

If I think about myself, I'm a Lexus buyer...obviously I've owned one at a time at least for the past 16 years. If I do branch out into a coupe...this RC RC/F speaks to me because I'm a fan of the brand. I'm going to buy it probably even if it was priced the same as an M4.

If somebody's a BMW fan and they aspire to an M3/M4...they're not going to consider an RC-F. What Lexus is trying to do is create a brand that consumers have the same level of allegiance to.

s4play

iTrader: (2)

+1 well said LexFather!

In reality the BMW fan base is about 10x what the Lexus crowd is. Don't believe me just go visit a Bimmerfest or Mfest event. I've been to enough Lexus events to know if you get half that crowd we are lucky.

Lexus is just not in the same realm as BMW, this is a new playing area for Lexus and even the mfr. knows it. BMW has been in this game a lot longer so it's no wonder they own this performance group.

Sure you will have a few converts and some who will buy the RC-F based on numbers but once you get into the $80k plus price range it really comes down to what the buyer wants. Most want a M-car

If you guys even venture up to Toronto, Vancouver or some of the other car mecca capitals with $$$$, you will see it's all about BMW and AMG cars.

ISF001

Lexus out sold Mercedes and BMW in 2014. Reality is sinking into the buyer market place.

vgsison

In this part of our world, there are more lexus converts from Merc and BMW. Why? Mostly because after sales support here from merc and bmw are inferior to the service given by lexus not too mention the higher cost charged to customers.

SW17LS

2014 is only half over LOL BMW and MB are also doping very well, Lexus isn't stealing those sales, the segment is growing. Which is fine.

smokey5lbc

I mostly agree with you. I'm sure at a certain level Lexus is thinking about taking from their competitors; the market is relatively finite. However, I really think that is secondary. I think Lexus' problem is that their core customer base, which they have successfully retained, is aging. The majority I'd bet are 45/50+. More income, less propensity/need to buy. Also (not to be harsh), that customer is at or nearing the second half of life. Lexus needs to figure out how to grab a younger demographic, which, let's face it, doesn't necessarily see the value of owning a Lexus. It's not "sexy." And in our current lease happy culture, concerns like dependability and long term costs of ownership are not primary like they used to be (and no, I don't have anything against leasing). The F line-up is definitely an attempt to win them over.

I do agree that most of the people currently eyeing an M or AMG, are pretty much sold. There will be a small segment that can be won over if RC meets expectations, and the F line continues this trajectory. But Lexus' will need to figure out how to win over young customers before they've become badge-washed (you know most of those people have no clue what the specs and tuning mean) AND maintain the ones they already have. That's a pretty wide gap for them right now. I imagine there are some 50/60 year olds screaming about that new spindle grill, forget about the RC. My two cents.

Nights

Quality over quantity

I understand what you're saying though. It's even worse here in Australia, where pretty much it's ingrained in the population that anything automobile related that's German is instantly "premium" and anything Japanese is automatically inferior - hence the hordes of people buying Volkswagen's looking down at Toyota/Mazda/Nissan owners.

The fact is that BMW/MB etc have had many years to cultivate the "premium" image whereas Lexus is very new to the ball game. As long as Lexus stick to their guns, and pave their own path, I think the brand will do fine. You can see in the recent products that Lexus is now confident enough in it's "Japanese-ness" that it doesn't have to try and be pseudo-Germanic, but rather forge it's own unique path. Hopefully it'll continue and Lexus will provide a new and fresh alternative to the one sausage three sizes formula that BMW/Audi seem to be going back to nowadays.

Just to address one of the points above though, I think there are some buyers (such as myself) who are cross shopping the M4 and RCF, although most M fans are diehards who would still drive a turd if it had an M badge on it ie. F10 M5

FinaLpeace

Mercedes do have better designs and their AMG line is too good for any other brands to compete against. The M3 actually lost to the C63 AMG few years ago in a comparison along with Audi RS4 and Lexus ISF. I'm a loyal Lexus owner that's because I'm not rich yet...... hehe

I love the Mercedes designs it's just more luxurious and with the AMG you can say additional sportiness along with top quality luxury design materials etc. The S Class is the top line up for Mercedes and it's way way way better than the LS for Lexus.

What's missing on the RC-F is the exterior design where I believe it needs to look more luxurious rather than a way better Scion-FRS. I honestly think the design of the car captures consumers more than the badge.

05RollaXRS

Which review was that? I don't think the E9X M3 ever lost to the C63. E9X M3 was always deemed the better overall car.

ISF001

You are comparing a Scion to an RCF?

That's like comparing a grain of sand to an island. You have the wrong class and price comparison here.

I predict the new RCF will end up eclipsing the competing cars in its "class" in overall performance--what really matters, and some of us actually like the new design of the RCF.

BTW: My buddy had the LS and just bought the new S-class supersedan. I like it, but the overall design of the new LS has it all over the new S-class.

SW17LS

Then why don't you own a Mercedes and post on MBWorld.org? I'm not being snarky, I'm legitimately curious.