NA-T Questions?? Ask the Guru
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Joined: Jun 2017
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You're funny man, I am still learning from your setups haha.That na-t is looking good I think you have me reconsidering the treadstone on my next setup as it looks so good/simple.
I don't usually dive into all the HP numbers you can hit with what, but I agree I don't remember a 3" exhaust being a restriction for most BPU or APU setups.
Gerrb has alot more experience above 600hp than probably most members on the forum, so that is some good advice as always.
Silent, that should be ok as long as it doesn't get hot enough to melt, or get knicked by road debris. If you got it up high enough it should be ok.
Generally though, you should run the wastegate off the nipple on the front of the turbo if you have one. I would have drilled and tapped the cover if it wasn't there already.
If you already have the turbo on and it isn't tapped, then just run it from the intake but make it as short as possible and a strong vac/boost source.
Some wasetgates also don't like to see a lot of vacuum, but I did run mine for a few years off the intake manifold reference and it was fine.
It would boost a few psi higher connected to the intake manifold due to the pressure drop from the turbo, but it shouldn't make to much of a difference.
Make sure the wastegate line is wrapped or tied up in a way it can't swing or move and hit the exhaust piping or the wastegate itself, as it will melt if its a rubber line and you will overboost.
If there was a contest for the most important vacuum line in the engine bay, that would be up there with the fuel pressure regulator.
From me researching are all GE rails 11mm? I think I ordered the wrong ones dangit. Hopefully they can swap me out 🙃
do you have the early one you could measure?
Last edited by silentkill; Sep 7, 2019 at 10:22 AM.
You're funny man, I am still learning from your setups haha.That na-t is looking good I think you have me reconsidering the treadstone on my next setup as it looks so good/simple.
I don't usually dive into all the HP numbers you can hit with what, but I agree I don't remember a 3" exhaust being a restriction for most BPU or APU setups.
Gerrb has alot more experience above 600hp than probably most members on the forum, so that is some good advice as always.
.
.That is what I love about this forum , we all get to learn from someone else . I knew nothing being in the Information Technology Profession whole my life till I retired 6 years ago when I was 50 years old . Darn , am an old man I guess compared to many here. I hated turning wrenches till I made a promise to myself that I am not playing with these toys if I cannot work on them after being fooled by people I knew 10-11 years ago , taking advantage of my ignorance with performance cars.
Just for reference and knowing that seeing is believing .. Lawrence made 833rwhp on a PT-6870 on his 99 SC300 Daily Beater using a 3" downpipe / midpipe .. here is his thread on this forum though he posted this first I believe on supraforums : https://www.clublexus.com/forums/bui...ire-build.html
There are a good number of vehicles having made that power just with 3" piping but this one is right here on our forum and it was my inspiration when I finally decided to have an NA-t as one of my toys. Simple and yet it does the job ... again secret is a good Engine Management System for an NA-t .
3" down pipe
3" midpipe
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Joined: Jun 2017
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went back and looked at your post ali about injectors, i'm dumb and ordered 14's thinking they'd fit, hopefully i can exchange them otherwise i see there are 11mm to 14mm adapters on the market.
update: they are exchanging me for the correct ones, wooooo!
When I do get to wiring the injectors, does it matter where the pins for each plug go?
update: they are exchanging me for the correct ones, wooooo!
When I do get to wiring the injectors, does it matter where the pins for each plug go?
Last edited by silentkill; Sep 9, 2019 at 09:59 AM.
Yeah all the factory toyota top feeds are generally 11mm on the top. If you want to run the 14mm tops you would want to just use the after market fuel rail, I dunno if I would run adapters on both ends but one could do that.
swapping them out is probably the easiest with your setup.
For the wiring I want to say it doesn't matter but usually the EV14 connectors will have one red and black wire on them and just keep them like that with power and trigger wires.
When the injectors look like the old factory types that use the stock denso connector, I just follow how they do it on the stock connector one side is always power and one side trigger/ground.
I think it would work if it were to be swapped on most injectors, but I usually try and keep one convention across all of them.
If you are getting the adpapters from stock denso to ev14 plugs, those should make the wiring long enough to tuck the harness under the lower runner too.
swapping them out is probably the easiest with your setup.
For the wiring I want to say it doesn't matter but usually the EV14 connectors will have one red and black wire on them and just keep them like that with power and trigger wires.
When the injectors look like the old factory types that use the stock denso connector, I just follow how they do it on the stock connector one side is always power and one side trigger/ground.
I think it would work if it were to be swapped on most injectors, but I usually try and keep one convention across all of them.
If you are getting the adpapters from stock denso to ev14 plugs, those should make the wiring long enough to tuck the harness under the lower runner too.
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Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 652
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Yeah all the factory toyota top feeds are generally 11mm on the top. If you want to run the 14mm tops you would want to just use the after market fuel rail, I dunno if I would run adapters on both ends but one could do that.
swapping them out is probably the easiest with your setup.
For the wiring I want to say it doesn't matter but usually the EV14 connectors will have one red and black wire on them and just keep them like that with power and trigger wires.
When the injectors look like the old factory types that use the stock denso connector, I just follow how they do it on the stock connector one side is always power and one side trigger/ground.
I think it would work if it were to be swapped on most injectors, but I usually try and keep one convention across all of them.
If you are getting the adpapters from stock denso to ev14 plugs, those should make the wiring long enough to tuck the harness under the lower runner too.
swapping them out is probably the easiest with your setup.
For the wiring I want to say it doesn't matter but usually the EV14 connectors will have one red and black wire on them and just keep them like that with power and trigger wires.
When the injectors look like the old factory types that use the stock denso connector, I just follow how they do it on the stock connector one side is always power and one side trigger/ground.
I think it would work if it were to be swapped on most injectors, but I usually try and keep one convention across all of them.
If you are getting the adpapters from stock denso to ev14 plugs, those should make the wiring long enough to tuck the harness under the lower runner too.
*Note*
Injectors are not polarity specific, so power or ground can be run to either pin.
Yeah ID uses the EV14 injectors which are not polarity specific.
I don't think the older injectors that come factory on these cars (EV1 or EV6) are polarity specific either.
I personally try and keep the factory convention of having one side on all the injectors power and the other side ground.
On a turbo car the last thing you want is any kind of unintended fuel variation between cylinders, hence flow matching and stuff.
The more I thought about the polarity thing the first time I re-wired injectors was that I didn't know for sure that the injector lag or dead time is the same wired both ways.
There probably isn't a difference, but I always choose to wire the same side to power and the same side to ground across all 6 to just avoid the possibility.
I don't think the older injectors that come factory on these cars (EV1 or EV6) are polarity specific either.
I personally try and keep the factory convention of having one side on all the injectors power and the other side ground.
On a turbo car the last thing you want is any kind of unintended fuel variation between cylinders, hence flow matching and stuff.
The more I thought about the polarity thing the first time I re-wired injectors was that I didn't know for sure that the injector lag or dead time is the same wired both ways.
There probably isn't a difference, but I always choose to wire the same side to power and the same side to ground across all 6 to just avoid the possibility.
Alpha is a good tuner so it probably will as long as the water injection stays on point.
As I mentioned earlier have seen over 700whp on the stock GE block, head gasket and factory bolts, but on E85.
It's more the compression and pump gas issues, hence the water injection.
I personally rather install a tt head gasket and run a few more psi than deal with water injection, but everyone has a different recipe.
The first methanol injected 2jz I saw was back in 2008 in Maryland, it made good power but I decided it wasn't for me so I did the headgasket.
I would personally run E85 before I did the water/meth injection, but I do see the apeal of being inexpensive and easy to setup vs. pulling the cylinder head off which if you have never done it can seem like a huge project.
As I mentioned earlier have seen over 700whp on the stock GE block, head gasket and factory bolts, but on E85.
It's more the compression and pump gas issues, hence the water injection.
I personally rather install a tt head gasket and run a few more psi than deal with water injection, but everyone has a different recipe.
The first methanol injected 2jz I saw was back in 2008 in Maryland, it made good power but I decided it wasn't for me so I did the headgasket.
I would personally run E85 before I did the water/meth injection, but I do see the apeal of being inexpensive and easy to setup vs. pulling the cylinder head off which if you have never done it can seem like a huge project.
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Alpha is a good tuner so it probably will as long as the water injection stays on point.
As I mentioned earlier have seen over 700whp on the stock GE block, head gasket and factory bolts, but on E85.
It's more the compression and pump gas issues, hence the water injection.
I personally rather install a tt head gasket and run a few more psi than deal with water injection, but everyone has a different recipe.
The first methanol injected 2jz I saw was back in 2008 in Maryland, it made good power but I decided it wasn't for me so I did the headgasket.
I would personally run E85 before I did the water/meth injection, but I do see the apeal of being inexpensive and easy to setup vs. pulling the cylinder head off which if you have never done it can seem like a huge project.
As I mentioned earlier have seen over 700whp on the stock GE block, head gasket and factory bolts, but on E85.
It's more the compression and pump gas issues, hence the water injection.
I personally rather install a tt head gasket and run a few more psi than deal with water injection, but everyone has a different recipe.
The first methanol injected 2jz I saw was back in 2008 in Maryland, it made good power but I decided it wasn't for me so I did the headgasket.
I would personally run E85 before I did the water/meth injection, but I do see the apeal of being inexpensive and easy to setup vs. pulling the cylinder head off which if you have never done it can seem like a huge project.
I see the appeal as well, its a pain in the butt changing gaskets and redoing timing belt but I'm really happy i learned how to-do that, helped me understand more modern engines than I'm used to.
Yeah that's all true. I just personally feel like stock HG + studs seems like a ticking time bomb.
I see the appeal as well, its a pain in the butt changing gaskets and redoing timing belt but I'm really happy i learned how to-do that, helped me understand more modern engines than I'm used to.
I see the appeal as well, its a pain in the butt changing gaskets and redoing timing belt but I'm really happy i learned how to-do that, helped me understand more modern engines than I'm used to.
And when you do have to do the headgasket, it forces you to learn a little about everything, change all the different seals, and then you're set for a long time.
Pit Crew
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 154
Likes: 8
From: Nh
Silent, its funny you posted that as this was the guy I was referring to earlier who was running 402whp on his 100% stock s366 na-t. I actually commented on this very FB post, lol. Upped his turbo size, changed to water injection, added another psi and cams and added 20-25% more power. Pretty impressive given the setup. Curious how big of a difference the cams did as I have heard different things about how much different the 264s are from stock cams.
I am running non-oem coil packs with my car. They aren't eBay Chinese ones, I bought them through rock auto for the vvti sc300, and I reasoned at their price point it was better than used OEM...do you think this could be causing my "spark blowout" issue? It's not overly rich, sometimes shows 11:1 at WOT but at 10-12psi on 93 octane, detonation seems doubtful.
I'm running the recommended plugs and gapped down to .028", should I close them even more? What's the logical stopping point before it's just too far closed? I'm at wastegate pressure now and can turn it up more if it makes sense to try...but I don't want to add more than another psi or two and would close the gap first if need be.
Otherwise, it drives absolutely beautifully but only first gear pulls cleanly. In second and up it begins to misfire at 4k or above randomly and the thought of keeping my foot in it to see if it clears up above 5-5500 scares the **** out of me, so it hasn't seen too much prolonged boost.
I am running non-oem coil packs with my car. They aren't eBay Chinese ones, I bought them through rock auto for the vvti sc300, and I reasoned at their price point it was better than used OEM...do you think this could be causing my "spark blowout" issue? It's not overly rich, sometimes shows 11:1 at WOT but at 10-12psi on 93 octane, detonation seems doubtful.
I'm running the recommended plugs and gapped down to .028", should I close them even more? What's the logical stopping point before it's just too far closed? I'm at wastegate pressure now and can turn it up more if it makes sense to try...but I don't want to add more than another psi or two and would close the gap first if need be.
Otherwise, it drives absolutely beautifully but only first gear pulls cleanly. In second and up it begins to misfire at 4k or above randomly and the thought of keeping my foot in it to see if it clears up above 5-5500 scares the **** out of me, so it hasn't seen too much prolonged boost.
I figured that was the setup you were referring to. With the cams and bigger turbo they did add more power but I would think they also added some lag and pushed the powerband to higher rpm's.
Related to what you were asking before, I wouldn't want to guess where the stopping point is here with water injection without seeing all the stuff Alpha is on the standalone while tuning.
I would think this would be a good approximate though, but it's hard to say why they stopped there if it was knock or limitations of nozzle size, mix, etc..
You are on stock compression, so more chance of blowout and you may have to go down to .024-.026 then if you are still feeling it "miss".. I would stop at .024 probably.
What heat range and exact plug model are you running? you may be better off with a 6 range then vs a 7 range if you are keeping the boost under 12.
So BKR6EIX or if above 1 bar of boost most of the time then BKR7EIX. I always run the Iridium versions, they will take a beating and last where coppers will not.
Don't believe all the people claiming copper plugs are the best, they work just as good but they do not last as long, and with our intakes you are wasting a bunch of time on plug changes.
Don't know much about the aftermarket vvti coils, but if they are similar to stock then they should be fine. You could run sequential coils and squeeze a bit more gap out of them.
I would have the same miss in boost when I was on stock compression with the stock coil and vvti coils, gapping it down to where it stopped worked for me at the time.
Also I keep mentioning about using a manual boost controller and setting it at or a hair above the wastegate pressure.
The usual response is I don't want to raise the boost, but the idea is actually not to raise the boost.
Having the MBC set basically to wastegate pressure lets you prevent boost creep so the wastegate wont start to crack open at 6 psi or so.
This helps a bunch with spool, which is really noticeable on the bigger turbos, cause the wastegate wont see any cracking or opening until you hit the right psi so it won't bleed off boost.
The added extra bonus is that it makes the boost come in alot more predictably, which helps the ecu keep things stable and can sometimes help with blowout issues.
So you pretty much always want to have a boost controller installed (manual gets the job done and is inexpensive), regardless of if you want to turn the boost up later or not.
Related to what you were asking before, I wouldn't want to guess where the stopping point is here with water injection without seeing all the stuff Alpha is on the standalone while tuning.
I would think this would be a good approximate though, but it's hard to say why they stopped there if it was knock or limitations of nozzle size, mix, etc..
You are on stock compression, so more chance of blowout and you may have to go down to .024-.026 then if you are still feeling it "miss".. I would stop at .024 probably.
What heat range and exact plug model are you running? you may be better off with a 6 range then vs a 7 range if you are keeping the boost under 12.
So BKR6EIX or if above 1 bar of boost most of the time then BKR7EIX. I always run the Iridium versions, they will take a beating and last where coppers will not.
Don't believe all the people claiming copper plugs are the best, they work just as good but they do not last as long, and with our intakes you are wasting a bunch of time on plug changes.
Don't know much about the aftermarket vvti coils, but if they are similar to stock then they should be fine. You could run sequential coils and squeeze a bit more gap out of them.
I would have the same miss in boost when I was on stock compression with the stock coil and vvti coils, gapping it down to where it stopped worked for me at the time.
Also I keep mentioning about using a manual boost controller and setting it at or a hair above the wastegate pressure.
The usual response is I don't want to raise the boost, but the idea is actually not to raise the boost.
Having the MBC set basically to wastegate pressure lets you prevent boost creep so the wastegate wont start to crack open at 6 psi or so.
This helps a bunch with spool, which is really noticeable on the bigger turbos, cause the wastegate wont see any cracking or opening until you hit the right psi so it won't bleed off boost.
The added extra bonus is that it makes the boost come in alot more predictably, which helps the ecu keep things stable and can sometimes help with blowout issues.
So you pretty much always want to have a boost controller installed (manual gets the job done and is inexpensive), regardless of if you want to turn the boost up later or not.
Last edited by Ali SC3; Sep 16, 2019 at 01:46 PM.
Pit Crew
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 154
Likes: 8
From: Nh
I figured that was the setup you were referring to. With the cams and bigger turbo they did add more power but I would think they also added some lag and pushed the powerband to higher rpm's.
Related to what you were asking before, I wouldn't want to guess where the stopping point is here with water injection without seeing all the stuff Alpha is on the standalone while tuning.
I would think this would be a good approximate though, but it's hard to say why they stopped there if it was knock or limitations of nozzle size, mix, etc..
You are on stock compression, so more chance of blowout and you may have to go down to .024-.026 then if you are still feeling it "miss".. I would stop at .024 probably.
What heat range and exact plug model are you running? you may be better off with a 6 range then vs a 7 range if you are keeping the boost under 12.
So BKR6EIX or if above 1 bar of boost most of the time then BKR7EIX. I always run the Iridium versions, they will take a beating and last where coppers will not.
Don't believe all the people claiming copper plugs are the best, they work just as good but they do not last as long, and with our intakes you are wasting a bunch of time on plug changes.
Don't know much about the aftermarket vvti coils, but if they are similar to stock then they should be fine. You could run sequential coils and squeeze a bit more gap out of them.
I would have the same miss in boost when I was on stock compression with the stock coil and vvti coils, gapping it down to where it stopped worked for me at the time.
Also I keep mentioning about using a manual boost controller and setting it at or a hair above the wastegate pressure.
The usual response is I don't want to raise the boost, but the idea is actually not to raise the boost.
Having the MBC set basically to wastegate pressure lets you prevent boost creep so the wastegate wont start to crack open at 6 psi or so.
This helps a bunch with spool, which is really noticeable on the bigger turbos, cause the wastegate wont see any cracking or opening until you hit the right psi so it won't bleed off boost.
The added extra bonus is that it makes the boost come in alot more predictably, which helps the ecu keep things stable and can sometimes help with blowout issues.
So you pretty much always want to have a boost controller installed (manual gets the job done and is inexpensive), regardless of if you want to turn the boost up later or not.
Related to what you were asking before, I wouldn't want to guess where the stopping point is here with water injection without seeing all the stuff Alpha is on the standalone while tuning.
I would think this would be a good approximate though, but it's hard to say why they stopped there if it was knock or limitations of nozzle size, mix, etc..
You are on stock compression, so more chance of blowout and you may have to go down to .024-.026 then if you are still feeling it "miss".. I would stop at .024 probably.
What heat range and exact plug model are you running? you may be better off with a 6 range then vs a 7 range if you are keeping the boost under 12.
So BKR6EIX or if above 1 bar of boost most of the time then BKR7EIX. I always run the Iridium versions, they will take a beating and last where coppers will not.
Don't believe all the people claiming copper plugs are the best, they work just as good but they do not last as long, and with our intakes you are wasting a bunch of time on plug changes.
Don't know much about the aftermarket vvti coils, but if they are similar to stock then they should be fine. You could run sequential coils and squeeze a bit more gap out of them.
I would have the same miss in boost when I was on stock compression with the stock coil and vvti coils, gapping it down to where it stopped worked for me at the time.
Also I keep mentioning about using a manual boost controller and setting it at or a hair above the wastegate pressure.
The usual response is I don't want to raise the boost, but the idea is actually not to raise the boost.
Having the MBC set basically to wastegate pressure lets you prevent boost creep so the wastegate wont start to crack open at 6 psi or so.
This helps a bunch with spool, which is really noticeable on the bigger turbos, cause the wastegate wont see any cracking or opening until you hit the right psi so it won't bleed off boost.
The added extra bonus is that it makes the boost come in alot more predictably, which helps the ecu keep things stable and can sometimes help with blowout issues.
So you pretty much always want to have a boost controller installed (manual gets the job done and is inexpensive), regardless of if you want to turn the boost up later or not.
Yeah I'm currently running the 7 series iridium plugs at .028" gap. I'll gap them down to .024" and see how it goes. Where its a two hour job thanks to the crossover manifold, I don't want to do it more than i need to. I have a turbosmart MBC but currently have it closed all the way, so I assume I wouldn't see any of the advantages you mentioned without opening it up a few clicks. Predictable boost is great, I just need to find the happy medium where it is adding little to no additional boost, just to preserve my clutch.
Thanks!
Gotcha, try and gap it down a little bit more then and if that doesn't work you can try the 6 series plug but that should help.
If things are working better after that try turning it out a click at a time till you start to see a difference in spool, you shouldn't have to raise the boost.
You probably won't know where your max boost is at till you can make a clean 3rd or 4th gear pull, helps to have a buddy in the car when adjusting too the first time.
If things are working better after that try turning it out a click at a time till you start to see a difference in spool, you shouldn't have to raise the boost.
You probably won't know where your max boost is at till you can make a clean 3rd or 4th gear pull, helps to have a buddy in the car when adjusting too the first time.
Pit Crew
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 154
Likes: 8
From: Nh
Gotcha, try and gap it down a little bit more then and if that doesn't work you can try the 6 series plug but that should help.
If things are working better after that try turning it out a click at a time till you start to see a difference in spool, you shouldn't have to raise the boost.
You probably won't know where your max boost is at till you can make a clean 3rd or 4th gear pull, helps to have a buddy in the car when adjusting too the first time.
If things are working better after that try turning it out a click at a time till you start to see a difference in spool, you shouldn't have to raise the boost.
You probably won't know where your max boost is at till you can make a clean 3rd or 4th gear pull, helps to have a buddy in the car when adjusting too the first time.
Thanks again! Feels great to have all the bugs sorted out on this finally.