SAFC 2 discusion.
10-19-06, 09:22 PM
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SAFC 2 discusion.
Who here has had this for 1+ years and did anyone had any problems with it?
The reason I ask is becuase I find some extremely conflicting oppinions about it in the 2 forums I visit regularly, one being a private local 240sx forum, and the other being this one off course.
Im quoting this becuase I only want input from experienced users with SAFC installed on their cars, instead of linking the information. It is NOT my intent to start any type of interforum trolling or what not. I like both forums the same, im just searching for information from you guys as well.
Thanks in advance.
What is your oppinion of the SAFC 2? And are there better alternatives for our cars for the money?
The reason I ask is becuase I find some extremely conflicting oppinions about it in the 2 forums I visit regularly, one being a private local 240sx forum, and the other being this one off course.
Inabj2
post Oct 16 2006, 10:18 PM
Post #1
They seem to work well with SC300s and 400s at least while their na. I guess its true for any car that has an extremely conservative tune.
Either way, when can I pick this up? Thursday?
--------------------
Martin
post Oct 17 2006, 05:12 PM
Post #2
QUOTE(Inabj2 @ Oct 16 2006, 10:18 PM) *
They seem to work well with SC300s and 400s at least while their na. I guess its true for any car that has an extremely conservative tune.
Either way, when can I pick this up? Thursday?
They *seem* to work on all vehicles, regardless of conservativeness of tune.
They just don't ACTUALLY work.
--------------------
Inabj2
post Yesterday, 12:02 PM
Post #3
I see first Gen SC400s Dyno around 185-188 rwhp bone stock.
Then a SAFC and a Custom home made "BFI" Intake, theyre in the 205-208 rwhp. Well whatever.
Ill try to pick it up thursday if available.
--------------------
Martin
post Yesterday, 12:23 PM
Post #4
I didn't say it wouldn't make power.... mellow.gif
--------------------
[
Brad
post Yesterday, 04:03 PM
Post #5
QUOTE(Inabj2 @ Oct 18 2006, 12:02 PM) *
I see first Gen SC400s Dyno around 185-188 rwhp bone stock.
Then a SAFC and a Custom home made "BFI" Intake, theyre in the 205-208 rwhp. Well whatever.
Ill try to pick it up thursday if available.
i bet if those same people disconnected the safc, and bumped up their base timing a few degrees, they would get the same result. would be slower on the street though because their wallet would be $200 fatter though im sure
--------------------
Inabj2
post Today, 11:24 AM
Post #6
QUOTE(Brad @ Oct 18 2006, 04:03 PM) *
QUOTE(Inabj2 @ Oct 18 2006, 12:02 PM) *
I see first Gen SC400s Dyno around 185-188 rwhp bone stock.
Then a SAFC and a Custom home made "BFI" Intake, theyre in the 205-208 rwhp. Well whatever.
Ill try to pick it up thursday if available.
i bet if those same people disconnected the safc, and bumped up their base timing a few degrees, they would get the same result. would be slower on the street though because their wallet would be $200 fatter though im sure
Perhaps at the risk of pinging. Overall in the 3+ years I had my car it is known to be a worthwhile for the money mod.
SC's dont have the most effective tunes stock...
The main benefit for my car personally is I could gain more at bottom end since stock it tends to be cutting back before 4000 rpms. Its not a very linear torque curve. Having said that, I would definitively not use an SAFC to tune a modded boosted car...
This post has been edited by Inabj2: Today, 11:29 AM
--------------------
Kamin
post Today, 12:33 PM
Post #7
SAFC tricks the computer by changing airflow values right?
all your ignition mapping is based off your airflow the computer sees.
the safc is a waste of money.
--------------------
Ready, Aim, Pull the trigger NOW!
Group: Moderator
Posts: 6397
Joined: 13-June 03
From: Closer and closer
Member No.: 227
give it a shot.
if you engine blows up then "we told you so."
--------------------
CKAMC
post Today, 02:41 PM
Post #9
Speaking of SAFC... http://www.apexi-usa.com/product_ele......0&pageNum=1
another junk product? unsure.gif
--------------------
Kamin
post Today, 03:02 PM
Post #10
RB > SR
the principal behind the SAFC is junk (even the new one)
you cant just trick the computer to add more fuel. other things get changed and played with.
--------------------
AZhitman
post Today, 03:15 PM
Post #11
NicoDad
*SIgh*
Half the time, Juan is telling us what a "n00b" he is and that he has little to no mechanical aptitude...
...then, when the EXPERTS give sound advice, he knows better.
no.gif
SAFC = ****. Plain and simple.
Juan, you'd be better off bumping base timing, running Premium and getting an ECU reflash.
--------------------
Inabj2
post Today, 03:43 PM
Post #12
QUOTE(AZhitman @ Oct 19 2006, 03:15 PM) *
*SIgh*
Half the time, Juan is telling us what a "n00b" he is and that he has little to no mechanical aptitude...
...then, when the EXPERTS give sound advice, he knows better.
no.gif
SAFC = ****. Plain and simple.
Juan, you'd be better off bumping base timing, running Premium and getting an ECU reflash.
I run premium now, it IS REQUIRED! No one offers an ECU reflash for sc300 ecus. Im sure it could be done, but not in a manner thad be worth the money.
Theres no better alternative for stock SC300, theres no bikirom or etc for me to use instead, short of a full stand alone.
Either way its temporary thing I was going to try for my NA SC300, in no way shape or form was I going to install this in any type of boosted car. IF I do go boosted on the SC300, I wouldnt have anything less then a standalone or proper stock ecu before that.
This was something for me to use as meanwhile.
For some reason or another SC300 has always run rich, sometimes to the point where I can smell the gas when i hit wot, and off course the blackened exhaust tips.
Not sure how bumping base timing will resolve this problem?
--------------------
Toki
post Today, 03:43 PM
Post #13
If it's all you can afford, then use it. Don't you think if bumping the base timing was providing the same gains for them they would just be doing that?
I ran an s-afc for over a year, no problems what so ever. I also knew what my motor could handle, and knew the values on the stock timing map. I knew what I was changing the timing to and where....and it was great.
I dunno. That's just my take on it. Only use it if you know how it works, but thats kind of a general philosophy I have for everything.
--------------------
Inabj2
post Today, 03:48 PM
Post #14
Warn: (0%) -----
QUOTE(Toki @ Oct 19 2006, 03:43 PM) *
If it's all you can afford, then use it. Don't you think if bumping the base timing was providing the same gains for them they would just be doing that?
I ran an s-afc for over a year, no problems what so ever. I also knew what my motor could handle, and knew the values on the stock timing map. I knew what I was changing the timing to and where....and it was great.
I dunno. That's just my take on it. Only use it if you know how it works, but thats kind of a general philosophy I have for everything.
Its not all I can afford, at the moment, I guess I could go all out and buy a stand alone right now, only, itd be a waste of money for the little things I have done to the SC300. Its just something Id play with while I wait for my 240sx...
I should clarify that more then anything else itd be used in almost opposite way what most people have used it here on before. Rather then add fuel, I wonder if I need to take some out? Either way Id have it dyno tuned.
I know its worthless to use in highpower applications, I dont plan on using it on a high power vehicle at all.
This post has been edited by Inabj2: Today, 03:51 PM
--------------------
Brad
post Today, 03:49 PM
Post #15
Check your timing
Group: Original Gangsta
Posts: 12715
Joined: 16-November 02
From: ASU
Member No.: 64
but if you know how it works, then you shouldnt want to use it. theres no real way to change your timing or fuel, its just a crapshoot. the only viable way i could see it is by sitting on a dyno, making a pull, looking for dips in the A/F, then trying to adjust accordingly. but when you have to pull fuel out, it gets worse. the bigger the injectors, the worse it is
toki im guessing you have 370cc injectors? if thats the case then it will work way better for you than it did for people with 550s. pulling 33% fuel out across the board is a timing-**** of epic proportions, and thats BEFORE trying to make adjustments
--------------------
Toki
post Today, 04:03 PM
Post #16
460cc. my corrections were 22-27%
Tuned with a wideband, it was fine.
--------------------
CKAMC
post Today, 04:27 PM
Post #17
Greddy Ultimate? I am considering the unit for any car thats 96 and newer ....
Friend baught one for his 350z thats has the intake/intake mani/exhaust/headers/cams/test pipes and before install had 246whp and 232tq and after install got 257whp AND 242tq. I like it and easy to use.
--------------------
brian
post Today, 05:15 PM
Post #18
i've been reading emanage works pretty well. i plan on using one when i go turbo.
--------------------
AZhitman
post Today, 05:17 PM
Post #19
NicoDad
Juan, for what you're wanting the SAFC to do, you could buy a $10 "chip" off ebay.
--------------------
Inabj2
post Today, 07:01 PM
Post #20
QUOTE(AZhitman @ Oct 19 2006, 05:17 PM) *
Juan, for what you're wanting the SAFC to do, you could buy a $10 "chip" off ebay.
Greg, stop being a douche, seriously. Those chips are ussually straight through wires.
CKMAC People using the safc 2 had similar results with a later gen GS400.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...ghlight=SAFC+2
Personally I wouldnt use any type of piggyback if i were boosted.. but im not, and stock SC300s arent tuned terribly well, I just want a bit of gain here and there, while I wait for my next S13.
Somethings on this car works. Like cutting up the intake and rerouting it with what is known over there as "BFI intake". When I ran this car bone stock, it ran a horrid SOHC like time of 16.798@84ish mph, after tune up. Since then I did noting but very minor things and dropped the time 6 tenths of a second. to 16.216@87 mph. Still terrible slow, but I spent maybe 200 bucks on it overall to make that improvement. Im thinking I can get it in the high 15s, before I convert it to manual just by messing with it some more.
Nissans and Toyotas tune thing differently, my nissan did not seem absurdly rich whenever I hit wot like the SC300 always have been.
This post has been edited by Inabj2: Today, 07:09 PM
--------------------
Kamin
post Today, 07:16 PM
Post #21
RB > SR
do you have a wideband?
so you dont know for sure if its rich or not, right?
blind tuning is how bad things happen.
--------------------
Inabj2
post Today, 07:18 PM
Post #22
QUOTE(Kamin @ Oct 19 2006, 07:16 PM) *
do you have a wideband?
so you dont know for sure if its rich or not, right?
blind tuning is how bad things happen.
I dont plan to, thats why Ill have it dyno tuned.. its mostly just to keep me entertained while I wait type of deal...
--------------------
Martin
post Today, 08:16 PM
Post #23
/sarcasm
Juan's opinion: The SC300 feels rich when I'm WOT. Toyotas and Nissans tune totally differently. You guys just don't understand.
Rest of board's factual information: The SAFC is a terrible device that artificially manipulates your ECU. It will create gains in unsafe ways by altering your ECU's mapping and 'tricking' it into leaning out. The potential to get into an unsafe situation with this type of tuning is very very high.
My toyota tuning knowledge:
Juan, I *know* 5sfe's and 3sgte's have learning ECU's that will eventually compensate for the SAFC's tomfoolery, and erase any gains you get from them. They have an internal memory buffer that datalogs all of your inputs and adjusts the map based on the closed-loop O2 readings and whether you are WOT, how often you accelerate, etc etc. I can't picture a SC300's ECU being less advanced.
On MR2's, SAFC's can add power temporarily, but if you dyno test it after the ECU has adapted, (up to twenty driving cycles, I believe), as long as the SAFC adjustments are finer than the ECU's internal ability to compensate, it will be right back at the power level where it started. The fall-off in power is pretty gradual as the ECU slowly adapts, so most butt-dynos will miss it.
But...you know...it's your money. And it is a shiny box.
--------------------
Inabj2
post Today, 08:55 PM
Post #24
QUOTE(Martin @ Oct 19 2006, 08:16 PM) *
Juan's opinion: The SC300 feels rich when I'm WOT. Toyotas and Nissans tune totally differently. You guys just don't understand.
Rest of board's factual information: The SAFC is a terrible device that artificially manipulates your ECU. It will create gains in unsafe ways by altering your ECU's mapping and 'tricking' it into leaning out. The potential to get into an unsafe situation with this type of tuning is very very high.
My toyota tuning knowledge:
Juan, I *know* 5sfe's and 3sgte's have learning ECU's that will eventually compensate for the SAFC's tomfoolery, and erase any gains you get from them. They have an internal memory buffer that datalogs all of your inputs and adjusts the map based on the closed-loop O2 readings and whether you are WOT, how often you accelerate, etc etc. I can't picture a SC300's ECU being less advanced.
On MR2's, SAFC's can add power temporarily, but if you dyno test it after the ECU has adapted, (up to twenty driving cycles, I believe), as long as the SAFC adjustments are finer than the ECU's internal ability to compensate, it will be right back at the power level where it started. The fall-off in power is pretty gradual as the ECU slowly adapts, so most butt-dynos will miss it.
But...you know...it's your money. And it is a shiny box.
Yes I know about the ECU adapting to your driving conditions. Also why if you drive lawfully it is a good idea to reset it every so often and start fresh.
I figured that i should be able to reset the ecu just as before and use the settings I get from the dyno...
As for the rich part, I don't know when I can see the fuel gauge move slightly and smell it, something is not right. Also the darkened exhaust tips. It could be from the fuel pump I had to replace, I put in a 255lph walbro about 2 years ago. Not because I thought id be cool about it, but because the original fuel pump died on me. Replacement oem fuel pump was roughly about 300 dollars, vs 95.
I could try a Greddy E-manage, but at nearly 500 dollars, not sure its worth it. 1 year ago no one here would of said the SAFC is ****, who knows that a year from now you wont find out that the E-manage works the same way? Remember I dont plan to use this engine for more then 18 months.
Unless someone here offers me an better alternative solution other then "advance timing!" I guess I have no choice, to date I dont see anyone doing ecu reflashes for a SC300, certainly not for less then 200 bucks. If you see someone please let me know..
In the 3+ years that I had my SC, no SAFC user has reported a blown engine because of it. In fact it is not known as a pos, just as something that is not best suited to be used for high hp applications.
This post has been edited by Inabj2: Today, 08:57 PM
--------------------
AZ-ZBum
post Today, 08:56 PM
Post #25
QUOTE(Martin @ Oct 19 2006, 08:16 PM) *
But...you know...it's your money. And it is a shiny box.
And it's another line item on the mod list.
--------------------
post Oct 16 2006, 10:18 PM
Post #1
They seem to work well with SC300s and 400s at least while their na. I guess its true for any car that has an extremely conservative tune.
Either way, when can I pick this up? Thursday?
--------------------
Martin
post Oct 17 2006, 05:12 PM
Post #2
QUOTE(Inabj2 @ Oct 16 2006, 10:18 PM) *
They seem to work well with SC300s and 400s at least while their na. I guess its true for any car that has an extremely conservative tune.
Either way, when can I pick this up? Thursday?
They *seem* to work on all vehicles, regardless of conservativeness of tune.
They just don't ACTUALLY work.
--------------------
Inabj2
post Yesterday, 12:02 PM
Post #3
I see first Gen SC400s Dyno around 185-188 rwhp bone stock.
Then a SAFC and a Custom home made "BFI" Intake, theyre in the 205-208 rwhp. Well whatever.
Ill try to pick it up thursday if available.
--------------------
Martin
post Yesterday, 12:23 PM
Post #4
I didn't say it wouldn't make power.... mellow.gif
--------------------
[
Brad
post Yesterday, 04:03 PM
Post #5
QUOTE(Inabj2 @ Oct 18 2006, 12:02 PM) *
I see first Gen SC400s Dyno around 185-188 rwhp bone stock.
Then a SAFC and a Custom home made "BFI" Intake, theyre in the 205-208 rwhp. Well whatever.
Ill try to pick it up thursday if available.
i bet if those same people disconnected the safc, and bumped up their base timing a few degrees, they would get the same result. would be slower on the street though because their wallet would be $200 fatter though im sure
--------------------
Inabj2
post Today, 11:24 AM
Post #6
QUOTE(Brad @ Oct 18 2006, 04:03 PM) *
QUOTE(Inabj2 @ Oct 18 2006, 12:02 PM) *
I see first Gen SC400s Dyno around 185-188 rwhp bone stock.
Then a SAFC and a Custom home made "BFI" Intake, theyre in the 205-208 rwhp. Well whatever.
Ill try to pick it up thursday if available.
i bet if those same people disconnected the safc, and bumped up their base timing a few degrees, they would get the same result. would be slower on the street though because their wallet would be $200 fatter though im sure
Perhaps at the risk of pinging. Overall in the 3+ years I had my car it is known to be a worthwhile for the money mod.
SC's dont have the most effective tunes stock...
The main benefit for my car personally is I could gain more at bottom end since stock it tends to be cutting back before 4000 rpms. Its not a very linear torque curve. Having said that, I would definitively not use an SAFC to tune a modded boosted car...
This post has been edited by Inabj2: Today, 11:29 AM
--------------------
Kamin
post Today, 12:33 PM
Post #7
SAFC tricks the computer by changing airflow values right?
all your ignition mapping is based off your airflow the computer sees.
the safc is a waste of money.
--------------------
Ready, Aim, Pull the trigger NOW!
Group: Moderator
Posts: 6397
Joined: 13-June 03
From: Closer and closer
Member No.: 227
give it a shot.
if you engine blows up then "we told you so."
--------------------
CKAMC
post Today, 02:41 PM
Post #9
Speaking of SAFC... http://www.apexi-usa.com/product_ele......0&pageNum=1
another junk product? unsure.gif
--------------------
Kamin
post Today, 03:02 PM
Post #10
RB > SR
the principal behind the SAFC is junk (even the new one)
you cant just trick the computer to add more fuel. other things get changed and played with.
--------------------
AZhitman
post Today, 03:15 PM
Post #11
NicoDad
*SIgh*
Half the time, Juan is telling us what a "n00b" he is and that he has little to no mechanical aptitude...
...then, when the EXPERTS give sound advice, he knows better.
no.gif
SAFC = ****. Plain and simple.
Juan, you'd be better off bumping base timing, running Premium and getting an ECU reflash.
--------------------
Inabj2
post Today, 03:43 PM
Post #12
QUOTE(AZhitman @ Oct 19 2006, 03:15 PM) *
*SIgh*
Half the time, Juan is telling us what a "n00b" he is and that he has little to no mechanical aptitude...
...then, when the EXPERTS give sound advice, he knows better.
no.gif
SAFC = ****. Plain and simple.
Juan, you'd be better off bumping base timing, running Premium and getting an ECU reflash.
I run premium now, it IS REQUIRED! No one offers an ECU reflash for sc300 ecus. Im sure it could be done, but not in a manner thad be worth the money.
Theres no better alternative for stock SC300, theres no bikirom or etc for me to use instead, short of a full stand alone.
Either way its temporary thing I was going to try for my NA SC300, in no way shape or form was I going to install this in any type of boosted car. IF I do go boosted on the SC300, I wouldnt have anything less then a standalone or proper stock ecu before that.
This was something for me to use as meanwhile.
For some reason or another SC300 has always run rich, sometimes to the point where I can smell the gas when i hit wot, and off course the blackened exhaust tips.
Not sure how bumping base timing will resolve this problem?
--------------------
Toki
post Today, 03:43 PM
Post #13
If it's all you can afford, then use it. Don't you think if bumping the base timing was providing the same gains for them they would just be doing that?
I ran an s-afc for over a year, no problems what so ever. I also knew what my motor could handle, and knew the values on the stock timing map. I knew what I was changing the timing to and where....and it was great.
I dunno. That's just my take on it. Only use it if you know how it works, but thats kind of a general philosophy I have for everything.
--------------------
Inabj2
post Today, 03:48 PM
Post #14
Warn: (0%) -----
QUOTE(Toki @ Oct 19 2006, 03:43 PM) *
If it's all you can afford, then use it. Don't you think if bumping the base timing was providing the same gains for them they would just be doing that?
I ran an s-afc for over a year, no problems what so ever. I also knew what my motor could handle, and knew the values on the stock timing map. I knew what I was changing the timing to and where....and it was great.
I dunno. That's just my take on it. Only use it if you know how it works, but thats kind of a general philosophy I have for everything.
Its not all I can afford, at the moment, I guess I could go all out and buy a stand alone right now, only, itd be a waste of money for the little things I have done to the SC300. Its just something Id play with while I wait for my 240sx...
I should clarify that more then anything else itd be used in almost opposite way what most people have used it here on before. Rather then add fuel, I wonder if I need to take some out? Either way Id have it dyno tuned.
I know its worthless to use in highpower applications, I dont plan on using it on a high power vehicle at all.
This post has been edited by Inabj2: Today, 03:51 PM
--------------------
Brad
post Today, 03:49 PM
Post #15
Check your timing
Group: Original Gangsta
Posts: 12715
Joined: 16-November 02
From: ASU
Member No.: 64
but if you know how it works, then you shouldnt want to use it. theres no real way to change your timing or fuel, its just a crapshoot. the only viable way i could see it is by sitting on a dyno, making a pull, looking for dips in the A/F, then trying to adjust accordingly. but when you have to pull fuel out, it gets worse. the bigger the injectors, the worse it is
toki im guessing you have 370cc injectors? if thats the case then it will work way better for you than it did for people with 550s. pulling 33% fuel out across the board is a timing-**** of epic proportions, and thats BEFORE trying to make adjustments
--------------------
Toki
post Today, 04:03 PM
Post #16
460cc. my corrections were 22-27%
Tuned with a wideband, it was fine.
--------------------
CKAMC
post Today, 04:27 PM
Post #17
Greddy Ultimate? I am considering the unit for any car thats 96 and newer ....
Friend baught one for his 350z thats has the intake/intake mani/exhaust/headers/cams/test pipes and before install had 246whp and 232tq and after install got 257whp AND 242tq. I like it and easy to use.
--------------------
brian
post Today, 05:15 PM
Post #18
i've been reading emanage works pretty well. i plan on using one when i go turbo.
--------------------
AZhitman
post Today, 05:17 PM
Post #19
NicoDad
Juan, for what you're wanting the SAFC to do, you could buy a $10 "chip" off ebay.
--------------------
Inabj2
post Today, 07:01 PM
Post #20
QUOTE(AZhitman @ Oct 19 2006, 05:17 PM) *
Juan, for what you're wanting the SAFC to do, you could buy a $10 "chip" off ebay.
Greg, stop being a douche, seriously. Those chips are ussually straight through wires.
CKMAC People using the safc 2 had similar results with a later gen GS400.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...ghlight=SAFC+2
Personally I wouldnt use any type of piggyback if i were boosted.. but im not, and stock SC300s arent tuned terribly well, I just want a bit of gain here and there, while I wait for my next S13.
Somethings on this car works. Like cutting up the intake and rerouting it with what is known over there as "BFI intake". When I ran this car bone stock, it ran a horrid SOHC like time of 16.798@84ish mph, after tune up. Since then I did noting but very minor things and dropped the time 6 tenths of a second. to 16.216@87 mph. Still terrible slow, but I spent maybe 200 bucks on it overall to make that improvement. Im thinking I can get it in the high 15s, before I convert it to manual just by messing with it some more.
Nissans and Toyotas tune thing differently, my nissan did not seem absurdly rich whenever I hit wot like the SC300 always have been.
This post has been edited by Inabj2: Today, 07:09 PM
--------------------
Kamin
post Today, 07:16 PM
Post #21
RB > SR
do you have a wideband?
so you dont know for sure if its rich or not, right?
blind tuning is how bad things happen.
--------------------
Inabj2
post Today, 07:18 PM
Post #22
QUOTE(Kamin @ Oct 19 2006, 07:16 PM) *
do you have a wideband?
so you dont know for sure if its rich or not, right?
blind tuning is how bad things happen.
I dont plan to, thats why Ill have it dyno tuned.. its mostly just to keep me entertained while I wait type of deal...
--------------------
Martin
post Today, 08:16 PM
Post #23
/sarcasm
Juan's opinion: The SC300 feels rich when I'm WOT. Toyotas and Nissans tune totally differently. You guys just don't understand.
Rest of board's factual information: The SAFC is a terrible device that artificially manipulates your ECU. It will create gains in unsafe ways by altering your ECU's mapping and 'tricking' it into leaning out. The potential to get into an unsafe situation with this type of tuning is very very high.
My toyota tuning knowledge:
Juan, I *know* 5sfe's and 3sgte's have learning ECU's that will eventually compensate for the SAFC's tomfoolery, and erase any gains you get from them. They have an internal memory buffer that datalogs all of your inputs and adjusts the map based on the closed-loop O2 readings and whether you are WOT, how often you accelerate, etc etc. I can't picture a SC300's ECU being less advanced.
On MR2's, SAFC's can add power temporarily, but if you dyno test it after the ECU has adapted, (up to twenty driving cycles, I believe), as long as the SAFC adjustments are finer than the ECU's internal ability to compensate, it will be right back at the power level where it started. The fall-off in power is pretty gradual as the ECU slowly adapts, so most butt-dynos will miss it.
But...you know...it's your money. And it is a shiny box.
--------------------
Inabj2
post Today, 08:55 PM
Post #24
QUOTE(Martin @ Oct 19 2006, 08:16 PM) *
Juan's opinion: The SC300 feels rich when I'm WOT. Toyotas and Nissans tune totally differently. You guys just don't understand.
Rest of board's factual information: The SAFC is a terrible device that artificially manipulates your ECU. It will create gains in unsafe ways by altering your ECU's mapping and 'tricking' it into leaning out. The potential to get into an unsafe situation with this type of tuning is very very high.
My toyota tuning knowledge:
Juan, I *know* 5sfe's and 3sgte's have learning ECU's that will eventually compensate for the SAFC's tomfoolery, and erase any gains you get from them. They have an internal memory buffer that datalogs all of your inputs and adjusts the map based on the closed-loop O2 readings and whether you are WOT, how often you accelerate, etc etc. I can't picture a SC300's ECU being less advanced.
On MR2's, SAFC's can add power temporarily, but if you dyno test it after the ECU has adapted, (up to twenty driving cycles, I believe), as long as the SAFC adjustments are finer than the ECU's internal ability to compensate, it will be right back at the power level where it started. The fall-off in power is pretty gradual as the ECU slowly adapts, so most butt-dynos will miss it.
But...you know...it's your money. And it is a shiny box.
Yes I know about the ECU adapting to your driving conditions. Also why if you drive lawfully it is a good idea to reset it every so often and start fresh.
I figured that i should be able to reset the ecu just as before and use the settings I get from the dyno...
As for the rich part, I don't know when I can see the fuel gauge move slightly and smell it, something is not right. Also the darkened exhaust tips. It could be from the fuel pump I had to replace, I put in a 255lph walbro about 2 years ago. Not because I thought id be cool about it, but because the original fuel pump died on me. Replacement oem fuel pump was roughly about 300 dollars, vs 95.
I could try a Greddy E-manage, but at nearly 500 dollars, not sure its worth it. 1 year ago no one here would of said the SAFC is ****, who knows that a year from now you wont find out that the E-manage works the same way? Remember I dont plan to use this engine for more then 18 months.
Unless someone here offers me an better alternative solution other then "advance timing!" I guess I have no choice, to date I dont see anyone doing ecu reflashes for a SC300, certainly not for less then 200 bucks. If you see someone please let me know..
In the 3+ years that I had my SC, no SAFC user has reported a blown engine because of it. In fact it is not known as a pos, just as something that is not best suited to be used for high hp applications.
This post has been edited by Inabj2: Today, 08:57 PM
--------------------
AZ-ZBum
post Today, 08:56 PM
Post #25
QUOTE(Martin @ Oct 19 2006, 08:16 PM) *
But...you know...it's your money. And it is a shiny box.
And it's another line item on the mod list.
--------------------
Im quoting this becuase I only want input from experienced users with SAFC installed on their cars, instead of linking the information. It is NOT my intent to start any type of interforum trolling or what not. I like both forums the same, im just searching for information from you guys as well.
Thanks in advance.
What is your oppinion of the SAFC 2? And are there better alternatives for our cars for the money?
10-19-06, 11:55 PM
#2
Lexus Test Driver
they are absolutely awesome. If you are looking for roughly 20 hp 20 tq, in an sc400/300, and want to spend like 500 bux, this is a good option. but make sure u get this after u get ur intake/exhaust. it's a piggy back computer that costs 250-300 these days, and costs about 200 for an hour dyno tune, and you get to see how much hp ur car has. I think you can have 2 or more settings, but im not sure. If i was gonna get it tuned, id get a tune for all out power, and one for gas mileage. But again, im not sure if it has that 2 setting option.
10-20-06, 03:48 AM
#3
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I was going to buy it used for 160 bucks. And 200 dollars for a dyno tune? I might buy it, and let it sit till after i re register my car for another 2 years before bothering.
200 dollar an hour for a dyno tune.. yikes... Ill shop around.
See im not entirely convinced theyre the best way to tune a car, Although to some extent these people can come accross as super douchbags to make a point (yet in person theyll behave, its just a case of internet courage, theyre all local.), I think they do have a valid point. Lying to the ECU about what kind of air your receiving can't be ideal. But I dont see any other alternative.
Does anyone offer an ecu reflash for our cars? I never seen anyone have it done, in the 3 years I been here.
Anyways it was something I was considering toying with while I wait for yet another 240sx to play with.
Does E-manage from greddy work the same way?
200 dollar an hour for a dyno tune.. yikes... Ill shop around.
See im not entirely convinced theyre the best way to tune a car, Although to some extent these people can come accross as super douchbags to make a point (yet in person theyll behave, its just a case of internet courage, theyre all local.), I think they do have a valid point. Lying to the ECU about what kind of air your receiving can't be ideal. But I dont see any other alternative.
Does anyone offer an ecu reflash for our cars? I never seen anyone have it done, in the 3 years I been here.
Anyways it was something I was considering toying with while I wait for yet another 240sx to play with.
Does E-manage from greddy work the same way?
10-20-06, 09:29 AM
#4
Lexus Test Driver
I was going to buy it used for 160 bucks. And 200 dollars for a dyno tune? I might buy it, and let it sit till after i re register my car for another 2 years before bothering.
200 dollar an hour for a dyno tune.. yikes... Ill shop around.
See im not entirely convinced theyre the best way to tune a car, Although to some extent these people can come accross as super douchbags to make a point (yet in person theyll behave, its just a case of internet courage, theyre all local.), I think they do have a valid point. Lying to the ECU about what kind of air your receiving can't be ideal. But I dont see any other alternative.
Does anyone offer an ecu reflash for our cars? I never seen anyone have it done, in the 3 years I been here.
Anyways it was something I was considering toying with while I wait for yet another 240sx to play with.
Does E-manage from greddy work the same way?
200 dollar an hour for a dyno tune.. yikes... Ill shop around.
See im not entirely convinced theyre the best way to tune a car, Although to some extent these people can come accross as super douchbags to make a point (yet in person theyll behave, its just a case of internet courage, theyre all local.), I think they do have a valid point. Lying to the ECU about what kind of air your receiving can't be ideal. But I dont see any other alternative.
Does anyone offer an ecu reflash for our cars? I never seen anyone have it done, in the 3 years I been here.
Anyways it was something I was considering toying with while I wait for yet another 240sx to play with.
Does E-manage from greddy work the same way?
There's nothing wrong w/ lying to your ecu. As long as u have an experienced tuner, everything will be okay. The dyno tuning could be cheaper at other places, i know for an hour church auto in socal does hondas' vafc's for 160an hour.
10-20-06, 11:31 AM
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It doesnt lie to the computer. The SAFC adds or takes away fuel as necessary. The shop here in Baton Rouge tunes the SAFC2 for 70 an hour . I will let everyone know how well it went after I get mine tuned...I still have yet to install it.
. I will let everyone know how well it went after I get mine tuned...I still have yet to install it.
10-20-06, 01:21 PM
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Christ I need to take more time to type out my responses, just look at the number of typos I made!
Anyways I have a choice of buying an used SAFC for 50 bucks, or an used SAFC for 160 bucks...
hmm which one should I go for?
Anyways I have a choice of buying an used SAFC for 50 bucks, or an used SAFC for 160 bucks...
hmm which one should I go for?
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10-20-06, 01:26 PM
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Its a device that is put between the "intake" parameters taken from the sensors and the ECU itself. Basically when your ECU gets a specific voltage from reading in your Mass Air Flow sensor such as Intake Air Temperature or the Volume of air coming in, the sensors gather that information and send it to the ECU as a voltage.
For Example 60-65 degrees could be represented by a voltage of 2.7 volts, or the amount of air being taken in by your car at say 2000 rpms is measured and represented at4.2 volts. The ECU will take those values and put them in a math formula that then calculates according to the voltages it got and spit out the result as a signal that goes to your fuel injectors and adjust your ignition timing. The formula usually consist of information such as engine speed *rpms,* Intake Air Temperature, Volume of air coming in, and sometimes the O2 sensors factor into this as well.
Now what the S-AFC does is it plugs into the middle of those sensors and the ECU and where as your ACTUAL sensor reading might be say 80 degrees or 3.2 volts the S-AFC takes that and decides to modify the voltage to something like 2.7 volts so now your computer thinks its cooler out then it really is and gives a more aggressive tune because of this or vice versa. Basically it takes all those reading and modifies them to be less conservative then they are stock, or if you prefer more conservative depending on how you set it. Yeah it is fooling the ECU to think things are not how they actually are BUT normally factory tunes are VERY conservative, so there is room to work with it.
If your concerned about safety I could just tell you that it is MORE likely to cause issues then with the stock parts NOT being fooled by a modifier in between the line like that. But is it very likely to give you issues with a good tuner or "blow up" you car? No not really. Just basically makes the car be more aggressive then stock. ESPECIALLY if your car is naturally aspirated.
I hope this helps explain what the device does and how it works, hopefully help you make a decision. If I remember correctly the previous S-AFCs that I am used to on other cars would only adjust fuel only, so you could lean or richen that as you tuned. However ignition timing is a BIG part of getting more power and I am not very sure if the S-AFC can adjust ignition timing on our cars because of how the ECU works with these models. *I am referring to SC400s using distributors* On other cars you can manually adjust ignition timing or you might need another device to do so.
Good Luck,
For Example 60-65 degrees could be represented by a voltage of 2.7 volts, or the amount of air being taken in by your car at say 2000 rpms is measured and represented at4.2 volts. The ECU will take those values and put them in a math formula that then calculates according to the voltages it got and spit out the result as a signal that goes to your fuel injectors and adjust your ignition timing. The formula usually consist of information such as engine speed *rpms,* Intake Air Temperature, Volume of air coming in, and sometimes the O2 sensors factor into this as well.
Now what the S-AFC does is it plugs into the middle of those sensors and the ECU and where as your ACTUAL sensor reading might be say 80 degrees or 3.2 volts the S-AFC takes that and decides to modify the voltage to something like 2.7 volts so now your computer thinks its cooler out then it really is and gives a more aggressive tune because of this or vice versa. Basically it takes all those reading and modifies them to be less conservative then they are stock, or if you prefer more conservative depending on how you set it. Yeah it is fooling the ECU to think things are not how they actually are BUT normally factory tunes are VERY conservative, so there is room to work with it.
If your concerned about safety I could just tell you that it is MORE likely to cause issues then with the stock parts NOT being fooled by a modifier in between the line like that. But is it very likely to give you issues with a good tuner or "blow up" you car? No not really. Just basically makes the car be more aggressive then stock. ESPECIALLY if your car is naturally aspirated.
I hope this helps explain what the device does and how it works, hopefully help you make a decision. If I remember correctly the previous S-AFCs that I am used to on other cars would only adjust fuel only, so you could lean or richen that as you tuned. However ignition timing is a BIG part of getting more power and I am not very sure if the S-AFC can adjust ignition timing on our cars because of how the ECU works with these models. *I am referring to SC400s using distributors* On other cars you can manually adjust ignition timing or you might need another device to do so.
Good Luck,
10-21-06, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Inabj2
I also wonder if the ECU learns to slwoly adapt to the changes made everytime you drive it, thus lowering hte power output over time?
10-21-06, 04:14 PM
#12
Lexus Champion
i dont see what the big deal is. hell, if i could get one for $50, i would. there are a number of threads here that show descent (12-25hp) gains with an S-AFC. regardless of what it takes to do what it does, it esentually changes the air/fuel mixture like what has been said here. like brett said, stock has a very conservative tune. why not maximize the output? i dont see how the ECU would learn to reset the values since it is taking commands from the signals it receives. if the signals are always the same from the S-AFC, then why would it learn anything different than the tune?
i would like to see those that have it post up their settings for the SC300 and SC400 and what their increases were.
i have dyno'ed my car at meets for $20, of which i only paid half and the other was covered by a curious friend.
if i went off of what others posted as to what to set an S-AFC to, then i would just have to set it between the 3 pulls i had, and i would'nt need to pay $100/hr for tuning.
bottom line, its been dyno proven to work with the SCs, and no one has posted anything about hurting their car with it, or loosing power over time, so why not just get it and enjoy it? there are too many good reviews here.
i would like to see those that have it post up their settings for the SC300 and SC400 and what their increases were.
i have dyno'ed my car at meets for $20, of which i only paid half and the other was covered by a curious friend.
if i went off of what others posted as to what to set an S-AFC to, then i would just have to set it between the 3 pulls i had, and i would'nt need to pay $100/hr for tuning. bottom line, its been dyno proven to work with the SCs, and no one has posted anything about hurting their car with it, or loosing power over time, so why not just get it and enjoy it? there are too many good reviews here.
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