NA-T Questions?? Ask the Guru
06-26-16, 06:01 PM
#16
Driver School Candidate
copied your PM that I responded to
Hi, yeah that would work out fine. you can run 8-10 psi on 440cc injectors even and skip the piggyback, but yeah 550's and a safc should get you up to 16 psi on most turbo's even, thats about what I run most of the time I have 550's and a map ecu. safc will work fine and easier to setup just you wont get to set where boost cut is but with 550's I would think it will move it up to 16-17 psi for you at sea level.
you can use the stock distributor for that power yeah, just be sure to get a new cap and rotor from toyota. gap plugs down to .026 (you might be able to get away with .032 at that boost though).
JDM ecu and ds62 ignitor and just pin it up, ignition should work just fine. you can go coilpacks later if you want and add the extra wires. you still have to do the wiring down by the ecu to tie all 6 gte coils to the stock IGT ignitor wire. also note you have to change to map sensor also.
it is way easier than coilpacks and a good place to start. you can always go coils later on.
only tricky part is fitting an intake pipe on the turbo that doesn't rub on the distributor cap/wires, but you can use the 4runner cap to help, although its not the best solution it does work.
Also you run more boost on the w58 just be careful on the shifts like 2-3 and 3-4. I run alot more than that on mine and its been holding up just fine.
So you need the JDM ECU, TT map sensor, universal IAT (intake temp sensor), DS62 ignitor, Injectors, SAFC for 550cc's, and the fuel pump and tt headgasket are both good ideas, throw some arp headstuds to the list if you can afford them. also a 4 wire heated o2 sensor is a good idea and cheap online, its in the tt ecu thread.
The JDM ecu does not use a maf, so you will be needing that tt map sensor and intall a universal IAT and that will replace the maf.
This is ideal for boosted cars and the reason the mod works so well.
If your power goals are going up, then definately go with the 550cc and the piggyback, the safc will do the job and raise your boost cut to 16-17 psi at the same time which is nice, thats a good spot for reliable power on the w58 (assuming you don't have a giant turbo off a cummins diesel). Just make sure to get the new cap and rotor, fresh wires and plugs go with the iridiums BKR7eIX should work out just right. with the dizzy you have to drop the gap down, at low boost you might get away with .028-.032, but when I cranked the boost up on the dizzy I had to drop it down to .024-.026 so you might have to play around with it. you want as much gap as possible without brake up in boost.
If you get the "BKR7EIX" they come pre-gapped at .032 and you should only have to gap down a little bit if at all for 8 psi.
If you get the "BKR7EIX -11" they come pre-gapped at .042, don't get this one for the dizzy, you will have to really gap them down.
Hi, yeah that would work out fine. you can run 8-10 psi on 440cc injectors even and skip the piggyback, but yeah 550's and a safc should get you up to 16 psi on most turbo's even, thats about what I run most of the time I have 550's and a map ecu. safc will work fine and easier to setup just you wont get to set where boost cut is but with 550's I would think it will move it up to 16-17 psi for you at sea level.
you can use the stock distributor for that power yeah, just be sure to get a new cap and rotor from toyota. gap plugs down to .026 (you might be able to get away with .032 at that boost though).
JDM ecu and ds62 ignitor and just pin it up, ignition should work just fine. you can go coilpacks later if you want and add the extra wires. you still have to do the wiring down by the ecu to tie all 6 gte coils to the stock IGT ignitor wire. also note you have to change to map sensor also.
it is way easier than coilpacks and a good place to start. you can always go coils later on.
only tricky part is fitting an intake pipe on the turbo that doesn't rub on the distributor cap/wires, but you can use the 4runner cap to help, although its not the best solution it does work.
Also you run more boost on the w58 just be careful on the shifts like 2-3 and 3-4. I run alot more than that on mine and its been holding up just fine.
So you need the JDM ECU, TT map sensor, universal IAT (intake temp sensor), DS62 ignitor, Injectors, SAFC for 550cc's, and the fuel pump and tt headgasket are both good ideas, throw some arp headstuds to the list if you can afford them. also a 4 wire heated o2 sensor is a good idea and cheap online, its in the tt ecu thread.
The JDM ecu does not use a maf, so you will be needing that tt map sensor and intall a universal IAT and that will replace the maf.
This is ideal for boosted cars and the reason the mod works so well.
If your power goals are going up, then definately go with the 550cc and the piggyback, the safc will do the job and raise your boost cut to 16-17 psi at the same time which is nice, thats a good spot for reliable power on the w58 (assuming you don't have a giant turbo off a cummins diesel). Just make sure to get the new cap and rotor, fresh wires and plugs go with the iridiums BKR7eIX should work out just right. with the dizzy you have to drop the gap down, at low boost you might get away with .028-.032, but when I cranked the boost up on the dizzy I had to drop it down to .024-.026 so you might have to play around with it. you want as much gap as possible without brake up in boost.
If you get the "BKR7EIX" they come pre-gapped at .032 and you should only have to gap down a little bit if at all for 8 psi.
If you get the "BKR7EIX -11" they come pre-gapped at .042, don't get this one for the dizzy, you will have to really gap them down.
06-27-16, 08:17 AM
#17
Curious about your thoughts on a low-powered NA-T setup using the stock auto transmission. I'm talking about something in the 250-270RWHP range. Can the stock auto live behind this? Is it an issue of a 1-2 or 2-3 shift that kills the auto? This is just a fun cruiser car for me so I want to keep it as an auto, for the time being. Would just like a little more oomph when I hit the gas while already rolling. Can't imagine I'd be trying to launch from a dig or anything.
Its not so much which shift its about shifting under boost while windin it out o redline combined with how slow it shifts I think, I dont use automatics so my knowledge is a bit limited, but I know people who have run 400hp through them with trans cooler and doing the mod to tighten the shifts. under 300hp you shouldn't have much issues with it unless it was on its last leg already.
If you are staying auto invest in a trans cooler, it makes a difference. or if doing the tt ecu mod consider going with the GTE auto. I can tell you when I went Na-t with 325hp at the wheels I got bored of that in like 3 months, sure its a huge improvement over stock, but you are just tickling what single turbo can do, after a while you will want more. these cars come alive weight to power wise around the 400 mark. I would plan for that in the future.
You dont have to shorten the intake with the RM throtle body, RMR q45 will bolt to the 90mm mustang flange that is on there and since the TB is so short the piping will be fine also, so you don't need the q45 flange. not 100% sure but obd2 gte throtle body should be the same tps wise, just make sure its the main tps and not the trac control tps, cause the trac control one is the same as the sc300. you can also go to a junkyard an find one off a camry et... whatever turns the same direction, most of the toyota tps's are the same size/connector.
check supraforums also you'll have better luck there for the gte tps.
everyone on na-t should just start with a 7 range, unless you are going for big power then you should go 8 and you already know all of this then.
Do not run a 8 range on lower boost or the plugs wil foul out cause they wont get hot enough to clean themselves off.
06-27-16, 08:40 AM
#18
Common guys ... there should be more people who has questions about their NA-T. You better ask and take advantage of his expertise before this guy gives up his NA-T ... .loose interest on all these NA-T stuff and goes for a 2jzGTE SC430 .
I see it coming !
I see it coming !
06-27-16, 09:03 AM
#20
ehh.... more than 3 weeks and 4 people asking ?????
Out of thousands of SC owners only a handful wants to get more power out of their SC ? There are more than that who wants to go NA-T am sure !
Once he gets busy with his 2jzgte SC430 , he won't have time with all these NA-T questions , lmaol .
Out of thousands of SC owners only a handful wants to get more power out of their SC ? There are more than that who wants to go NA-T am sure !
Once he gets busy with his 2jzgte SC430 , he won't have time with all these NA-T questions , lmaol .
06-27-16, 09:19 AM
#21
ehh.... more than 3 weeks and 4 people asking ?????
Out of thousands of SC owners only a handful wants to get more power out of their SC ? There are more than that who wants to go NA-T am sure !
Once he gets busy with his 2jzgte SC430 , he won't have time with all these NA-T questions , lmaol .
Out of thousands of SC owners only a handful wants to get more power out of their SC ? There are more than that who wants to go NA-T am sure !
Once he gets busy with his 2jzgte SC430 , he won't have time with all these NA-T questions , lmaol .
I have a feeling the na-t questions will start pouring in soon, the good news is though the number of PM's i'm getting has decreased. more people have mastered the tt ecu mod and spreading the knowledge already which has helpd. If I added all the PM's up over all the years I've been on here I think it might be half as long as Gerrb's build thread which is rather sizeable still
I can't wait to start that 430 build, but it'll prob be next year or a winter build. My father wants me to keep it auto so he can drive it, but I just don't think I can resist dropping a 6 speed in there he might have to get his own one
06-27-16, 11:20 AM
#22
Hi Ali, I have one for you brother.
I got this evay ffim it has a flange for and the 1uzfe idle control valve and bolted up perfect.
My question is where would I route the smaller pipes air hoses?
I know the big fat one has to go right before throttlebody, but wasn't sure if I could plug them or they have to be routed back to intake or egr or??
Thank you for your help, I'm studying TT ecu mod and it's definitely in the works.
Here is a pic for food for thought
I got this evay ffim it has a flange for and the 1uzfe idle control valve and bolted up perfect.
My question is where would I route the smaller pipes air hoses?
I know the big fat one has to go right before throttlebody, but wasn't sure if I could plug them or they have to be routed back to intake or egr or??
Thank you for your help, I'm studying TT ecu mod and it's definitely in the works.
Here is a pic for food for thought
06-27-16, 11:50 AM
#23
good question, are you using the JDM or the USDM ecu for the tt ecu mod?
So the smaller hoses are actually for the coolant hoses that are on the stock motors.
They do not need to be used. if you grab them with a set of vice grips and keep twisting, you can actually pull them out so it looks cleaner, or just cut them off with a hacksaw its easy. you can also just leave them since its under the intake no one can see it.
reason I ask is it JDM or USDM for the tt ecu mod, cause if you are using the JDM ecu with a map sensor, or the USDM with a maf delete, then you don't need to route the air hose to the intake after the maf. you can just get the 2jzgte check valve and insert that into the grove under the IACV, and then stick a filter on the end, that is how I run mine and its cleaner. the check valve does not allow boost to escape and with a map unmetered air is not an issue anymore.
these are the part numbers for the check valve and grommet, and also gasket for IACV from Curt on supraforums
25748-88400 valve, check list 19.74 cost 14.80
90210-25001 rubber washer list 2.07 cost 1.55
22278-46010 gasket, iac list 3.79 cost 2.84
how it looks with the filter, you can see where I cut off one of the coolant passages.
If you have a ecu still that uses the maf, then you need to route that hose post maf. If you have the check valve and grommet, you can do it on the intake piping before the turbo and after the maf. if you dont have the check valve, you will need to route it to the intercooler piping before the throttle body, or else it will leak out boost under boost.
So Ideally...
if map sensor, have check valve and use open filter on IAC
if maf, have check valve and route hose between maf and turbo.
So the smaller hoses are actually for the coolant hoses that are on the stock motors.
They do not need to be used. if you grab them with a set of vice grips and keep twisting, you can actually pull them out so it looks cleaner, or just cut them off with a hacksaw its easy. you can also just leave them since its under the intake no one can see it.
reason I ask is it JDM or USDM for the tt ecu mod, cause if you are using the JDM ecu with a map sensor, or the USDM with a maf delete, then you don't need to route the air hose to the intake after the maf. you can just get the 2jzgte check valve and insert that into the grove under the IACV, and then stick a filter on the end, that is how I run mine and its cleaner. the check valve does not allow boost to escape and with a map unmetered air is not an issue anymore.
these are the part numbers for the check valve and grommet, and also gasket for IACV from Curt on supraforums
25748-88400 valve, check list 19.74 cost 14.80
90210-25001 rubber washer list 2.07 cost 1.55
22278-46010 gasket, iac list 3.79 cost 2.84
how it looks with the filter, you can see where I cut off one of the coolant passages.
If you have a ecu still that uses the maf, then you need to route that hose post maf. If you have the check valve and grommet, you can do it on the intake piping before the turbo and after the maf. if you dont have the check valve, you will need to route it to the intercooler piping before the throttle body, or else it will leak out boost under boost.
So Ideally...
if map sensor, have check valve and use open filter on IAC
if maf, have check valve and route hose between maf and turbo.
Last edited by Ali SC3; 06-27-16 at 11:57 AM.
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LEXXIUM (10-24-18)
06-27-16, 12:13 PM
#24
Is there any point to even try e85 with the tt ecu upgrade + mapecu3 (supports flex)?
I don't remember anyone using tt ecu + e85 in the build threads here or on sf, but could be wrong.
The reason I ask is because I was under the impression that it was safe to go 2x the stock injector size when using a mapecu. Then I was told last week that ID1000's would not work well with the USDM tt ecu unless I run only e85 which isn't a safe option for me as e85 is local but not everywhere I go.
There doesn't seem to be a definitive answer as to the maximum injector size with the tt upgrade, where the car will maintain 'factory' drivability and yet still be able to utilize e85. As e85 requires 30% more fuel, then the ID1000's become 700's, and if I have to start with 700-800's then for e85 they are really 490-560cc which seems terribly small for e85. I have no idea what type of power would be created with injectors effectively that small.
The forums have multiple builds from just using the stock injectors all the way up to Gerrb's moonshine still in his trunk, but there seems to be little information as to the 'in between' levels. No explanations given as to at what point you need to change the fpr, lines, pump, or multiple pumps, what works with tt map setup for flex etc... Some type of chart as to ... at this power level goal, do x,y,z and here is why...
A great example is almost all the builds change the fpr, yet never say why or whether it is even necessary for their given power level. Some builds change the fuel lines while others don't at the same power level.
For me personally, my goals are simple. I don't want to drop another 5k on a proefi setup yet. I want to get it running on the tt ecu + e85 if possible to hit the 600-800whp goal. I am confused enough now that I am completely unsure what I need to purchase to do it right with the electronics I currently have. Maybe my expectations on these electronics are unrealistic?
I don't remember anyone using tt ecu + e85 in the build threads here or on sf, but could be wrong.
The reason I ask is because I was under the impression that it was safe to go 2x the stock injector size when using a mapecu. Then I was told last week that ID1000's would not work well with the USDM tt ecu unless I run only e85 which isn't a safe option for me as e85 is local but not everywhere I go.
There doesn't seem to be a definitive answer as to the maximum injector size with the tt upgrade, where the car will maintain 'factory' drivability and yet still be able to utilize e85. As e85 requires 30% more fuel, then the ID1000's become 700's, and if I have to start with 700-800's then for e85 they are really 490-560cc which seems terribly small for e85. I have no idea what type of power would be created with injectors effectively that small.
The forums have multiple builds from just using the stock injectors all the way up to Gerrb's moonshine still in his trunk, but there seems to be little information as to the 'in between' levels. No explanations given as to at what point you need to change the fpr, lines, pump, or multiple pumps, what works with tt map setup for flex etc... Some type of chart as to ... at this power level goal, do x,y,z and here is why...
A great example is almost all the builds change the fpr, yet never say why or whether it is even necessary for their given power level. Some builds change the fuel lines while others don't at the same power level.
For me personally, my goals are simple. I don't want to drop another 5k on a proefi setup yet. I want to get it running on the tt ecu + e85 if possible to hit the 600-800whp goal. I am confused enough now that I am completely unsure what I need to purchase to do it right with the electronics I currently have. Maybe my expectations on these electronics are unrealistic?
06-27-16, 01:22 PM
#25
alright, that is a very good question, let me try and brake it down.
first going to start off with the tt ecu mod was not intended to run huge amounts of power, its really best for BPU type power ranges.
that being said, people have pushed it further and further and it has tradeoff's, so its up to you to decide where your breaking point is where you just say its not worth it and go standalone... and you don't need a 5k pro efi setup to do that, you can get used aem ems v1 that does all the basics for like 6-700 these days and it plugs in no harness needed.
There are 2 types of setups. standalone and stock ecu's.
standalones: you can do whatever you want. from stock to moonshine still and in-between, really all you need is a setup that will maintain proper fuel pressure at your level of fuel flow. so this is where more pumps (maintain pressure for a given flow), bigger lines (allows adequate volume), and bigger injectors (amount you need to inject at any given time) come into play for different in-between power levels.
now that we have standalones covered, let me touch base on the more complicated stock ecu upgrades because those deal with piggybacks like you said.
I will start by saying alot of guys regurgitate information they read on the web that is simply not true.
One of my goals is squashing all this misinformation floating around.
Regurgitated incorrect saying #1: piggyback means you can go 2x the injector size.
The reason this is BS is because this came from certain piggybacks which allows that much correction, but the thing is no one tells you that its not a good idea cause the car will drive like crap. meaning, once you change injectors so much, you are moving the basemap away so far that for proper fueling lets say at idle, you are in the wrong part of the fuel map and above a certain point, idle and cruising and stuff will just not work right due to timing and other factors. I call this "driveablity". I have been in cars before where people say it rides perfect with 2x the injector size, and I can tell you.. we must be looking at 2 different dictionaries of the word perfect cause I would describe it as crappy in everything but wide open throttle. I'm sorry but idling a 1200-1400rpm's with a terribly rich fuel mixture so the engine doesn't die is not "perfect" but for some people WOT is all they care about, me I want everything to work well. its just a limitation of the stock ecu's only has so many pre-programmed cells and the piggyback can only trick so much.
so lets say 440cc JDM ecu, I say you get good driveabliity out of 550cc and decent driveabliity up to 660cc on pump gas.
Lets say 550cc usdm ecu, I say you get good driveabliity out of 660cc, and decent out of 700-800range.
So why did I say you can get to 1000cc on e85?
The answer you kinda touched on already, since it requires that 30% more flow, its really like being in that decent drivability range I mentioned above when compared to pump gas, and the bonus on top of that is e85 tolerates extra timing very well, so those negatives for pump gas making the drivability worse, will actually result in more power on e85 up to a certain point (ecu wont advance any more than the base map even though you could on a standalone).
Regurgitated incorrect saying #2: I need to change my FPR
The answer to do you have to change your FPR is very simple, NO, you do not need to change your FPR unless you have upgraded your lines to a point where the return line needs to be larger and the stock one cannot handle that flow. generally speaking at that point you are replacing most of the fuel lines and system anyways so then yeah its a good idea, but if you are on stock lines, there is no reason to replace it.
Now that being said lots of people just like to slap bolt ons to their car, hks this, greddy that, shiny things, things that are good, things that are bad... whatever, doesn't mean they actually needed to do that. Ive read about 3 na-t setups that burned to the ground cause people replaced the fuel system who didn't know what they were doing and on the first start, SC down... don't let that be you.
Ok so lets say you are running the JDM ecu, you could get close to 600hp ish with 660cc injectors and have decent drivability on pump gas. You would likely want to have 2 pumps or one really high flow pump and the stock lines might barely cut it but might be time to upgrade those as well over 450-500 ish.
now 800hp on pump gas is pushing it even with a TT headgasket, really you wont get that kind of power reliably on pump gas even with a standalone and an awesome tuner, and thats with GTE pistons.. its just the limitations of pump gas coming into play. you would want to be on E85 I would say above 600. now if you did the 1000cc and E85 you could maybe get close, but you will definately need a solid pump setup and larger lines cause e85 you need more volume remember.
There are lots of examples of good e85 fuel setups in people build threads and you should take a look and ask them questions about the specifics, Gerrb has lots of knowledge on pumps and flow and line sizing, and I read his thread and other places he has posted and I agree with him 100% if you have to upgrade the lines and pump go with a little bigger than what you need for overhead and future upgrades.
A great resource also if you have some time is the map ecu forums, browse through all 3 ersions cause they are basically the same thing, just the newer ones have more extra features, but injector sizes and tuning they are all very similar. I have read a few threads of people using the JDM ecu and 1000cc injectors with the map ecu and having good results. It makes sense to me as per what I said above, but again I haven't done it so I dont know how great it is, but the math checks out with what I have been saying only 50% more size than stock and when you take the e85 and take 70% of 1000cc to compare to the pump gas ecu then you are basically at 50% over the stock size, which is within range.
so In summary, yes 2 times the injector size is an unrealistic expectation.
a realistic expectation is 50% more than the stock size, and like 70-80% more on E85 (maybe even more due to octane of E85).
The reason there is no chart or anything is because everyone does it differently, all of us got to this point through trial and error, like the first person to go coilpacks on an na-t with an aem ems v1 (on clubna-t at the time) blew his built motor twice before they figured out the base cal settings were wrong. these days alot of members have experience from what they tried and have heard about, and it gets complicated very fast.
basic na-t under 350 you need a walboro or tt denso, stock FPR and lines are fine, you can even leave the stock fuel damper in.
over 450 range you might want to look into a second pump and upgrading the feed line as you go higher.
for E85 or anything involving 1000cc, you want at least 2 pumps or one really hardcore pump, still 2 is a good idea 1 regular and 1 hardcore one, or even 3 pumps is very realistic in this situation.
If you want an engineers answer on "exactly" how many pumps you need, the answer would be to monitor your fuel pressure as you increase boost pressure and if it drops at all you need another pump. now alot of people don't want to wait till its in boost to find out they now need another pump, hence "over building" it from the start with lets say 20% extra flow you don't plan to use.
and then there is noise, like those really hardcore pumps get very loud, so alot of people will run a walboro or denso below a certain psi of boost, and "stage" the second hardcore pump to come on under boost where you wont hear it. OR some guys will have like 3 denso's and stage the second and third to come on at different boost levels.
then there are "boost a pumps", where certain conditions increase the voltage to your secondary pump for that extra umph.
Then on E85 you sometimes want a "slosh" (or surge) tank, not going to go into that atm but look it up and you will see what its about.
Finally note that on E85, every deposit in your tank and lines etc... is going to get dislodged and clog your fuel filter, maybe like 3 times or more in a very short amount of time. Do not be caught off guard when it happens cause clogged filters = bad fuel pressure = blown motor. some people even change the fuel tank out to avoid it, its the nature of E85, it keeps things clean. its not to be taken very lightly the swap to E85 or flex fuel, it requires quite an overhaul.
This is sort of the reason why alot of people stop round 500-600hp on pump gas, cause to get to that next couple hundred horsepower, requires a much more involved setup.
For the street I prefer a pump gas setup that would hit 600, but focus on good spool and power under the curve, like go with a smaller turbo with a quick spool valve and you will gain so much torque under the curve you could beat that guy next to you with 700hp on a laggy setup, it all just depends what you are building.
Now if you are talking drag and top end etc... then yeah slap the biggest turbo on you can find and swap it over to a overbuilt E85 setup and then laugh as the turbo rockets to 30+ psi, but at that point you would gain so much more power with a standalone vs a piggybacked oem ecu, and really you will want the failsafes that come with the standalone to protect your motor investment... like on a standalone you could have it monitor fuel pressure and boost cut if te pressure drops, lets say a pump fails or the filer clogged, it would save your motor.. but on that piggyback the chances of you realizing something is wrong and lifting off in time to save it is practically zero, and after a motor or 2 that standalone basically has paid for itself.
first going to start off with the tt ecu mod was not intended to run huge amounts of power, its really best for BPU type power ranges.
that being said, people have pushed it further and further and it has tradeoff's, so its up to you to decide where your breaking point is where you just say its not worth it and go standalone... and you don't need a 5k pro efi setup to do that, you can get used aem ems v1 that does all the basics for like 6-700 these days and it plugs in no harness needed.
There are 2 types of setups. standalone and stock ecu's.
standalones: you can do whatever you want. from stock to moonshine still and in-between, really all you need is a setup that will maintain proper fuel pressure at your level of fuel flow. so this is where more pumps (maintain pressure for a given flow), bigger lines (allows adequate volume), and bigger injectors (amount you need to inject at any given time) come into play for different in-between power levels.
now that we have standalones covered, let me touch base on the more complicated stock ecu upgrades because those deal with piggybacks like you said.
I will start by saying alot of guys regurgitate information they read on the web that is simply not true.
One of my goals is squashing all this misinformation floating around.
Regurgitated incorrect saying #1: piggyback means you can go 2x the injector size.
The reason this is BS is because this came from certain piggybacks which allows that much correction, but the thing is no one tells you that its not a good idea cause the car will drive like crap. meaning, once you change injectors so much, you are moving the basemap away so far that for proper fueling lets say at idle, you are in the wrong part of the fuel map and above a certain point, idle and cruising and stuff will just not work right due to timing and other factors. I call this "driveablity". I have been in cars before where people say it rides perfect with 2x the injector size, and I can tell you.. we must be looking at 2 different dictionaries of the word perfect cause I would describe it as crappy in everything but wide open throttle. I'm sorry but idling a 1200-1400rpm's with a terribly rich fuel mixture so the engine doesn't die is not "perfect" but for some people WOT is all they care about, me I want everything to work well. its just a limitation of the stock ecu's only has so many pre-programmed cells and the piggyback can only trick so much.
so lets say 440cc JDM ecu, I say you get good driveabliity out of 550cc and decent driveabliity up to 660cc on pump gas.
Lets say 550cc usdm ecu, I say you get good driveabliity out of 660cc, and decent out of 700-800range.
So why did I say you can get to 1000cc on e85?
The answer you kinda touched on already, since it requires that 30% more flow, its really like being in that decent drivability range I mentioned above when compared to pump gas, and the bonus on top of that is e85 tolerates extra timing very well, so those negatives for pump gas making the drivability worse, will actually result in more power on e85 up to a certain point (ecu wont advance any more than the base map even though you could on a standalone).
Regurgitated incorrect saying #2: I need to change my FPR
The answer to do you have to change your FPR is very simple, NO, you do not need to change your FPR unless you have upgraded your lines to a point where the return line needs to be larger and the stock one cannot handle that flow. generally speaking at that point you are replacing most of the fuel lines and system anyways so then yeah its a good idea, but if you are on stock lines, there is no reason to replace it.
Now that being said lots of people just like to slap bolt ons to their car, hks this, greddy that, shiny things, things that are good, things that are bad... whatever, doesn't mean they actually needed to do that. Ive read about 3 na-t setups that burned to the ground cause people replaced the fuel system who didn't know what they were doing and on the first start, SC down... don't let that be you.
Ok so lets say you are running the JDM ecu, you could get close to 600hp ish with 660cc injectors and have decent drivability on pump gas. You would likely want to have 2 pumps or one really high flow pump and the stock lines might barely cut it but might be time to upgrade those as well over 450-500 ish.
now 800hp on pump gas is pushing it even with a TT headgasket, really you wont get that kind of power reliably on pump gas even with a standalone and an awesome tuner, and thats with GTE pistons.. its just the limitations of pump gas coming into play. you would want to be on E85 I would say above 600. now if you did the 1000cc and E85 you could maybe get close, but you will definately need a solid pump setup and larger lines cause e85 you need more volume remember.
There are lots of examples of good e85 fuel setups in people build threads and you should take a look and ask them questions about the specifics, Gerrb has lots of knowledge on pumps and flow and line sizing, and I read his thread and other places he has posted and I agree with him 100% if you have to upgrade the lines and pump go with a little bigger than what you need for overhead and future upgrades.
A great resource also if you have some time is the map ecu forums, browse through all 3 ersions cause they are basically the same thing, just the newer ones have more extra features, but injector sizes and tuning they are all very similar. I have read a few threads of people using the JDM ecu and 1000cc injectors with the map ecu and having good results. It makes sense to me as per what I said above, but again I haven't done it so I dont know how great it is, but the math checks out with what I have been saying only 50% more size than stock and when you take the e85 and take 70% of 1000cc to compare to the pump gas ecu then you are basically at 50% over the stock size, which is within range.
so In summary, yes 2 times the injector size is an unrealistic expectation.
a realistic expectation is 50% more than the stock size, and like 70-80% more on E85 (maybe even more due to octane of E85).
The reason there is no chart or anything is because everyone does it differently, all of us got to this point through trial and error, like the first person to go coilpacks on an na-t with an aem ems v1 (on clubna-t at the time) blew his built motor twice before they figured out the base cal settings were wrong. these days alot of members have experience from what they tried and have heard about, and it gets complicated very fast.
basic na-t under 350 you need a walboro or tt denso, stock FPR and lines are fine, you can even leave the stock fuel damper in.
over 450 range you might want to look into a second pump and upgrading the feed line as you go higher.
for E85 or anything involving 1000cc, you want at least 2 pumps or one really hardcore pump, still 2 is a good idea 1 regular and 1 hardcore one, or even 3 pumps is very realistic in this situation.
If you want an engineers answer on "exactly" how many pumps you need, the answer would be to monitor your fuel pressure as you increase boost pressure and if it drops at all you need another pump. now alot of people don't want to wait till its in boost to find out they now need another pump, hence "over building" it from the start with lets say 20% extra flow you don't plan to use.
and then there is noise, like those really hardcore pumps get very loud, so alot of people will run a walboro or denso below a certain psi of boost, and "stage" the second hardcore pump to come on under boost where you wont hear it. OR some guys will have like 3 denso's and stage the second and third to come on at different boost levels.
then there are "boost a pumps", where certain conditions increase the voltage to your secondary pump for that extra umph.
Then on E85 you sometimes want a "slosh" (or surge) tank, not going to go into that atm but look it up and you will see what its about.
Finally note that on E85, every deposit in your tank and lines etc... is going to get dislodged and clog your fuel filter, maybe like 3 times or more in a very short amount of time. Do not be caught off guard when it happens cause clogged filters = bad fuel pressure = blown motor. some people even change the fuel tank out to avoid it, its the nature of E85, it keeps things clean. its not to be taken very lightly the swap to E85 or flex fuel, it requires quite an overhaul.
This is sort of the reason why alot of people stop round 500-600hp on pump gas, cause to get to that next couple hundred horsepower, requires a much more involved setup.
For the street I prefer a pump gas setup that would hit 600, but focus on good spool and power under the curve, like go with a smaller turbo with a quick spool valve and you will gain so much torque under the curve you could beat that guy next to you with 700hp on a laggy setup, it all just depends what you are building.
Now if you are talking drag and top end etc... then yeah slap the biggest turbo on you can find and swap it over to a overbuilt E85 setup and then laugh as the turbo rockets to 30+ psi, but at that point you would gain so much more power with a standalone vs a piggybacked oem ecu, and really you will want the failsafes that come with the standalone to protect your motor investment... like on a standalone you could have it monitor fuel pressure and boost cut if te pressure drops, lets say a pump fails or the filer clogged, it would save your motor.. but on that piggyback the chances of you realizing something is wrong and lifting off in time to save it is practically zero, and after a motor or 2 that standalone basically has paid for itself.
Last edited by Ali SC3; 06-28-16 at 11:00 AM.
06-28-16, 05:06 AM
#26
^^^ Dang ... I knew this guy is an expert . You can't explain it better than that . I hope my friend Ali do not mind me adding some input on his thread.
There is a good reason why you haven't seen many (if there is even any) build threads with TT ECU / piggy back with E85. Ali have already explained a lot about E85 , in addition ... one have to do a lot of research about it to understand its effects (good and bad) before embarking into even using it. Then ask yourself , is it worth it in my application or am I just riding into the wave of people using it to get more power.
E85 is not alway 85% ethanol .. it varies from 51% - 83% . It will vary from place to place (where you get it) and the time of the year based on weather / temperature. If you don't have a good ECU with failsafes that can protect your engine with those octane variations on top of what E85 does (effects) which Ali had mentioned above, you would will be screwed . No wonder he mentioned about blown motors. So do not get into the hype of using E85 if your whole setup is not ready for it . In my opinion , if you go E85, go with a standalone with good fail-safes and more important have a good tuner for that standalone. Then you don't have to worry whether you have E85 every where you go. That is what the flex fuel sensor for. The ECU on the fly adjusts your map based on the ethanol content or the lack of .
For me it is simple. For those who had asked my opinion about building a performance car , I always ask ...
a) What is the purpose , use or goal for that car ? . Is it a show , dyno queen, drag car , road racing car, daily driver or ...... ?
b) How much of the work will you do ? From engine / mechanical assembly .. to its maintenance ... electrical construction to its maintenance .. and so on ..
Once you know those two things ... build your car based on them . Do it once but right. Do not try to be cheap when it comes to Performance Parts especially moving / rotating parts. Otherwise you will be wasting a lot of time and money . Wanting a RELIABLE PERFORMANCE car is not cheap. Many of those who complain that their car is not reliable are the same people who use unreliable parts or who let people who do not know what they are doing work on their cars. Stick to your goals otherwise every time you read or hear about something like someone making this power or that , doing this or that , you change your mind . Not everything your read on the internet is true or correct. As Ali have said, a lot of people regurgitate non sense just because his brother, sister, nephew , neighbor, mechanic said it. Screw them like that guy gerrb ...lmaol, who keeps on building for more and who is never satisfied . Not because you hear someone is using ProEFI or AEM Infinity or triple TT Denso pumps , you have to use one or do it too. Don't build your car because of others.
Build your car based on your initial goal you have setup above taking into consideration who is doing the work cause that would spell the amount of money you will pour into the project. Buy stuff based on your initial goals or you will end up buying , changing your mind , selling and buying new parts again . Lots of waste of time and money. I have seen people start with a project goal of $5k and then end up pouring $20k and still have a miserable setup just because of the continuous change of mind brought about by him reading stuff on the internet . Which is another reason why so many starts the project , buy stuff and then never finish and you see them parting out items they have already bought.
Before I forget , as Ali have mentioned , the TT ECU upgrade is best for BPU upgrades . As you go higher in power goals , more and more stuff needs to be upgraded. It becomes expensive quick . A good example would be ignition. That involves your coils firing . Will it be better to have 6 coils or 3 coils (TT ECU upgrade) using wasted spark ? Well , let's leave that for another discussion.
If you don't have a lot to spend and just want a good daily driver for which you can play around every now and then on empty roads .. 400-500rwhp is all you need. Have you driven a reliable 500rwhp car and pushed it to its limits ? Some may not even be able to handle it. So don't be buried with the hype of having a very high hp car. A reliable 400-500rwhp car don't need E85 . Your SC300 2JZGE can easily handle it with reliable bolt on parts . You don't even need to upgrade your fuel lines... just upgrade your fuel pump and injectors to 440-550cc. You don't have to spend a lot. Talk to the right people and let the right people work on the car if you can't do it. The reason why people spend so much is they always change their mind in what they want or they talk / let the wrong people work on their car.
There is a good reason why you haven't seen many (if there is even any) build threads with TT ECU / piggy back with E85. Ali have already explained a lot about E85 , in addition ... one have to do a lot of research about it to understand its effects (good and bad) before embarking into even using it. Then ask yourself , is it worth it in my application or am I just riding into the wave of people using it to get more power.
E85 is not alway 85% ethanol .. it varies from 51% - 83% . It will vary from place to place (where you get it) and the time of the year based on weather / temperature. If you don't have a good ECU with failsafes that can protect your engine with those octane variations on top of what E85 does (effects) which Ali had mentioned above, you would will be screwed . No wonder he mentioned about blown motors. So do not get into the hype of using E85 if your whole setup is not ready for it . In my opinion , if you go E85, go with a standalone with good fail-safes and more important have a good tuner for that standalone. Then you don't have to worry whether you have E85 every where you go. That is what the flex fuel sensor for. The ECU on the fly adjusts your map based on the ethanol content or the lack of .
For me it is simple. For those who had asked my opinion about building a performance car , I always ask ...
a) What is the purpose , use or goal for that car ? . Is it a show , dyno queen, drag car , road racing car, daily driver or ...... ?
b) How much of the work will you do ? From engine / mechanical assembly .. to its maintenance ... electrical construction to its maintenance .. and so on ..
Once you know those two things ... build your car based on them . Do it once but right. Do not try to be cheap when it comes to Performance Parts especially moving / rotating parts. Otherwise you will be wasting a lot of time and money . Wanting a RELIABLE PERFORMANCE car is not cheap. Many of those who complain that their car is not reliable are the same people who use unreliable parts or who let people who do not know what they are doing work on their cars. Stick to your goals otherwise every time you read or hear about something like someone making this power or that , doing this or that , you change your mind . Not everything your read on the internet is true or correct. As Ali have said, a lot of people regurgitate non sense just because his brother, sister, nephew , neighbor, mechanic said it. Screw them like that guy gerrb ...lmaol, who keeps on building for more and who is never satisfied . Not because you hear someone is using ProEFI or AEM Infinity or triple TT Denso pumps , you have to use one or do it too. Don't build your car because of others.
Build your car based on your initial goal you have setup above taking into consideration who is doing the work cause that would spell the amount of money you will pour into the project. Buy stuff based on your initial goals or you will end up buying , changing your mind , selling and buying new parts again . Lots of waste of time and money. I have seen people start with a project goal of $5k and then end up pouring $20k and still have a miserable setup just because of the continuous change of mind brought about by him reading stuff on the internet
. Which is another reason why so many starts the project , buy stuff and then never finish and you see them parting out items they have already bought.Before I forget , as Ali have mentioned , the TT ECU upgrade is best for BPU upgrades . As you go higher in power goals , more and more stuff needs to be upgraded. It becomes expensive quick . A good example would be ignition. That involves your coils firing . Will it be better to have 6 coils or 3 coils (TT ECU upgrade) using wasted spark ? Well , let's leave that for another discussion.
If you don't have a lot to spend and just want a good daily driver for which you can play around every now and then on empty roads .. 400-500rwhp is all you need. Have you driven a reliable 500rwhp car and pushed it to its limits ? Some may not even be able to handle it. So don't be buried with the hype of having a very high hp car. A reliable 400-500rwhp car don't need E85 . Your SC300 2JZGE can easily handle it with reliable bolt on parts . You don't even need to upgrade your fuel lines... just upgrade your fuel pump and injectors to 440-550cc. You don't have to spend a lot. Talk to the right people and let the right people work on the car if you can't do it. The reason why people spend so much is they always change their mind in what they want or they talk / let the wrong people work on their car.
Last edited by gerrb; 06-28-16 at 08:30 AM.
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06-28-16, 10:51 AM
#30
^^^ Dang ... I knew this guy is an expert . You can't explain it better than that . I hope my friend Ali do not mind me adding some input on his thread.
If you don't have a lot to spend and just want a good daily driver for which you can play around every now and then on empty roads .. 400-500rwhp is all you need. Have you driven a reliable 500rwhp car and pushed it to its limits ? Some may not even be able to handle it. So don't be buried with the hype of having a very high hp car. A reliable 400-500rwhp car don't need E85 . Your SC300 2JZGE can easily handle it with reliable bolt on parts . You don't even need to upgrade your fuel lines... just upgrade your fuel pump and injectors to 440-550cc. You don't have to spend a lot. Talk to the right people and let the right people work on the car if you can't do it. The reason why people spend so much is they always change their mind in what they want or they talk / let the wrong people work on their car.
If you don't have a lot to spend and just want a good daily driver for which you can play around every now and then on empty roads .. 400-500rwhp is all you need. Have you driven a reliable 500rwhp car and pushed it to its limits ? Some may not even be able to handle it. So don't be buried with the hype of having a very high hp car. A reliable 400-500rwhp car don't need E85 . Your SC300 2JZGE can easily handle it with reliable bolt on parts . You don't even need to upgrade your fuel lines... just upgrade your fuel pump and injectors to 440-550cc. You don't have to spend a lot. Talk to the right people and let the right people work on the car if you can't do it. The reason why people spend so much is they always change their mind in what they want or they talk / let the wrong people work on their car.
even when welded the runners do not line up its basically a doglegged weld, you wont get even flow = different afr's between cylinders = your going to blow something sooner or later unless you like to tune super rich = just plain a waste of time at the very least.
And for the people who try and bolt it together using extra rtv etc... I am not sure I have the right words for how much worse that idea is even. literally speechless when people say they are going to do that.