Testing: Cold Air Intake design, not a short ram hot air or enclosed filter setup
09-28-12, 04:42 PM
#46
An intake tract with an interior ceramic coating is said to exhibit a lower level of heat penetration and a cooler mixture of air and fuel.
You do not want to have a ceramic coated thermal barrier on the outside of an intake. lol It will only help retain heat which is good for an exhaust system but not for an intake system.
On the outside surface area you want a thermal dispersant to help get rid of the heat. Coatings aren't going to do much with this application.. Water is an effective way to cool IATs as they pass thru the TB and into the manifold. That's my next approach of testing.
. I'm weeks away from any sort of progress most likely.
You do not want to have a ceramic coated thermal barrier on the outside of an intake. lol It will only help retain heat which is good for an exhaust system but not for an intake system.
On the outside surface area you want a thermal dispersant to help get rid of the heat. Coatings aren't going to do much with this application.. Water is an effective way to cool IATs as they pass thru the TB and into the manifold. That's my next approach of testing.
. I'm weeks away from any sort of progress most likely.
09-28-12, 08:38 PM
#47
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Thermal dispersant? No such thing. Do you mean thermal barrier? Thats why I suggested the coating. No matter where you put it - external or internal - it should work the same way. Heat will flow only one way - hot to cold. Not sure why you would think an external coating would trap heat in the intake, when the engine bay is typically much hotter than the intake air. Heat will tend to try and go into the intake. It cannot be "retained" in the intake pipe when its colder there in the first place.
Have you ever tried thermal coatings on an intake? I have. Not just automotive applications either. It works great in jet engine applications as well. Just a suggestion. Not trying to argue. If you dont think it will work for whatever reason dont do it. Just thought I would give some advice if you are worried about heat from the engine affecting your IAT.
Have you ever tried thermal coatings on an intake? I have. Not just automotive applications either. It works great in jet engine applications as well. Just a suggestion. Not trying to argue. If you dont think it will work for whatever reason dont do it. Just thought I would give some advice if you are worried about heat from the engine affecting your IAT.
09-29-12, 04:03 AM
#48
I appreciate the feedback. I'm RE from a phone so trying to keep it high level.
While I don't necessarily agree with the inside/outside intake coating it would add value. I just don't think it would be significant enough in this intake application to be worth the cost and effort. I'd sooner get my exhaust manifolds coated to cut down overall heat within the engine bay.
Have you measured temps in an auto application with coated intakes? Again, I would think an externally coated intake once heatsoaked would take far longer to cool with the coating trapping heat in the pipe making it more difficult to dissipate
While I don't necessarily agree with the inside/outside intake coating it would add value. I just don't think it would be significant enough in this intake application to be worth the cost and effort. I'd sooner get my exhaust manifolds coated to cut down overall heat within the engine bay.
Have you measured temps in an auto application with coated intakes? Again, I would think an externally coated intake once heatsoaked would take far longer to cool with the coating trapping heat in the pipe making it more difficult to dissipate
10-01-12, 01:53 PM
#49
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For a one-off DIY project, coating would be something I would do personally, but only because it would bother me forever if I didnt. If you were in production, I would agree it would probably be cost prohibitive unless you could do it in house, and even then, still maybe too much. The most you might gain back, considering the scenario where an untreated pipe is taking in a large amount of heat from the engine, maybe 5hp or so.
If I get the question right, I assume you mean after sitting off for a few minutes or in heavy traffic, yes this measurement has been done. As long as you keep the pipe material something with high heat conductivity (like aluminum), and do not coat the internal surface, it only takes about 30 seconds or less to cool the pipe to close to ambient after start up or at cruise speed. This assumes true cold (ambient temp) air intake and the time is dependent on total length of heat soaked pipe. With normal driving, or even at the race track a coated pipe will typically stay safely cool, as long as it does not run close to turbos or headers. Heat sheilds are then required. I've made that mistake once, and melted the first piston immediately after the throtle body.
Note how my intake pipe routed directly over the exposed exhaust manifold.
The result after a high speed run....
If you coat both external and internal surfaces, it will take a long time for heat to penetrate, but also takes a long time for it to be removed, so it is not something I recommend. If your coater gets something wrong or does not clean the interior surface well (this is a common issue) then the coating can flake off over time and will be ingested by the engine.
Regardless of what you do, I would suggest monitoring IATs in multiple traffic and idle situations, just to be safe. With it being a non-forced induction situation, the issue is probably a small one, but you never know....
If I get the question right, I assume you mean after sitting off for a few minutes or in heavy traffic, yes this measurement has been done. As long as you keep the pipe material something with high heat conductivity (like aluminum), and do not coat the internal surface, it only takes about 30 seconds or less to cool the pipe to close to ambient after start up or at cruise speed. This assumes true cold (ambient temp) air intake and the time is dependent on total length of heat soaked pipe. With normal driving, or even at the race track a coated pipe will typically stay safely cool, as long as it does not run close to turbos or headers. Heat sheilds are then required. I've made that mistake once, and melted the first piston immediately after the throtle body.
Note how my intake pipe routed directly over the exposed exhaust manifold.
The result after a high speed run....
If you coat both external and internal surfaces, it will take a long time for heat to penetrate, but also takes a long time for it to be removed, so it is not something I recommend. If your coater gets something wrong or does not clean the interior surface well (this is a common issue) then the coating can flake off over time and will be ingested by the engine.
Regardless of what you do, I would suggest monitoring IATs in multiple traffic and idle situations, just to be safe. With it being a non-forced induction situation, the issue is probably a small one, but you never know....
10-02-12, 11:25 AM
#50
For a one-off DIY project, coating would be something I would do personally, but only because it would bother me forever if I didnt. If you were in production, I would agree it would probably be cost prohibitive unless you could do it in house, and even then, still maybe too much. The most you might gain back, considering the scenario where an untreated pipe is taking in a large amount of heat from the engine, maybe 5hp or so.
If I get the question right, I assume you mean after sitting off for a few minutes or in heavy traffic, yes this measurement has been done. As long as you keep the pipe material something with high heat conductivity (like aluminum), and do not coat the internal surface, it only takes about 30 seconds or less to cool the pipe to close to ambient after start up or at cruise speed. This assumes true cold (ambient temp) air intake and the time is dependent on total length of heat soaked pipe. With normal driving, or even at the race track a coated pipe will typically stay safely cool, as long as it does not run close to turbos or headers. Heat sheilds are then required. I've made that mistake once, and melted the first piston immediately after the throtle body.
Note how my intake pipe routed directly over the exposed exhaust manifold.
The result after a high speed run....
If you coat both external and internal surfaces, it will take a long time for heat to penetrate, but also takes a long time for it to be removed, so it is not something I recommend. If your coater gets something wrong or does not clean the interior surface well (this is a common issue) then the coating can flake off over time and will be ingested by the engine.
Regardless of what you do, I would suggest monitoring IATs in multiple traffic and idle situations, just to be safe. With it being a non-forced induction situation, the issue is probably a small one, but you never know....
If I get the question right, I assume you mean after sitting off for a few minutes or in heavy traffic, yes this measurement has been done. As long as you keep the pipe material something with high heat conductivity (like aluminum), and do not coat the internal surface, it only takes about 30 seconds or less to cool the pipe to close to ambient after start up or at cruise speed. This assumes true cold (ambient temp) air intake and the time is dependent on total length of heat soaked pipe. With normal driving, or even at the race track a coated pipe will typically stay safely cool, as long as it does not run close to turbos or headers. Heat sheilds are then required. I've made that mistake once, and melted the first piston immediately after the throtle body.
Note how my intake pipe routed directly over the exposed exhaust manifold.
The result after a high speed run....
If you coat both external and internal surfaces, it will take a long time for heat to penetrate, but also takes a long time for it to be removed, so it is not something I recommend. If your coater gets something wrong or does not clean the interior surface well (this is a common issue) then the coating can flake off over time and will be ingested by the engine.
Regardless of what you do, I would suggest monitoring IATs in multiple traffic and idle situations, just to be safe. With it being a non-forced induction situation, the issue is probably a small one, but you never know....
I'm ready to start experimenting with 50/50 meth/water on the naturally aspired engine. I'd assume cooler IAT's but this additive still isnt addressing the undying issue of substantial IAT increase at stop and go traffic or long engine idle periods. We'll see how much more quickly IATs cool upon cruising though.
If coating can help and not hinder IATs at idle I'm all for it.
10-02-12, 11:48 AM
#52
The biggest issue with intakes on this car are two fold:1. Theres mainly only Hot Air intakes; filter position in engine bay pulling non cold air.
2. The piping position atop the motor; gets really hot, really fast.
We dont just want our source of air to be cooler but we want to keep it that way at most operating conditions (read cool, not freezing cold). When the car exhibits "heat soak" be it at long traffic intervels or race track, etc. It makes it that much more difficult to bring the air entering the TB and traveling the intake manifold to stay cool. A best balance approach is needed to not only pull cooler air in but also keep the intake tract from reaching rediculously hot temperatures.
Thats why I have developed Cry0MethNawzz - the perfect combination of c02, meth and nitrous. Of course its safe! From the makers of GForce Performance Chips!
10-03-12, 12:07 PM
#54
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Good insightful info., thanks! I'm still not sure where I'm going to end up with this.. I was asking if you took measurements of IAT's on this motor platform as it seems to vary greatly vs other platforms. The temp. numbers I observed increased greatly the longer the car sat at a standstill with the engine idling. Back on the road the cool down to the piping did not happen as greatly as I expected until after considerable (non-stop) driving was achieved.
I'm ready to start experimenting with 50/50 meth/water on the naturally aspired engine. I'd assume cooler IAT's but this additive still isnt addressing the undying issue of substantial IAT increase at stop and go traffic or long engine idle periods. We'll see how much more quickly IATs cool upon cruising though.
If coating can help and not hinder IATs at idle I'm all for it.
I'm ready to start experimenting with 50/50 meth/water on the naturally aspired engine. I'd assume cooler IAT's but this additive still isnt addressing the undying issue of substantial IAT increase at stop and go traffic or long engine idle periods. We'll see how much more quickly IATs cool upon cruising though.
If coating can help and not hinder IATs at idle I'm all for it.
However, the basics should stay the same. The main issue I see as you have addressed above are the stock filter location and the intake pipe location over the engine. I would suspect coating the piping would help significantly, but a heat shield may also be in order.
Meth injection always helps as long as you are injecting into a stream of hot intake air (you shouldnt have a problem finding hot air here LOL), but I hate meth setups because I always worry about pump failures or running the meth tank dry....
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