What's the skinny on NA-T with totally stock fuel/control?
12-15-11, 05:23 AM
#16
I know you don't want to spend any money, but you could buy a used Megasquirt for dirt cheap(or build one) and have a full standalone for between $200-$300. Then you can safely push your stock fuel to its limit, which I think is around 340-360rwhp.
12-15-11, 10:58 AM
#18
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I have had VAFCs, emanage ultimates, map ecus, AEM EMSes, and more. I've done it all lol. Who said I don't want to spend any money? I am just asking questions here people.
Anyway, standalone is NOT the best way. The best way (if you're not going for more than 400-500hp) is clearly a GTE ecu swap with the properly matched injectors. That is a plug and play and go affair vs having to spend hours getting a custom tune on an EMS.
Anyway, standalone is NOT the best way. The best way (if you're not going for more than 400-500hp) is clearly a GTE ecu swap with the properly matched injectors. That is a plug and play and go affair vs having to spend hours getting a custom tune on an EMS.
12-15-11, 12:29 PM
#19
That's true if you are not comfortable tuning and want to spend the money on all the USDM fuel components. It is something I am considering myself actually. The JDM fuel is not that great unless you just want around 360-380whp. USDM fuel is good for about 100whp more. If you know ~480whp is your limit, go for it I say.
The best, CHEAPEST way to maximize stock GE fuel is with an affordable standalone that can take advantage of every last bit the stock fuel system can give without blowing the motor due to lack of timing control. That is where a MS comes in.
Or, you can boost a totally stock fuel system and see what happens. I kinda hope you try it and see, because I think we are all curious about the limit there too
The best, CHEAPEST way to maximize stock GE fuel is with an affordable standalone that can take advantage of every last bit the stock fuel system can give without blowing the motor due to lack of timing control. That is where a MS comes in.
Or, you can boost a totally stock fuel system and see what happens. I kinda hope you try it and see, because I think we are all curious about the limit there too
12-15-11, 12:34 PM
#20
You also have to remember that the NA ecu is going to "see" the extra air from the turbo. And then, it is going to proceed to fuel it for the targeted AFR of about 13:1 or higher under full load. This will not end well on a boosted application, obviously.
12-15-11, 02:15 PM
#21
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lol
12-15-11, 02:28 PM
#22
I think I was still in the 11:0 afr at 11 psi on the stock fuel system with an afc. definately didnt run out of fuel but I think it was pretty close.
at wot it goes into open loop so it wont tune to 13:1, but on your way to full throttle if you hit boost it will home into 13 and sometimes its fine and sometimes it isnt. if you do that while going up a hill, it can cause severe knock and even detonation.
If you want the simplest setup, just get an adjustable FPR, then it doesnt mess with the timing at all.
just drop in a beefier pump
at wot it goes into open loop so it wont tune to 13:1, but on your way to full throttle if you hit boost it will home into 13 and sometimes its fine and sometimes it isnt. if you do that while going up a hill, it can cause severe knock and even detonation.
If you want the simplest setup, just get an adjustable FPR, then it doesnt mess with the timing at all.
just drop in a beefier pump
12-15-11, 02:33 PM
#23
Interesting. I knew WOT would go open loop, but I have never seen a NA car target super rich AFRs like that with open loop tables. In that case, maybe you can just use a mild ratio FMU like a 4:1 and just let the fuel pressure take care of business.
12-15-11, 04:54 PM
#24
simply put , would be a fast ticking timebomb..
ge ecu as you stated has zero ref for positive pressure.. retarding base timing to offset upper rpm timing will get you a poor idling and cruising car with super hot egt when you dont want it .. stock injectors is no go,, fic , safc the whole alphabet soup thing is old school thinking , for ge to perform and drive like stock standalone is the only way .. been there done that
ge ecu as you stated has zero ref for positive pressure.. retarding base timing to offset upper rpm timing will get you a poor idling and cruising car with super hot egt when you dont want it .. stock injectors is no go,, fic , safc the whole alphabet soup thing is old school thinking , for ge to perform and drive like stock standalone is the only way .. been there done that
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12-15-11, 05:45 PM
#25
2jz ecu wether it be ge or gte ecu are funky ecu whereas a gte ecu tends to be abit more forgiving but know this using a gte ecu in a na setup and larger injectors doesnt work well for long .. ge ecu even worse.. it pulls timing and advances timing at the wrong points during spool .. i have personally watched what stock timing wants to do via a scantool and it aint pretty..
if you want a properly and safely running 2jz a standalone IS the only viable option regardless of hp desires
if you want a properly and safely running 2jz a standalone IS the only viable option regardless of hp desires
12-16-11, 06:12 AM
#27
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Ed using the gte ecu on na-t setup i just like the having a single turbo MK4 with 650cc injectors , IMHO alot mk4 supra guys are still on the stock ecu and making decent power.I will only use the gte ecu up to 550rwhp anything after is is Pushing it.
The gte ecu should work fine for his application no standalone will be needed that power goal.
If i was looking for 500-550rwhp i would had done the tt ecu setup on my na-t it works great if you are on the budget and wanna stay under 500rwhp.
I don't know why alot of the guys on here like to waste their time on safc crap , when you can get a nice setup using the tt or aristo ecu and not having to worry about your car stalling on you when get in boost.
it has been proven that it's a nice, cheap and realiable setup.
Don't get me wrong ems is the easiest way to make good reliable power and i love mine , alot of other benefits.
The gte ecu should work fine for his application no standalone will be needed that power goal.
If i was looking for 500-550rwhp i would had done the tt ecu setup on my na-t it works great if you are on the budget and wanna stay under 500rwhp.
I don't know why alot of the guys on here like to waste their time on safc crap , when you can get a nice setup using the tt or aristo ecu and not having to worry about your car stalling on you when get in boost.
it has been proven that it's a nice, cheap and realiable setup.
Don't get me wrong ems is the easiest way to make good reliable power and i love mine , alot of other benefits.
12-25-11, 10:24 PM
#28
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I'm glad you started this topic. I am considering a NA-T with stock injectors and no tuning ability just to get it done and see how it goes. I've got a spare low mileage GE engine ready in case things go wrong. When I dynoed my car bone stock the AFR was 10.8:1. I was going to probably at least put a fuel pump in and see how things look around 6PSI. Keep us updated on what you decide to do.
12-26-11, 05:04 AM
#29
problem here guys is , fuel is just a part of the equation .. some think just because a/f look fat at wot that alls good .. but yet have no idea whats going on with timing .. you can actually run a/f into the mid 12's to 13.0 and still be safe to a point .. timing and too much of it at peak trq is what will kill a jz motor fast.. ge ecu is relying soley on knock sensors as well as gte ecu however gte ecu has some look up maps for timing control in positive pressure whereas ge has zero.. only problem i see and have experienced with gte ecu's is that timing maps are setup for twins hence the ever so present lean spots where its retarding and advancing timing at the points where the twins would be spooling ..the transition to boost is not smooth and most of the time people exp hesitations or studdering while making wot pulls ... adding a safc just compounds the issues .. i have personally seen this occur on many gte cars down here and many have gone to standalones because of it ..
imo , how much power one is making has little to do with utilizing a standalone .. to me it comes down to how efficient one wants there setup to run
imo , how much power one is making has little to do with utilizing a standalone .. to me it comes down to how efficient one wants there setup to run
12-26-11, 05:03 PM
#30
I'm glad you started this topic. I am considering a NA-T with stock injectors and no tuning ability just to get it done and see how it goes. I've got a spare low mileage GE engine ready in case things go wrong. When I dynoed my car bone stock the AFR was 10.8:1. I was going to probably at least put a fuel pump in and see how things look around 6PSI. Keep us updated on what you decide to do.
I still find myself downshifting immediately after a good boost, which is what I used to have to do with the stock ecu to keep it from stalling (It wont stall in gear no matter how rich it runs).
The afr is the lesser of two evils, with good gas you have alot of allowance.
With timing, not so much.
Its not worth it a GTE ecu takes like 2 hours to install and relatively inexpensive compared to other solutions.