scblackout

iTrader: (2)

Using built r154 on this project, but yeah the tranny is still going to be the weak point, even with upgrades, I am pretty sure that 600-700 will be the limit if it's built right. I'm actually 2jz na-t, not 1jz. Replied to this thread due to mapecu info, not the 1jz stuff. It was great to see someone posting on the forums here with experience tuning with the mapecu.

fried_rice

iTrader: (20)

Gotcha, I was reading and typing quickly, see you said "Auto ECU" I'll try to get some time to pull the hard-drives tonight after work. The base-map included with the MAP-Cal may be closer to the 850's. Though I need to check all laptops, as I've forgotten all the setups I've done.

From memory all the tunes have been 370's, 440's, 550's, Precision 1000cc and Bosch EV14 900cc with the MAP-ECU. I don't have my old Supra map with the 850's from 10 years ago, but that car was running that setup until about a year ago when it was switched to AEM.

Also the MAP-ECU forums have tons of tunes that you can check out. Every car is a little bit different and any of the base-maps out there will get the car started and running with just a few minutes of fine tuning the fuel map.

LoveSCs

iTrader: (2)

Hey fried_rice, you seem to have a lot of experience with the map ecu. I have a map ecu 3 in my car, and I am fairly versed with it. But have always had troubles getting it to come out of open loop. I had a thread going with mapecuman on his forum, and he said to unhook the O2 sensor from the oem ecu and leave it disconnected forever.

I have done this, but somehow the oem ecu still goes into "closed loop", probably due to coolant temperature feedback, and then I have to use a switch to switch over to the secondary fuel table which has about 5-6% more fuel across the board to get the afr's right after losing the startup enrichment that the oem ecu was applying. The car runs OK for me, it is not ideal, but I never lean out.

So, I'm just wondering what your experiences are with your and your client's vehicles? Do you leave the O2 sensor connected? Can you get the tunes spot on in both open and closed loop?

Also, have you ever had to adjust the timing table?

Thanks,

Keith

fried_rice

iTrader: (20)

I always unplug the stock O2 sensors. I can't remember exactly, been a while since I logged closed loop/open loop, and stock ECU parameters, but I believe the ECU will always be in closed under 3kish RPM. But It won't adjust to 14.7 with the O2 unplugged, it still gets relatively close and adjust for warmup if it's plugged in or not.

I've had a few cars run a bit rich while warming up. I tune when the car is fully warm. It's not too big of a deal to have the car warm up at 13.2AFR at idle vs 14.7AFR when fully warm. I'm in Texas, it's never really below 60-70F during the day, and most of the year cars fully warm up very quickly, ~2minutes. It also doesn't hurt to bring the engine up to operating temperature before driving.

With the stock O2 sensor plugged in, the idle and cruise in closed loop will tune itself perfectly as the ECU would adjust using the stock narrow-band sensor, but with a fast spooling turbo you'll run into the issue of a lean spot at 3-4k RPM when it switches from closed to open loop. A stock GTE ECU will try to fight the MAP-ECU, let's say 3500RPM you're making 18PSI, the stock ECU is transitioning from 14.7AFR, but you want to see 11AFR, you can nearly max the fuel table out (ugly table) and still be in the 12-13 range because the stock ECU is trying to trim 20% fuel. If you have a slower spooling turbo, you can use the stock sensor and it will idle and cruise fine and not go lean under transition, but with the turbo technology today that's not efficient.

Most of the cars I tune do not have the GM knock sensor modules, so I usually don't mess with timing much. The OEM ECU is already relatively aggressive with timing, and I always tune very conservatively. I have adjusted timing, but never on the dyno to maximize HP in all areas. To me, the small amount of extra HP gained is not worth the risk of detonation for the average person. Even for myself I don't want to monitor 10 channels of information to gain a small amount of horsepower, when I can just turn the boost up a bit to compensate and be very safe. I come from road racing, 20-30 minutes sessions, and have used the MAP-ECU, so being on the safe side is what I suggest.

99% of the street cars running MAP-ECU are daily driven and driven hard, and they're using stock internals. I would bet most people could not tell the difference or use 30-50RWHP when they're making 500-700hp with no traction control. My butt dyno reads in about 50hp increments. With varying road differences, tires, etc, can you really benefit from the extra power at all times versus just increasing the boost? Only if you're competing and driving 10/10ths, everything has it's compromises.

scblackout

iTrader: (2)

One of the 'big selling points' i kept hearing about with the gforce or mines tt ecu's is the lean spot removal. Is this the problem you are describing here? You mentioned earlier having tuned using gforce before, am I right to assume that with a gforce it is properly corrected so that it is not necessary to do on the mapecu?

If so, that sounds like a huge benefit to these moded ecu's as it means the 'base' map will look very smooth vs. manually correcting huge ranges.

fried_rice

iTrader: (20)

Yes, the stock tuned ECU's like the Gforce, mines, amuse, etc will eliminate the lean spot. That allows the best of both world's. You can keep the stock O2 sensor and use the wideband which will help with idle and cruising perfect and won't negatively affect the faster spooling turbos. It will drive 100% stock with no weird issues at all. It just depends on what you pay for the GForce ECU, map-ecu and tuning. You may be at the price of a standalone, if tuning is the same price.

Otherwise you need to remove the stock O2 sensor which leaves cold start warmup enrichment a bit off, but eliminates the lean spot.

scblackout

iTrader: (2)

That is great news indeed. All i have ever heard is about the nightmares with usdm tt conversion where everyone on jdm has zero issues. However the threads here on usdm conversions are NOT using the mapecu to convert to map, so those problems are expected it seems.

I picked up the gforce mapecu2 combo and expect tuning to be about the same cost as the hardware. There is no way I could ever justify dropping 5k on a proefi setup and install like some of the amazing cars here.

LoveSCs

iTrader: (2)

Thanks fried_rice! I also have not touched the timing table, figuring that the oem ecu will account for timing adjustments. So glad to hear that you do the same. That's the beauty of using a piggyback, you have the safety, reliability, and stock feel of a stock car. Cold start, warm start, doesn't matter, it just starts. And the map ecu has a ton of standalone-like features. It is the closest to a standalone that you can get with maintaining stock reliability.

And yes, since I leave stock O2 sensors disconnected, I did run rich at startup because of oem ecu startup enrichment. So what I did was, just used the primary/secondary map switch and used the one map for startup, and tuned that while warm but not yet quite clicked into "closed loop" (again, my car for some reason switches over to closed loop even though there is no O2 sensor connected). This gives me good afr's while warming up because I am in NY where my car can see weather anywhere from 40-100.

Then, I have the other map for when the car decides to switch over to "closed loop". At this point, my afr's were going lean and so had to apply about 5-7% more fuel across the map.

fried_rice

iTrader: (20)

The stock ECU will always run in closed loop even if it's unplugged. It will try to use the stock narrowband sensor to try to maintain 14.7 idle and cruise. During warm-up I still believe it's in closed loop, it just has a different fuel map parameter (think of it as your primary and secondary map switching) until it sees a certain coolant temperature, which it then will switch back into the primary fuel map with no enrichment. If the the stock sensor is plugged in it should compensate for the initial warm-up enrichment and the car would idle at 14.7AFR. WOT and decel where a certain RPM and TPS input is seen is the only time it switches to open loop and does not use the narrowband feedback to adjust the fuel map, that's because the stock narrowband sensor does not read 10.5AFR(stock tune WOT)/turns off injectors(decel) or anything other than 14.7AFR. At least that's what I've seen. But then you get the stock ECU fighting the MAP-ECU at some other areas, like I said before, and also I experienced funky tip-in conditions where the car will bog a bit. The ECU will still run off the stock ECU's fuel map with the stock O2 sensor plugged in or not, but it will not adjust the fuel trim via stock O2 sensor.

Utilizing the secondary map is a smart work around, the only thing that I wish the MAP-ECU had is a desired AFR table that would adjust the map on the fly utilizing the wideband, just like new ECU's closed loop tuning at all time. That would solve the issue. None-the less it's very user-friendly interface is nice for people getting into tuning for their first time. Setting up the features is easy and straight forward, once those are selected it's just a matter of messing around with a single fuel map, and you also have logging done inside the same software, for quick changes on the fly, using the F keys. A lot of other programs use a different software to read the log and switching back and forth while driving on bumpy roads get annoying quickly.

EDIT: I realized the new MAP-CAL 3.5 has cold start compensation. I haven't used it, but I'll try it on the next car I see the cold start issue with.

LoveSCs

iTrader: (2)

I have always thought that it would be nice to just have an afr table as opposed to having to tweak a fuel map to achieve desired afr's. I'm surprised that every piggyback and standalone does not operate off of that principle.

And yes, I have yet to try out the cold start comp feature. Might give that a try this season

zmds18

I am not sure why I haven't been getting emailed updates about this thread lol.

A lot of good information here. I have actually started looking more into building a MS3 system.

I just cant justify not being able to run larger injectors on 93 vs going E85 (minimal E85 stations here in central Illinois).

Flyboyzack

Yeah, man why **** around here? I've had numerous Supra people get frustrated with the piggyback like MAP-ECU3. I think to do what you need to do, I'd go V2 or Infinity. I think you'll regret it at 70-90% of the people eventually go stand alone.

I have an infinity and I love it. Now for my SC, I'm going ProEFI (build thread coming). I think but there may be some experts that have done this, but There's nothing stopping you from making a standalone a sort of piggy back. Keep the standalone for the important stuff, and the stock ECU for other tasks.

I'm wanting to go this route for the SC as it will be my DD and would like to pass inspections.

fried_rice

iTrader: (20)

I ran the old style 1000's on the Supra in the video with MAP-ECU-3. It ran on 93 octane, but had some tip in problems and idled at 13AFR, ran pretty well on E85. I've also ran Bosch 900cc's (ID1000 syle) and they're much better on 93, these were both JDM 440 ECU's, if I had a USDM ECU (550cc) the 900/ old 1000's would have been fine for 93 and still supported 700RWHP. This is obviously a compromise, you'll need to have someone that knows what they're doing to get all the parts to work together and tuned correctly, but for $300-400 you can get a used MAP-ECU-3. For $600 you can get an AEM V1, not as many features as the newer ecu(no support from AEM), but more tuners. Or for $1500 you can step up to the newer name brand ECU's.

MS3x is $850 new with all the sensors and 10 foot wiring harness (pre-built, fully assembled), they also offer a 1 foot harness cheaper if your ECU is under the passenger foot-well, or you're utilizing the factory harness.

This is what I'm doing with two built auto setups. MS3x for engine control, Stock ECU for transmission control. But there's no reason you can't mix and match which parameters you want each ECU to control and still read the OBDII Port like normal. Should be 7-800RWHP. Hoping to finish one this week, I'll post dyno video in here when done. It's a built 2JZ-GE with a cast manifold and 6766, BL Built Auto with billet sprag, 1200cc flex fuel setup dual Walbro 485's, etc..

I've also tuned a couple cars running the standalone as a piggyback, it's very easy to do.

Stock ECU gets crank, cam and speed signals and splits them with the standalone. Standalone outputs the ignition/fuel injection as well as converting to speed density.

Another EDIT: If you want to wire the MS3 or any other standalone that has a universal harness very quickly, you can use the stock ECU wiring harness and install it as a "piggyback" or even leave the OEM ecu disconnected, just cut the wires needed instead of splicing into them. It takes me about 30-60 minutes. 12-wires for the Ignition input/output, 1-Crank, 1- Cam, 6-Injectors, 1-TPS,1-Coolant Temp, 1-IAT, Power and Ground. Those are the basics then you can add your knock sensors, oil pressure, fuel pressure, flex fuel sensor, etc. etc

Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

its always a compromise, see how fast it gets super complicated. you will be better off on an entry level standalone.

zmds18

Fried, I'm going to pm with you some more specific questions.