I need to make a decission; Best option for my bottom end
01-12-09, 09:48 AM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
I need to make a decission; Best option for my bottom end
I'm going boosted with GT35R for now, Aem EMS is gonna run the show. But since i have a 98, I'm blessed with the damned VVti engine which has a ***** bottom end from my research. Now, I don't wanna go through all this trouble and spend all that money to only boost 10-15 psi, plus i wanna have a fail-safe or bullet proof engine. I decided to change my bottom end and i have options:
1) get the mighty Toyota short block, 2400 plus shipping, good for 800-900whp
2)Get a GE block, Eagle or Carrillos rods, JE or Wiseco pistons, ACL bearings,2400 bucks, good for God knows what. But machine work is going to be the risky side of the option!!! How much u guys think the shop would charge for balancing, honing and boring, what else is needed?
Now, what option would you go with? i don't think i can go over 900 mark, but i wanna have room to move in case if i get the "BUG" I also wanna do it once annd not have to do it again...
1) get the mighty Toyota short block, 2400 plus shipping, good for 800-900whp
2)Get a GE block, Eagle or Carrillos rods, JE or Wiseco pistons, ACL bearings,2400 bucks, good for God knows what. But machine work is going to be the risky side of the option!!! How much u guys think the shop would charge for balancing, honing and boring, what else is needed?
Now, what option would you go with? i don't think i can go over 900 mark, but i wanna have room to move in case if i get the "BUG" I also wanna do it once annd not have to do it again...
01-12-09, 10:27 AM
#2
the ge and gte bottom ends, prior to vvti, are identical other then oil squireters and turbo feed/return ports for oil and water.
if youre shooting for 900hp i would build a bottom end. stock wont hold up.
heres a recent thread from SF talking about this same topic and stock rods:
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=522053
i posted in that thread under username: Pebbles
machine work is not going to be that much. are you going to assemble it yourself spend money on that too. with the machine work and assembly you will easily spend 1000 just for that.
i would go with a set of carillo or crawer rods and a some mahle pistons if you can get them. wiseco is okay. je is almost same as wiseco. actually i think at this point in time JE actually owns wiseco. mahle is the biggest piston manufacturer in the world and most "tuners" outsource to them. their technology is second to none and heat expansion issue are minimum. since they dont expand as much as JE and wiseco you can run tighter tolerance too
good luck with the build.
if youre shooting for 900hp i would build a bottom end. stock wont hold up.
heres a recent thread from SF talking about this same topic and stock rods:
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=522053
i posted in that thread under username: Pebbles
machine work is not going to be that much. are you going to assemble it yourself spend money on that too. with the machine work and assembly you will easily spend 1000 just for that.
i would go with a set of carillo or crawer rods and a some mahle pistons if you can get them. wiseco is okay. je is almost same as wiseco. actually i think at this point in time JE actually owns wiseco. mahle is the biggest piston manufacturer in the world and most "tuners" outsource to them. their technology is second to none and heat expansion issue are minimum. since they dont expand as much as JE and wiseco you can run tighter tolerance too
good luck with the build.
01-12-09, 03:16 PM
#3
Instructor
Thread Starter
the ge and gte bottom ends, prior to vvti, are identical other then oil squireters and turbo feed/return ports for oil and water.
if youre shooting for 900hp i would build a bottom end. stock wont hold up.
heres a recent thread from SF talking about this same topic and stock rods:
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=522053
i posted in that thread under username: Pebbles
machine work is not going to be that much. are you going to assemble it yourself spend money on that too. with the machine work and assembly you will easily spend 1000 just for that.
i would go with a set of carillo or crawer rods and a some mahle pistons if you can get them. wiseco is okay. je is almost same as wiseco. actually i think at this point in time JE actually owns wiseco. mahle is the biggest piston manufacturer in the world and most "tuners" outsource to them. their technology is second to none and heat expansion issue are minimum. since they dont expand as much as JE and wiseco you can run tighter tolerance too
good luck with the build.
if youre shooting for 900hp i would build a bottom end. stock wont hold up.
heres a recent thread from SF talking about this same topic and stock rods:
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=522053
i posted in that thread under username: Pebbles
machine work is not going to be that much. are you going to assemble it yourself spend money on that too. with the machine work and assembly you will easily spend 1000 just for that.
i would go with a set of carillo or crawer rods and a some mahle pistons if you can get them. wiseco is okay. je is almost same as wiseco. actually i think at this point in time JE actually owns wiseco. mahle is the biggest piston manufacturer in the world and most "tuners" outsource to them. their technology is second to none and heat expansion issue are minimum. since they dont expand as much as JE and wiseco you can run tighter tolerance too
good luck with the build.
I saw that thread on SF <i'm a member there too> the nitrous shot is questionable though. I see your point, i'm sorta leaning away from the stock block. 900 whp is not very streetable, plus the boost comes on very late the car wouldn't be lovable< unless all u do is highway runs in excess of 120 MPH> ... I'm assymbling the engine myself, not very hard if i follow procedure and tq numbers. My fear lies in the machine shop and how much they'll charge me
01-12-09, 06:10 PM
#4
Sup Max.
First off don't worry about hitting anywhere near 9 to the wheels with a 35R unless you do some serious, serious work to the rest of the motor and are shooting one hell of a shot with spray. Even if you did that turbo will be way past efficiency range.
Second, don't count the VVTI as a cripple, there are mountains to be utilized with that head technology, it's the next step that will start popping up more in the near future. Yes the bottom end neads work but don't shy away from gettin the most out of that VVTI.
Before you go swapping blocks, make sure you know exactly how you're configuring your compression ratio and what it comes out to in the end. The dish of your pistons, the thickness of your HG, any several other things come into play when doing something like this, just keep it fresh in your mind. IT will have an afffect on detonation, spool, alot of things really.
Something you need to do some more research on is the block situation and make your own choice, here's why; the GE block is actually stronger overall than the GTE block because of the oil passages/squirters. Alot of people when shooting for 1000+ use the GE block for that specific reason. Now since you're realisticly going to be around half that number it's not a huge deal and the oil squirters might actually be beneficial in your case for longevity purposes. But you said you wanted a bulletproof block, decision is up to you.
Personally, what I would do in your case, is be patient and find an older SC motor that is blown or weak for like 200 or less. Break it down and rebuild it with stock GTE internals. You'll spend less and get a good solid base. Go to town.
First off don't worry about hitting anywhere near 9 to the wheels with a 35R unless you do some serious, serious work to the rest of the motor and are shooting one hell of a shot with spray. Even if you did that turbo will be way past efficiency range.
Second, don't count the VVTI as a cripple, there are mountains to be utilized with that head technology, it's the next step that will start popping up more in the near future. Yes the bottom end neads work but don't shy away from gettin the most out of that VVTI.
Before you go swapping blocks, make sure you know exactly how you're configuring your compression ratio and what it comes out to in the end. The dish of your pistons, the thickness of your HG, any several other things come into play when doing something like this, just keep it fresh in your mind. IT will have an afffect on detonation, spool, alot of things really.
Something you need to do some more research on is the block situation and make your own choice, here's why; the GE block is actually stronger overall than the GTE block because of the oil passages/squirters. Alot of people when shooting for 1000+ use the GE block for that specific reason. Now since you're realisticly going to be around half that number it's not a huge deal and the oil squirters might actually be beneficial in your case for longevity purposes. But you said you wanted a bulletproof block, decision is up to you.
Personally, what I would do in your case, is be patient and find an older SC motor that is blown or weak for like 200 or less. Break it down and rebuild it with stock GTE internals. You'll spend less and get a good solid base. Go to town.
01-12-09, 08:24 PM
#5
Instructor
Thread Starter
Sup Max.
First off don't worry about hitting anywhere near 9 to the wheels with a 35R unless you do some serious, serious work to the rest of the motor and are shooting one hell of a shot with spray. Even if you did that turbo will be way past efficiency range.
Second, don't count the VVTI as a cripple, there are mountains to be utilized with that head technology, it's the next step that will start popping up more in the near future. Yes the bottom end neads work but don't shy away from gettin the most out of that VVTI.
Before you go swapping blocks, make sure you know exactly how you're configuring your compression ratio and what it comes out to in the end. The dish of your pistons, the thickness of your HG, any several other things come into play when doing something like this, just keep it fresh in your mind. IT will have an afffect on detonation, spool, alot of things really.
Something you need to do some more research on is the block situation and make your own choice, here's why; the GE block is actually stronger overall than the GTE block because of the oil passages/squirters. Alot of people when shooting for 1000+ use the GE block for that specific reason. Now since you're realisticly going to be around half that number it's not a huge deal and the oil squirters might actually be beneficial in your case for longevity purposes. But you said you wanted a bulletproof block, decision is up to you.
Personally, what I would do in your case, is be patient and find an older SC motor that is blown or weak for like 200 or less. Break it down and rebuild it with stock GTE internals. You'll spend less and get a good solid base. Go to town.
First off don't worry about hitting anywhere near 9 to the wheels with a 35R unless you do some serious, serious work to the rest of the motor and are shooting one hell of a shot with spray. Even if you did that turbo will be way past efficiency range.
Second, don't count the VVTI as a cripple, there are mountains to be utilized with that head technology, it's the next step that will start popping up more in the near future. Yes the bottom end neads work but don't shy away from gettin the most out of that VVTI.
Before you go swapping blocks, make sure you know exactly how you're configuring your compression ratio and what it comes out to in the end. The dish of your pistons, the thickness of your HG, any several other things come into play when doing something like this, just keep it fresh in your mind. IT will have an afffect on detonation, spool, alot of things really.
Something you need to do some more research on is the block situation and make your own choice, here's why; the GE block is actually stronger overall than the GTE block because of the oil passages/squirters. Alot of people when shooting for 1000+ use the GE block for that specific reason. Now since you're realisticly going to be around half that number it's not a huge deal and the oil squirters might actually be beneficial in your case for longevity purposes. But you said you wanted a bulletproof block, decision is up to you.
Personally, what I would do in your case, is be patient and find an older SC motor that is blown or weak for like 200 or less. Break it down and rebuild it with stock GTE internals. You'll spend less and get a good solid base. Go to town.
Sup Jon, how u doing bro?
I totally agree with you on the VVTi issue, i don't have any issues with the head, my beef is with the stupid Pu ssy block. i also figure that my compression would be around 8.5:1 if i get gte internals and HG. And don't worry, i'm not trying to get anywhere near 900 with the 35R
However i intend to use nitrous on top of turbo< not before> for responsivness and streetability. Btw, what other parts do u refer to when talk about spraying? unless u talking about meth! Toyota shortblock is out of my list now, i figure i can build a block with the same cost 
... A new option now is to stick a non vvti block on there till i fully build one. what do u guys think???
01-12-09, 08:42 PM
#6
Good man I haven't touched my car in months, my focus now is on the 3.4L MKIV im building for a guy here in OKC. Should be fun to say the least. Anyway honestly with a 35R, you won't have a single issue with response.... that is a very responsive turbo for the 2jz, make sure you have a large A/R on the turbine side. Like at least high 80s/90s or better. Otherwise you run a very good risk of choking your top end, especially with the VVTI. Personally, I wouldn't stick NOS on it unless you're just dead set on it, especially with a 35R. Smaller turbos have higher intake temps relative to their psi vs. a larger turbo. The reason I am rebuilding this MKIV motor (then he said **** it lets go 3.4!) is that on stock twins he ran 100 wet shot and basically was running no boost control whatsoever, just letting them freespool to their max. When do you things like this, your temps are insane and the one that takes it the worst is the No. 6 and the No. 5 on these motors. When I pulled the block apart and took off the main caps for No. 6, the piston literally fell out of the block without even touching it. More than likely this was due to what I have just described. Point of story is I think NOS would be a waste for what your goals and the turbo you have chosen. If you want to focus on response, size your I/C and piping correctly, put your compression at 9:1 (no higher) and just give it a good tune. You'll reach w/e threshold you want by 4k max if you have that VVTI working like it should. Make sure you are invested in some good wheels/tires because the torque curve is going to be impressive if you get it tuned right with that turbo.
01-12-09, 09:05 PM
#7
Instructor
Thread Starter
I wish i had that kida money for a stroker lol BTW when i talked about bumping the power levels, i meant changing the turbo also, i'm not crazy to push the 35R that far hahahah i think i'm going the GE building route. it just chaps my *** that i can't bump the boost because the block is holding me at 400
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01-12-09, 09:13 PM
#8
I think building an early model GE with GTE internals is the way to go man. Brand new parts straight from toyota properly installed with correct tolerances are hard to beat, period. You'll spend a ton less than that other built block and it will take you probably as far as you want to go for awhile.
01-12-09, 09:17 PM
#9
Instructor
Thread Starter
I think building an early model GE with GTE internals is the way to go man. Brand new parts straight from toyota properly installed with correct tolerances are hard to beat, period. You'll spend a ton less than that other built block and it will take you probably as far as you want to go for awhile.
thnx for your help Jon, i think i'm decided now. How much do you think a machine shop would charge for block work?
01-12-09, 09:21 PM
#10
Depends, you want to assemble it or actual machining like line honing, decking etc? Assembling: Solely depends on the shop and how good they are, anywhere from 300 to 600+, just depends on what they want to charge. Actual machining maybe tack another 200-500+, kind of a hard question to answer because it's very subjective. Still less than that other block w/ brand new parts.
01-12-09, 10:05 PM
#13
Instructor
Thread Starter
i can tell you i've been on the search button since july, 2007 lol But it pays off.......
01-13-09, 06:55 AM
#14
I have heard both sides of the GE block scenario. I have read that there is not a single difference other than the squirters/passages in ALL GE blocks. Others have said that there is a difference when it switched to VVTI. Others have said it switched a couple years after VVTI. LexusFTW shed some light on this!