Long Term SAFC Results
02-15-15, 12:44 PM
#1
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Long Term SAFC Results
so i've read quite a bit about the Apexi SAFC and people gaining anywhere from 5whp to 35whp on the 1UZ. i've also heard, from people who don't have SAFC's, that the stock ECU learns the changes and reverts back to stock. so has anyone who has installed the SAFC redynoed their car to see if the changes stuck around? I'll probably be supercharging my car with an M90 and some headers and free flowing exhaust and would like to know if the SAFC is worth the couple hundred bucks.
02-16-15, 12:04 AM
#2
Been researching on this (a bit), haven't found anything good yet. But I'd like to know as well, come na-t time it's either safc or gte ecu. Would kind of like safc just for the geek points heh. If I find anything good I'll post back, but I hope an OG (as lex luthor would say) beats me to it.
02-16-15, 06:18 PM
#3
I have a SAFC2 on a 1997 sc300. OBD2
And it's completely useless.
My ecu learned the altered fuel maps within 150miles and would compensate for it.
I wasn't going to keep resetting my ecu every 2 weeks so I set everything back to zero and the SAFC became just another gauge in my car.
I do sometimes alter the settings for a few passes or runs but I always set it back to zero when I'm done.
I've never read a clear answer if this happens on OBD1 cars as well, but I'd like to know the truth.
If you don't get a clear answer, look into these guys. http://www.mapecu.com/
And it's completely useless.
My ecu learned the altered fuel maps within 150miles and would compensate for it.
I wasn't going to keep resetting my ecu every 2 weeks so I set everything back to zero and the SAFC became just another gauge in my car.
I do sometimes alter the settings for a few passes or runs but I always set it back to zero when I'm done.
I've never read a clear answer if this happens on OBD1 cars as well, but I'd like to know the truth.
If you don't get a clear answer, look into these guys. http://www.mapecu.com/
02-16-15, 06:25 PM
#4
found this on an IS website(not CL) by TeCKis300
"Re-learning is not the issue. Bad tuning is the issue.
If your tune is bad to begin with, the stock ECU will attempt to correct the issue - hence this badly coined term of 're-learning'.
If your tune is in the right ballpark, the stock ECU will actually help dial in the rest.
If you've completely missed the boat, the stock ECU will again help, but this time to keep you from blowing up the motor. If that's the case, don't blame the stock ECU for 're-learning' and keeping your car from running. Point the finger at the bad tuning!
If you want to eliminate the O2's, wire in black boxes, and generally try to trick the ECU from keeping your motor alive, then be my guest. Again, it's the tune. Not the stock ECU."
kinda figured it was more of an operator error, but still, more info required!
i mostly wonder how well things stay in tune for an na-t living in the mountains/planes, i already take my sc3 from 5280 to 9000-14000ft almost every month.
i remember a time when a friends vw jetta took a crap in leadville(10k ft), i _think_ he had just recently brought the car into co from az(? - 1k ft) to his place in denver (5k ft). it worked fine on the drive from denver to leadville, but refused to start the next day. pulled the batt cable and put it back on an hr later, all was fine. i don't know if it was the diesel jetta but im sure his ecu was just flipping out from the massive elevation changes - which shouldn't be a problem on a stock car like his, just happens sometimes.
but that situation has had me wondering if it's ok(or safe) to run a na-t setup with safc with so much elevation changes it will have to deal with.
anyways, ill keep on the hunt. info info info....om nom nom.
in response to 1997soarer
i have read obd2 is more trouble, ecu has more....soul lol.
also another thing i've learned of the safc, if your not nerdy enough your ecu will outsmart you. i found a thread talking about setting everything to -40(hrz/amps/volts/dunno!!!) and slowly going up from there, if i pass by it again ill toss ya the link if ya like. j/w, are you running a na-t setup?
"Re-learning is not the issue. Bad tuning is the issue.
If your tune is bad to begin with, the stock ECU will attempt to correct the issue - hence this badly coined term of 're-learning'.
If your tune is in the right ballpark, the stock ECU will actually help dial in the rest.
If you've completely missed the boat, the stock ECU will again help, but this time to keep you from blowing up the motor. If that's the case, don't blame the stock ECU for 're-learning' and keeping your car from running. Point the finger at the bad tuning!
If you want to eliminate the O2's, wire in black boxes, and generally try to trick the ECU from keeping your motor alive, then be my guest. Again, it's the tune. Not the stock ECU."
kinda figured it was more of an operator error, but still, more info required!
i mostly wonder how well things stay in tune for an na-t living in the mountains/planes, i already take my sc3 from 5280 to 9000-14000ft almost every month.
i remember a time when a friends vw jetta took a crap in leadville(10k ft), i _think_ he had just recently brought the car into co from az(? - 1k ft) to his place in denver (5k ft). it worked fine on the drive from denver to leadville, but refused to start the next day. pulled the batt cable and put it back on an hr later, all was fine. i don't know if it was the diesel jetta but im sure his ecu was just flipping out from the massive elevation changes - which shouldn't be a problem on a stock car like his, just happens sometimes.
but that situation has had me wondering if it's ok(or safe) to run a na-t setup with safc with so much elevation changes it will have to deal with.
anyways, ill keep on the hunt. info info info....om nom nom.
in response to 1997soarer
i have read obd2 is more trouble, ecu has more....soul lol.
also another thing i've learned of the safc, if your not nerdy enough your ecu will outsmart you. i found a thread talking about setting everything to -40(hrz/amps/volts/dunno!!!) and slowly going up from there, if i pass by it again ill toss ya the link if ya like. j/w, are you running a na-t setup?
Last edited by eight; 02-16-15 at 06:33 PM. Reason: cheese!!
02-18-15, 08:16 PM
#5
No I've got a mild NA build. I've maxed out what I can do at this point without having custom parts built for me.
I was getting noticable effects with the SAFC2, but the ecu would compensate at around the 2nd week. Wideband readings would return to stock. Even ignition timing would shift to stock parameters. I've asked around and I'm not alone. My friend has an IS300 NA build with a GReddy emanage. Tuned on a dyno. He feels the power loss right around 3-4wks. Resetting the ecu brings all the power back.
I've heard of good results with the safc on already turbo cars, but in that case is the safc really working? Or is the factory gte ecu just that good at adapting to a few psi boost increase?
I'm no stranger to SAFCs either. I tuned my Integra myself with one and a narrowband. I'm pretty sure the safc will work with obd1 cars - it worked on my car when it was obd0 and it compensates for the injectors now that I'm obd1. BUT, I've always heard supra tuners say that the 2JZ ecus were pinnacle auto technology for the time and that they're more advanced than what toyota was using in their other sports cars of that era.
I was getting noticable effects with the SAFC2, but the ecu would compensate at around the 2nd week. Wideband readings would return to stock. Even ignition timing would shift to stock parameters. I've asked around and I'm not alone. My friend has an IS300 NA build with a GReddy emanage. Tuned on a dyno. He feels the power loss right around 3-4wks. Resetting the ecu brings all the power back.
I've heard of good results with the safc on already turbo cars, but in that case is the safc really working? Or is the factory gte ecu just that good at adapting to a few psi boost increase?
I'm no stranger to SAFCs either. I tuned my Integra myself with one and a narrowband. I'm pretty sure the safc will work with obd1 cars - it worked on my car when it was obd0 and it compensates for the injectors now that I'm obd1. BUT, I've always heard supra tuners say that the 2JZ ecus were pinnacle auto technology for the time and that they're more advanced than what toyota was using in their other sports cars of that era.
02-18-15, 11:32 PM
#6
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
your current car is OBDII right? it seems the OBDII doesn't work well, i'm OBDI so that's why i'm interested since our ECUs are pretty meh, especially the 1UZ.
02-19-15, 10:00 AM
#7
you can only tune open loop (basically wide open throttle) on obd1 and obd2 with a piggyback, and obd2 is more sensitive to throwing misfire codes from this type of tuning. anything in closed loop (under a certain throttle amount and rpm) the ecu will correct anything put in via the safc. these corrections can also confuse the ecu as the long term fuel trim will now fluctuate wildly from making changes in closed loop.
most people make changes only in open loop, above a certain throttle % like 75 and above certain rpm.
that way when the safc is making changes the ecu is in open loop already (hopefully) and will not "fix" the changes you make on the safc and will not adjust the long term and short term fuel trims.
The problem everyone gets into, is there is no perfectly defined point for going from closed loop to open loop and the ecu can fudge it up sometimes, and then the safc ends up correcting whiles its still in closed loop for a second, and then in time the ecu will also still get confused.
so as long as you can keep your tune on the safc in only the open loop portions of the stock ecu, you will have a good safc experience. if you do not though and set your throttle points and rpm points too low, you will be having to reset the ecu every week when the ecu gets confused (or more often). even if you get the tune right, its still recommended to reset every few weeks.
honestly the only improvement you can make on the 1uz is to take some fuel out on WOT as it runs so rich from the factory, or you can do intake and exhaust to breathe better and use up that extra fuel which is much better than a safc/combo. sure the safc might net you some extra ponies on a given pull, but it might confuse the ecu and take away a few ponies on another pull... and that is very frustrating.
it can be done with an safc, but no one should expect it to be easy or a set it and forget it type of deal, you will be playing with it all the time. really what v8 ownser should get is an aem fic-8 and a full tune and then you can even do forced induction later down the road... or even a full standalone would be nice.
most people make changes only in open loop, above a certain throttle % like 75 and above certain rpm.
that way when the safc is making changes the ecu is in open loop already (hopefully) and will not "fix" the changes you make on the safc and will not adjust the long term and short term fuel trims.
The problem everyone gets into, is there is no perfectly defined point for going from closed loop to open loop and the ecu can fudge it up sometimes, and then the safc ends up correcting whiles its still in closed loop for a second, and then in time the ecu will also still get confused.
so as long as you can keep your tune on the safc in only the open loop portions of the stock ecu, you will have a good safc experience. if you do not though and set your throttle points and rpm points too low, you will be having to reset the ecu every week when the ecu gets confused (or more often). even if you get the tune right, its still recommended to reset every few weeks.
honestly the only improvement you can make on the 1uz is to take some fuel out on WOT as it runs so rich from the factory, or you can do intake and exhaust to breathe better and use up that extra fuel which is much better than a safc/combo. sure the safc might net you some extra ponies on a given pull, but it might confuse the ecu and take away a few ponies on another pull... and that is very frustrating.
it can be done with an safc, but no one should expect it to be easy or a set it and forget it type of deal, you will be playing with it all the time. really what v8 ownser should get is an aem fic-8 and a full tune and then you can even do forced induction later down the road... or even a full standalone would be nice.
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02-19-15, 10:43 AM
#8
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Ali always with the best answers. i had my doubts with the SAFC and probably will just supercharge the car and leave all the ECU stuff stock. as for the AEM FIC 8, the website says it's for OBDII cars, will it still work for OBDI?
02-19-15, 12:25 PM
#9
yes it will still work for obd1, and since its meant for obd2, it has a bunch of extra features you might find usefull related to logging etc...
I like these piggyback ecu's for cars where its better to keep the stock ecu in the loop and you want to make modifications that will not be fighting the ecu constantly. Since there is no turbo v8 ecu out there floating around, like the is300 guys you might benefit from keeping the stock ecu in the loop, for them its for idl and secutiry stuf and obd2, for you its just the simplicity of your stock ecu doing all the stock stuff so well.
this type of piggyback has alot more wiring involved to do it right, as you wire up the injectors and everything through it so it can actually take over control when you want it without confusing the stock ecu.
or... if you are obd1 or obd2 who doesn;t care about emissions or plugging into a scanner, you can get a standalone for a 2jz, like an aem ems, which has the same connector as the v8 ecu, and then setup the standalone to work with the v8 instead in the software. this will be more expensive up front, but totally eliminates the stock ecu and gives you full control, without as much wiring as the piggyback. what you loose though is the factory tune for regular driving, but if you have a supercharger, a standalone tune might net you some ponies.
its all a trade-off in piggybacks vs standalones, but I would use at least the most advanced piggybacks like the ones meant for obd2 cause they are designed not to confuse the stock ecu.
anything like an safc that simply changes the maf signal into the ecu, is not an advanced piggyback and will confuse the ecu. the aem fi-c, is wired AFTER the ecu ouputs to the injectors, so the main ecu is blind to what the fi-c is doing except that it may notice the o2 sensor has a different reading, but the FI-c can feed a o2 sensor signal to the factory ecu to keep it from every changing trims, and then a wideband o2 on the piggyback provides the fuel correction as your main o2 sensor. its complicated stuff but will actually work well in the end unlike an safc.
the megasquirt is also a standalone option that more people are using, and is arguably better than alot of the other entry level standalones if you know what you are doing. there is a sc400 build thread where a member from scandanavia is using one of those on his v8.
I like these piggyback ecu's for cars where its better to keep the stock ecu in the loop and you want to make modifications that will not be fighting the ecu constantly. Since there is no turbo v8 ecu out there floating around, like the is300 guys you might benefit from keeping the stock ecu in the loop, for them its for idl and secutiry stuf and obd2, for you its just the simplicity of your stock ecu doing all the stock stuff so well.
this type of piggyback has alot more wiring involved to do it right, as you wire up the injectors and everything through it so it can actually take over control when you want it without confusing the stock ecu.
or... if you are obd1 or obd2 who doesn;t care about emissions or plugging into a scanner, you can get a standalone for a 2jz, like an aem ems, which has the same connector as the v8 ecu, and then setup the standalone to work with the v8 instead in the software. this will be more expensive up front, but totally eliminates the stock ecu and gives you full control, without as much wiring as the piggyback. what you loose though is the factory tune for regular driving, but if you have a supercharger, a standalone tune might net you some ponies.
its all a trade-off in piggybacks vs standalones, but I would use at least the most advanced piggybacks like the ones meant for obd2 cause they are designed not to confuse the stock ecu.
anything like an safc that simply changes the maf signal into the ecu, is not an advanced piggyback and will confuse the ecu. the aem fi-c, is wired AFTER the ecu ouputs to the injectors, so the main ecu is blind to what the fi-c is doing except that it may notice the o2 sensor has a different reading, but the FI-c can feed a o2 sensor signal to the factory ecu to keep it from every changing trims, and then a wideband o2 on the piggyback provides the fuel correction as your main o2 sensor. its complicated stuff but will actually work well in the end unlike an safc.
the megasquirt is also a standalone option that more people are using, and is arguably better than alot of the other entry level standalones if you know what you are doing. there is a sc400 build thread where a member from scandanavia is using one of those on his v8.
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