Stroker Kit..
04-18-02, 09:29 AM
#31
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There is a lot of time involved in labor, all toll the $$$$ keep adding up. I would think today since more parts are available some of the cost can be shaved, but be sure before you allow your Lexus to be torn apart everything can be done within your budget.
Remember my costs also include new crank, pistons, complete new exhaust, Torq convetor, cam work, ECU upgrade ++++, and Labor
Projects like these always grow once started, can some one bore and sell you a set of pistons for XXXX, yes but then what. An aluminum motor is very different to work with successfully, make sure who ever does the work has aluminum experience as installing new sleeves and making the survive punishment is very important.
I choose to use someone who has 25-30 years experience building race motors and racing himself. I was buying expertise that I did not have, could it been done cheaper probably, but after two years of putting a smile on my face every time it starts up runs smoothly and then performs, I am ok with the cost.
Bottomline, want best bank for the buck, go to the lexus inline six, there are proven parts and performance way beyond the current capability of the Lexus V8. For what you would spend on a Lexus V8, you would probably get 1.5 to 2 HP per dollar spent on the in line six. Just ask what the Supra guys what $5,000 will get in HP or what $10,000 will get.
The only way to make economical HP in the Lexus V8 is to turbo or supercharge it. And for us SC400 owners the basic problem of room is the first problem, and then some one to get smog approved.
No one wants more power than me, maybe a swap to a Z06 crate motor???? is in the future
Remember my costs also include new crank, pistons, complete new exhaust, Torq convetor, cam work, ECU upgrade ++++, and Labor
Projects like these always grow once started, can some one bore and sell you a set of pistons for XXXX, yes but then what. An aluminum motor is very different to work with successfully, make sure who ever does the work has aluminum experience as installing new sleeves and making the survive punishment is very important.
I choose to use someone who has 25-30 years experience building race motors and racing himself. I was buying expertise that I did not have, could it been done cheaper probably, but after two years of putting a smile on my face every time it starts up runs smoothly and then performs, I am ok with the cost.
Bottomline, want best bank for the buck, go to the lexus inline six, there are proven parts and performance way beyond the current capability of the Lexus V8. For what you would spend on a Lexus V8, you would probably get 1.5 to 2 HP per dollar spent on the in line six. Just ask what the Supra guys what $5,000 will get in HP or what $10,000 will get.
The only way to make economical HP in the Lexus V8 is to turbo or supercharge it. And for us SC400 owners the basic problem of room is the first problem, and then some one to get smog approved.
No one wants more power than me, maybe a swap to a Z06 crate motor???? is in the future
04-21-02, 10:20 PM
#36
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ECU
the ECU dosent know what compression your running, but does know when it is detonating, higher compression = detonation.
as for stroke the ECU doesnt know what stroke your running, but does know that there is more AIR being sucked and spit out.
engines run off Vacume, more stroke means more air being sucked in.
am i right? correct me if im wrong.
as for stroke the ECU doesnt know what stroke your running, but does know that there is more AIR being sucked and spit out.
engines run off Vacume, more stroke means more air being sucked in.
am i right? correct me if im wrong.
04-22-02, 06:51 AM
#37
more stroke OR more bore means more air is being sucked in
and higher compression does not equal detonation; TOO much compression without sufficient octane or other preventetive measures equals detonation...
if you V8 guys could get some high duration and lift cams set up you guys could run some really high compression #s like the pushrod V8 guys do on pump gas
and higher compression does not equal detonation; TOO much compression without sufficient octane or other preventetive measures equals detonation...
if you V8 guys could get some high duration and lift cams set up you guys could run some really high compression #s like the pushrod V8 guys do on pump gas
04-22-02, 06:11 PM
#38
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detonation
doesnt always equal detonation, but if your runnin 12:1 your more than likley be detonating on pump gas.
thats why the engine has a knock senser, it senses knoking, pinging, detonation (whatever you want to call it) and retards the timming to avoid engine falure.
but higher lift and longer duration would benifit almost any engine, but once again you have idling issues and ecu adjustments
PS i know you dont want to hear this, but thats why hondas can produce so much HP in a naurally asperated engines and still pass smog. you can run the WILDEST cam you want, and your idle and smog wont change, the change will occur when the VTEC kicks on and changes to the second cam lob.
it will effect smog when the vtec kicks on, but the smog test doesnt go up too 4800 rpm's, vtec kicks in from 4800-5200 depending on model of engine, some higher some lower.
thats why the engine has a knock senser, it senses knoking, pinging, detonation (whatever you want to call it) and retards the timming to avoid engine falure.
but higher lift and longer duration would benifit almost any engine, but once again you have idling issues and ecu adjustments
PS i know you dont want to hear this, but thats why hondas can produce so much HP in a naurally asperated engines and still pass smog. you can run the WILDEST cam you want, and your idle and smog wont change, the change will occur when the VTEC kicks on and changes to the second cam lob.
it will effect smog when the vtec kicks on, but the smog test doesnt go up too 4800 rpm's, vtec kicks in from 4800-5200 depending on model of engine, some higher some lower.
05-13-03, 11:13 AM
#39
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PAECO
Hanging out on the MG newsgroup, I've heard several negative comments about paeco. They boil down to high prices and shoddy work.
I had a header leak welded by them and they didn't do a very good job.
From my perspective as a MG owner, their prices were 'way high.
I had a header leak welded by them and they didn't do a very good job.
From my perspective as a MG owner, their prices were 'way high.
05-14-03, 12:47 PM
#40
Just talked to them.
They won't make 5.0L from a 4.0L engine
4.8L is the largest they would recommend.
includes pistions, rings, and crank(you have to send yours in)
any configuration you want will be $2200.
They will build a full custom spec engine to your liking for $8400 which would include
all the machining, pistons, rings, rods, valves, all new cams, port, polish, parts, labor, etc etc etc.
if anyone is going to spend $8400 I think one should make it 4.8L with outrageous compression (like 13.0:1?) and forget about forced induction and pray that it don't blow.
they recommended that the storke does not increase over .25" .25" is safe from what they say.
The things is they don't know what the engine is like so they don't know what will work and what will not.
The price is basically for what you ask them to do.
the c's kit is 92x92 stroke and bore with 11.2:1 @ 5000cc displacement creating 330ps of power...
couldn't quite read the torque number.
another thing about C's 5.0L stroker is that the engine is listed as being a 2UZ-FE but the picture is that of a LS400. any comments?
If we can get a complete specs and list of C's kit then we can just order it from PAECO for $2200.
not the specs but the parts list looks similar to the C's kit.
Here are the equestions that need answering
in percentage terms. How much larger bore can we go before having to machine the block? 5% 10%????
so in sum what would displacement be after increasing 1/4" stroke and 10% bore?
how does that translate to power gain?
does increasing stroke without increasing bore make any sense?
They won't make 5.0L from a 4.0L engine
4.8L is the largest they would recommend.
includes pistions, rings, and crank(you have to send yours in)
any configuration you want will be $2200.
They will build a full custom spec engine to your liking for $8400 which would include
all the machining, pistons, rings, rods, valves, all new cams, port, polish, parts, labor, etc etc etc.
if anyone is going to spend $8400 I think one should make it 4.8L with outrageous compression (like 13.0:1?) and forget about forced induction and pray that it don't blow.
they recommended that the storke does not increase over .25" .25" is safe from what they say.
The things is they don't know what the engine is like so they don't know what will work and what will not.
The price is basically for what you ask them to do.
the c's kit is 92x92 stroke and bore with 11.2:1 @ 5000cc displacement creating 330ps of power...
couldn't quite read the torque number.
another thing about C's 5.0L stroker is that the engine is listed as being a 2UZ-FE but the picture is that of a LS400. any comments?
If we can get a complete specs and list of C's kit then we can just order it from PAECO for $2200.
not the specs but the parts list looks similar to the C's kit.
Here are the equestions that need answering
in percentage terms. How much larger bore can we go before having to machine the block? 5% 10%????
so in sum what would displacement be after increasing 1/4" stroke and 10% bore?
how does that translate to power gain?
does increasing stroke without increasing bore make any sense?
10-19-04, 11:07 AM
#42
Zombie Slayer
Re: bore and stroke
Originally posted by Chairmnofthbord
whats the bore and stroke on the Tundra ans the SC400, that will tell you excactly what your getting.
its simple,
stroke=lowend torque
bore=hp
the larger your stroke the more torque you get, but you cant rev as high.
the shorter the stroke the higher you can rev, but you loose lowend torque
torque engines wont rev, rev engine wont produse torque.
HP is the easiest to produce, REV & Torque have to do with the design of the engine.
thats why hondas rev to 8000 rpm stock, but produce very lil torque, and bigblocks wont rev but produce lowend grunt.
so wat im saying is, to make more power you need to see what is optimal for your engine. Your not going to try to make a Big Block rev to 9000, and you are not going to try to make 600 lb ft of torque with a 1.6, just not going to happen.
With eather you can make 400 HP, but its up to the engine how it will get there.
exsample.
porsche boxter makes 250 hp via torque
honda s2000 makes 240 hp via rev
HP almost the same
Remember just because it feels fast, doesnt mean it is. torque motors always FEEL fast, but die on the top end. our cars dont feel fast, but come topend and we are flying without feeling it.
im gonna guess (just a guess) that the sc4 engine has a larger bore than stroke.
damn im rambling on. in short, we need to find what makes these motors fast, might be boring, might be stroking, might be head and cams, i can give you personal exsamples, but i dont want to boar you anymore
whats the bore and stroke on the Tundra ans the SC400, that will tell you excactly what your getting.
its simple,
stroke=lowend torque
bore=hp
the larger your stroke the more torque you get, but you cant rev as high.
the shorter the stroke the higher you can rev, but you loose lowend torque
torque engines wont rev, rev engine wont produse torque.
HP is the easiest to produce, REV & Torque have to do with the design of the engine.
thats why hondas rev to 8000 rpm stock, but produce very lil torque, and bigblocks wont rev but produce lowend grunt.
so wat im saying is, to make more power you need to see what is optimal for your engine. Your not going to try to make a Big Block rev to 9000, and you are not going to try to make 600 lb ft of torque with a 1.6, just not going to happen.
With eather you can make 400 HP, but its up to the engine how it will get there.
exsample.
porsche boxter makes 250 hp via torque
honda s2000 makes 240 hp via rev
HP almost the same
Remember just because it feels fast, doesnt mean it is. torque motors always FEEL fast, but die on the top end. our cars dont feel fast, but come topend and we are flying without feeling it.
im gonna guess (just a guess) that the sc4 engine has a larger bore than stroke.
damn im rambling on. in short, we need to find what makes these motors fast, might be boring, might be stroking, might be head and cams, i can give you personal exsamples, but i dont want to boar you anymore
Don't know where you came up with this logic, but no way!!! I know of quite a few big blocks that can scream all the way up to 8k, 9k, & even 10k rpm. Torque and HP have no direct correlation to displacement in the way you're saying. The reason the Honda (& for conversation sake, lets say all NA 4 cyl.) rev so high is that due to the lack of displacement, they need to reach this high RPM in order to see larger HP numbers. This is where the power band of those engines lie.
There are no examples of a "torque engine" or "rev engine".
You are kinda in right arena with the design of the engine dictating what your results are, but it's much more complicated than simply stating "stroke=lowend torque bore=hp". Using the example of a Chevy pushrod V8, stroking the engine from say 350ci to 383ci can result in a greater percentage increase of HP to torque. Factors can include, weight of crank, Compression ratio, Valve size, CFM flow through intake and heads. See, a lot of factors come into play.
Just my .02
10-20-04, 11:14 AM
#45
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Re: Re: bore and stroke
Originally posted by mkorsu
Don't know where you came up with this logic, but no way!!! I know of quite a few big blocks that can scream all the way up to 8k, 9k, & even 10k rpm. Torque and HP have no direct correlation to displacement in the way you're saying. The reason the Honda (& for conversation sake, lets say all NA 4 cyl.) rev so high is that due to the lack of displacement, they need to reach this high RPM in order to see larger HP numbers. This is where the power band of those engines lie.
There are no examples of a "torque engine" or "rev engine".
You are kinda in right arena with the design of the engine dictating what your results are, but it's much more complicated than simply stating "stroke=lowend torque bore=hp". Using the example of a Chevy pushrod V8, stroking the engine from say 350ci to 383ci can result in a greater percentage increase of HP to torque. Factors can include, weight of crank, Compression ratio, Valve size, CFM flow through intake and heads. See, a lot of factors come into play.
Just my .02
Don't know where you came up with this logic, but no way!!! I know of quite a few big blocks that can scream all the way up to 8k, 9k, & even 10k rpm. Torque and HP have no direct correlation to displacement in the way you're saying. The reason the Honda (& for conversation sake, lets say all NA 4 cyl.) rev so high is that due to the lack of displacement, they need to reach this high RPM in order to see larger HP numbers. This is where the power band of those engines lie.
There are no examples of a "torque engine" or "rev engine".
You are kinda in right arena with the design of the engine dictating what your results are, but it's much more complicated than simply stating "stroke=lowend torque bore=hp". Using the example of a Chevy pushrod V8, stroking the engine from say 350ci to 383ci can result in a greater percentage increase of HP to torque. Factors can include, weight of crank, Compression ratio, Valve size, CFM flow through intake and heads. See, a lot of factors come into play.
Just my .02
Chairmnofthbord is arguing theory with factual numbers. Bad idea, there are many examples of either case.
Key points to power:
Mass air flow rate, not displacement. A wonderfull example is a wankle engine. Measuring a motor by its' displacement is very flawed. Dont argue this point I'm right.
This is directly related to the next key point.Volumetric Eff., or V.E.: A high VE will produce torque, maintaining this VE will produce HP through the powerband. The longer you can maintain the VE more HP you'll make.
Thermal Eff: This allows the motor to get the most from the combustion process. The more energy released the more cylinder pressure that is created, yada yada yada.
Ultimately bore or stroke have only a tiny piece of the power band and it's shape. However, they can and should be concidered when designing a motor, but tons of other conciderations will effect this, that have already been mentioned above.
FYI, most honda engines are stroker engines, or aleast the ones I have read about, as well as BMW, both high reving motors. The only thing you need to keep a close eye on is piston speeds. Integra Type-R's have piston speeds that come near some F1 cars, yet revs only half of what a F1 typically does. You do the math.