sc3 n/a FFIM performance?
12-07-12, 01:30 PM
#1
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sc3 n/a FFIM performance?
yesterday somebody told me my car would run horribly if i put a FFIM on a n/a sc3 because "the air flow is not even, as opposed to how the stock one evenly distributes air to every cylinder"
at first i didnt think about it and took his word, but now that im sober and put thought into it, my brain says that air is only so dense, and its not like all the intake valves are open at the same time, so in theory the air should be at a constant density, and upon acceleration, its only going to suck in more air.
ive read that its been done often, but im not sure if those are turbo'd engines or not.
i would do this mod strictly for ease of spark plug changing, and i think it looks much cleaner, if my car doesnt run poorly.
TLDR: will a FFIM make a NA sc300 run like crap?
at first i didnt think about it and took his word, but now that im sober and put thought into it, my brain says that air is only so dense, and its not like all the intake valves are open at the same time, so in theory the air should be at a constant density, and upon acceleration, its only going to suck in more air.
ive read that its been done often, but im not sure if those are turbo'd engines or not.
i would do this mod strictly for ease of spark plug changing, and i think it looks much cleaner, if my car doesnt run poorly.
TLDR: will a FFIM make a NA sc300 run like crap?
12-07-12, 01:45 PM
#4
It will not run like crap, however your low end torque will suffer and the only reason to switch over is primarily for aesthetics. Fitment of a turbo on the exhaust side is tight when the throttle body inlet is right above the turbine housing.
Make sure and have all your ducks in a row if you decide to go FFIM. I went with a kit from FSMoto that had everything included but it wasn't as bolt on friendly as I had hoped, alot more involved. Now that it's done it looks pretty and simplifies the engine bay but if your staying NA then there is no reason to do this as the torque suffers.
Make sure and have all your ducks in a row if you decide to go FFIM. I went with a kit from FSMoto that had everything included but it wasn't as bolt on friendly as I had hoped, alot more involved. Now that it's done it looks pretty and simplifies the engine bay but if your staying NA then there is no reason to do this as the torque suffers.
12-07-12, 01:54 PM
#5
Yes? That's it? And all in shorthand text, wow.
4g63's have the exact same intake manifold regardless of turbo or not.
It's just runner length, it's not re-inventing physics.
I personally have a FFIM on a N/A 2jzge running GTE electronics. Want to tell me it's not going to run?
The answer is, unless the person you are talking to is an engineer, no one knows what they are really talking about in regards to "Back pressure", "Choke-flow", "Volume of air at .XXX Lift", etc.
Air is pumped into an engine at a way faster rate than even synapses in your brain can fire off.
Adding a turbocharger? Even faster.
People talk like they can actually conceptualize how fast combustion takes place by making logical arguments, but the truth is they can't. I can't No one can.
Got a fluid modeling software and some hard data to back up such a preposterous notion? Then I'd be inclined to believe.
I will make 200hp/200tq with my setup N/A and it's got a GTE ECU, 440cc 7MGTE injectors, a Supra FFIM, and internally ignited coil-packs.
And somehow, all without a rocket-science degree.
4g63's have the exact same intake manifold regardless of turbo or not.
It's just runner length, it's not re-inventing physics.
I personally have a FFIM on a N/A 2jzge running GTE electronics. Want to tell me it's not going to run?
The answer is, unless the person you are talking to is an engineer, no one knows what they are really talking about in regards to "Back pressure", "Choke-flow", "Volume of air at .XXX Lift", etc.
Air is pumped into an engine at a way faster rate than even synapses in your brain can fire off.
Adding a turbocharger? Even faster.
People talk like they can actually conceptualize how fast combustion takes place by making logical arguments, but the truth is they can't. I can't No one can.
Got a fluid modeling software and some hard data to back up such a preposterous notion? Then I'd be inclined to believe.
I will make 200hp/200tq with my setup N/A and it's got a GTE ECU, 440cc 7MGTE injectors, a Supra FFIM, and internally ignited coil-packs.
And somehow, all without a rocket-science degree.
12-08-12, 09:13 AM
#6
Spoolxexo is correct, it is directly related to runner length. it will run just fine, if you have never driven it without the stock intake you would not be able to tell, but if you are used to the stock intake you will feel a little low end power loss.
the stock intake generates more torque down low because in lower rpm's and more then 60% throttle, the ACIS butterfly in the intake closes creating a long runner condition, which increases the intake air velocity on each runner, therefore giving you some much needed extra torque on an n/a engine.
at all other times, the ACIS is open, and in a short runner condition which basically it becomes similar to the dynamics of a FFIM, except the chamber is filled from the center.
this is simple stuff and is why toyota put the ACIS system on all n/a models along with the bump in compression.
This was in an attempt to make the n/a cars have a bit more punch down low, which is exactly where alot of these inline motors struggle.
fortunately, the 2jz is the end of a long line of inline motors and they really got it so good with the 2jzge that it has enough power to not miss it that much, but IMO I would only ever take the stocker off for a FFIM when turbocharged or planning on doing so. Its alot of work just for easier plug changes.
If you bypass the throttle body coolant lines, and don't put half the brackets back on under the throttle body when putting it back together, you can get that throttle body off and do plug changed pretty quick. If you fight that lower coolant hose on the front of the throttle body every time, you will be spending an extra 10 minutes getting it off and even longer getting that snap ring back on.
the stock intake generates more torque down low because in lower rpm's and more then 60% throttle, the ACIS butterfly in the intake closes creating a long runner condition, which increases the intake air velocity on each runner, therefore giving you some much needed extra torque on an n/a engine.
at all other times, the ACIS is open, and in a short runner condition which basically it becomes similar to the dynamics of a FFIM, except the chamber is filled from the center.
this is simple stuff and is why toyota put the ACIS system on all n/a models along with the bump in compression.
This was in an attempt to make the n/a cars have a bit more punch down low, which is exactly where alot of these inline motors struggle.
fortunately, the 2jz is the end of a long line of inline motors and they really got it so good with the 2jzge that it has enough power to not miss it that much, but IMO I would only ever take the stocker off for a FFIM when turbocharged or planning on doing so. Its alot of work just for easier plug changes.
If you bypass the throttle body coolant lines, and don't put half the brackets back on under the throttle body when putting it back together, you can get that throttle body off and do plug changed pretty quick. If you fight that lower coolant hose on the front of the throttle body every time, you will be spending an extra 10 minutes getting it off and even longer getting that snap ring back on.
Last edited by Ali SC3; 12-08-12 at 09:18 AM.
12-19-12, 04:16 PM
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Great response, thank you for the input. Ive been thinking about doing a rear mount turbo more and more lately so the stock setup would be easier at the end of the day.
Just comes down to money now..
Just comes down to money now..
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12-20-12, 08:13 AM
#8
with the amount of available cheap turbo headers floating around that are actually of decent quality, I wouldn't bother with the hassle of a remote setup unless we were talking about an sc400, which they don't make turbo headers for. you will end up spending more on a remote setup, especially since you will need an oil pump system for the return.
12-21-12, 07:46 PM
#9
Prove it. You obviously think you're reinventing the wheel because you read up on how to throw some electrical components together and run logic level coils and are gonna make magic. So prove it. You're not pioneering anything, so stop acting like you are.
12-22-12, 05:57 AM
#11
My comments were directed more along the lines of you saying you "will make" etc. And the way you worded your setup like you're pioneering stuff. You're not. That simple.
I understand the setup will run. If we're gonna talk about the stuff, Ali pretty much covered it with all the acis stuff or whatever. Toyota has been doing it. It was on the supra 7mge, where as the 7mgte got a shorter runner plenum as did the Cressida 7mge. My comments were directed towards your arrogance and lofty expectations of your engine in n/a form. So put your hunk on the dyno and prove it.
I understand the setup will run. If we're gonna talk about the stuff, Ali pretty much covered it with all the acis stuff or whatever. Toyota has been doing it. It was on the supra 7mge, where as the 7mgte got a shorter runner plenum as did the Cressida 7mge. My comments were directed towards your arrogance and lofty expectations of your engine in n/a form. So put your hunk on the dyno and prove it.
12-22-12, 07:10 AM
#13
I guess making diagrams, and pinouts, and offer free information based on experience, and generally make this forum a more technically rich place that it's members can be proud of is "Arrogant" My mistake.
Since it's against the forum rules to post links, let me do this:
"Dyno Tuning
Rennen Performance is proud to offer dyno tuning using our industry leading DynoJet 224x 2wd dyno.
Whether you’re just looking to see what kind of numbers your car produces, or need extensive dyno-tuning, we have the equipment and experience to help you out.
Rennen Performance is proud to offer dyno tuning using our industry leading DynoJet 224x 2wd dyno.
Whether you’re just looking to see what kind of numbers your car produces, or need extensive dyno-tuning, we have the equipment and experience to help you out.
Oh, I only get 91 octane too, this might as well be called impossible!
Point: Always get a FFIM, just the time saved on plug changes alone makes it worth it.
You stay classy, Club Lexus!
12-22-12, 07:42 AM
#14
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I understand changing plugs on boosted application but when u are really na, I mean na how often do you can your plugs.
My gs300 has 261k miles on it and I only had to change the plugs once. Just saying
My gs300 has 261k miles on it and I only had to change the plugs once. Just saying
12-23-12, 09:16 AM
#15
Yeah I have only ever done it once on my na sc3's, the first time around I just drop in some Iridiums and never had to do anything again.
Installing the FFIM is also not the most fun intall in the world, a lot of things have to be modified for it to work and on an n/a i dont think its worth it since it takes alot to put back to stock.
Installing the FFIM is also not the most fun intall in the world, a lot of things have to be modified for it to work and on an n/a i dont think its worth it since it takes alot to put back to stock.