RaceChip performance tuning?
05-26-15, 11:14 AM
#2
Lexus Test Driver
I personally have never been a fan of "chips". Chips are an old technology, and many times are proven to be fake and a waste of money. Now SOME, have been able to find gains, others find nothing, or get CELs because your ECU has no idea whats happening and why something is intruding on its settings.
Gaining 60hp from a chip, I don't really see how that's possible unless they are upping the boost so you're running 10+psi all the time. In that case, your wear and tear on the turbo will occur much faster.
An intake will get you ~5hp and an exhaust would get you about the same (these numbers go up as you gain displacement). Tuning, if done properly, will net you 10-20hp. So, the idea of 60 makes me very skeptical.
Personally, I would steer away from it. But if you're interested, I would recommend you send them an email and inquire about it. Ask them questions such as:
1. Did Toyota provide them with the proper unlocking codes for the ECU?
2. If #1 is no, how did they view the proper fuel mapping and boost tables considering that Toyota locks ECUs?
3. Where are they getting 60hp from? What parameters are they pulling from (which is nothing if they can't answer #1 or #2)? Is there a dyno result to show this? If no chart, no proof. Furthermore, ask how lean they have moved the A/F ratio. If its coming near stoicometric, that's concerning and will most certainly shorten the life.
4. Do they have an in-shop NX? If they don't, it means they experimented with a customer's car and have no idea of the long term life of this mod.
5. Also consider that even if its a chip, your ECU will make a time stamp of the moment you connect it because several parameters will go "off scale". So good bye warranty...if that means something to you.
Finally, just things in my mind
1. They don't discuss if this impacts open or closed loop tuning...
2. No one ever gains hp and gains MPG. Those simply don't happen.... Only way that happens, is if you're running incredibly lean.
Gaining 60hp from a chip, I don't really see how that's possible unless they are upping the boost so you're running 10+psi all the time. In that case, your wear and tear on the turbo will occur much faster.
An intake will get you ~5hp and an exhaust would get you about the same (these numbers go up as you gain displacement). Tuning, if done properly, will net you 10-20hp. So, the idea of 60 makes me very skeptical.
Personally, I would steer away from it. But if you're interested, I would recommend you send them an email and inquire about it. Ask them questions such as:
1. Did Toyota provide them with the proper unlocking codes for the ECU?
2. If #1 is no, how did they view the proper fuel mapping and boost tables considering that Toyota locks ECUs?
3. Where are they getting 60hp from? What parameters are they pulling from (which is nothing if they can't answer #1 or #2)? Is there a dyno result to show this? If no chart, no proof. Furthermore, ask how lean they have moved the A/F ratio. If its coming near stoicometric, that's concerning and will most certainly shorten the life.
4. Do they have an in-shop NX? If they don't, it means they experimented with a customer's car and have no idea of the long term life of this mod.
5. Also consider that even if its a chip, your ECU will make a time stamp of the moment you connect it because several parameters will go "off scale". So good bye warranty...if that means something to you.
Finally, just things in my mind
1. They don't discuss if this impacts open or closed loop tuning...
2. No one ever gains hp and gains MPG. Those simply don't happen.... Only way that happens, is if you're running incredibly lean.
Last edited by Swacer; 05-26-15 at 11:19 AM.
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JHouston (03-04-22)
05-26-15, 11:18 AM
#3
Advanced
Thread Starter
Excellent response - thank you!
BTW, it's just something I ran across on the Net, not something I'd actually consider. I tend to drive in Eco mode most of the time and - aside from some 80-90 MPH highway driving (which is very typical here in the Atlanta area) - mostly concentrate on getting good gas mileage.
BTW, it's just something I ran across on the Net, not something I'd actually consider. I tend to drive in Eco mode most of the time and - aside from some 80-90 MPH highway driving (which is very typical here in the Atlanta area) - mostly concentrate on getting good gas mileage.
05-26-15, 11:28 AM
#4
Advanced
Thread Starter
I have sent them the following email:
Hi, I have some questions about the Racechip(s) for the Lexus NX200:
1. Did Toyota provide you with the unlocking codes for the ECU?
2. If not, how did you learn the proper fuel mapping and boost tables (considering that Toyota locks their ECUs)?
3. Where do you get the horsepower increase statistics from? What parameters are you pulling from? Do you have a dyno result to show this?
4. How lean have you moved the A/F ratio? Is it coming near stoichiometric?
4. Do you have an NX200 actually in your shop (so that long-term efficiency and wear can be monitored)?
5. Won't the ECU make a time stamp of the moment you connect the Racechip (because several parameters will go "off scale")?. I'm concerned about the warranty of my NX.
Thank you in advance.
Let's see if/how they respond.
1. Did Toyota provide you with the unlocking codes for the ECU?
2. If not, how did you learn the proper fuel mapping and boost tables (considering that Toyota locks their ECUs)?
3. Where do you get the horsepower increase statistics from? What parameters are you pulling from? Do you have a dyno result to show this?
4. How lean have you moved the A/F ratio? Is it coming near stoichiometric?
4. Do you have an NX200 actually in your shop (so that long-term efficiency and wear can be monitored)?
5. Won't the ECU make a time stamp of the moment you connect the Racechip (because several parameters will go "off scale")?. I'm concerned about the warranty of my NX.
Thank you in advance.
05-26-15, 01:13 PM
#5
Advanced
Thread Starter
Responses from RaceChip:
Hello Steve,
1. Did Toyota provide you with the unlocking codes for the ECU?
No - we use reverse engineering techniques. Unfortunately more cannot be disclosed.
2. If not, how did you learn the proper fuel mapping and boost tables (considering that Toyota locks their ECUs)?
See 1.
3. Where do you get the horsepower increase statistics from? What parameters are you pulling from? Do you have a dyno result to show this?
We publish crank power, not whp so it can be compared to stock data. We have several offices around the globe. The software for this vehicle was developed with the help of our folks in China where the vehicle was presented first.
4. How lean they have you moved the A/F ratio? Is it coming near stoichiometric?
Internal information but if you have the tools you can read this out.
4. Do you have an NX200 actually in your shop (so that long-term efficiency and wear can be monitored)?
The long term test was conducted in China and Malaysia. In the US we conducted Q/A for the software for the local market.
5. Won't the ECU make a time stamp of the moment you connect the Racechip (because several parameters will go "off scale")?. I'm concerned about the warranty of my NX
Certain considerations were made in the software for this as we do with most of the Toyota/Lexus engines. They are a bit different than a standard VAG engine.
Thanks
Paul
Swacer, they do claim to have sold over 250K of these for a wide variety of vehicles and have a plethora of favorable reviews in trade and enthusiast magazines, some of which are pretty eye-opening.
1. Did Toyota provide you with the unlocking codes for the ECU?
No - we use reverse engineering techniques. Unfortunately more cannot be disclosed.
2. If not, how did you learn the proper fuel mapping and boost tables (considering that Toyota locks their ECUs)?
See 1.
3. Where do you get the horsepower increase statistics from? What parameters are you pulling from? Do you have a dyno result to show this?
We publish crank power, not whp so it can be compared to stock data. We have several offices around the globe. The software for this vehicle was developed with the help of our folks in China where the vehicle was presented first.
4. How lean they have you moved the A/F ratio? Is it coming near stoichiometric?
Internal information but if you have the tools you can read this out.
4. Do you have an NX200 actually in your shop (so that long-term efficiency and wear can be monitored)?
The long term test was conducted in China and Malaysia. In the US we conducted Q/A for the software for the local market.
5. Won't the ECU make a time stamp of the moment you connect the Racechip (because several parameters will go "off scale")?. I'm concerned about the warranty of my NX
Certain considerations were made in the software for this as we do with most of the Toyota/Lexus engines. They are a bit different than a standard VAG engine.
Thanks
Paul
Last edited by 15RC350F; 05-26-15 at 01:16 PM.
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05-26-15, 01:51 PM
#8
Lexus Test Driver
Alright, lets take these one by one...
You can not reverse engineer something that is locked in its entirety. If they found a way to hack this, there would be tuners discussing this. It has been 8 years now, and only 1 company has hacked the IS-F ECU, and that was because Toyota helped them and gave them the code. The fact that they avoid the question leads me to believe poor hackers and even worse liars at best.
This is rather disrespectful to the customer. They are avoiding the question.
3. Where do you get the horsepower increase statistics from? What parameters are you pulling from? Do you have a dyno result to show this?
We publish crank power, not whp so it can be compared to stock data. We have several offices around the globe. The software for this vehicle was developed with the help of our folks in China where the vehicle was presented first.
"We publish crank power", that does not answer the question at all. If anything, it nullifies their information even further. When you do power mods, you start with a base dyno run, which will give you the wheel hp. Then you install the mod, and dyno the car again. You then see the difference and that is the hp gain that you quote. You never show an increase in crank hp because that can never be truly determined due to variable drive train losses. Again, they are avoiding the question and did not provide an actual dyno plot. My assumptions are everything they have done is on the computer and its all theoretical, nothing proven.
They are taking you for a fool to be honest. Any real shop, such as FJ performance out here, or Ligenfelter, or Lethal Racing (shops I've been dealing with) are more than willing to tell you exactly what they are doing to your cars computer, what parameters they are changing, what those changes will do, and exactly what you're paying for. This is just treating a customer like an idiot.
Finally, the moment that they said "help of our folks in China"...they lost me. I refuse to deal with the subpar offerings that China offers the world. Even more so when it comes to my car.
lol
Yay! Tests in a country that isn't mine. I honestly couldn't care less what happens in China and Malaysia.
Again, didn't answer the question, and thats fine, because if he tells you your warranty is junk, he loses the customer. But in the end, your warranty is gone.
You can not reverse engineer something that is locked in its entirety. If they found a way to hack this, there would be tuners discussing this. It has been 8 years now, and only 1 company has hacked the IS-F ECU, and that was because Toyota helped them and gave them the code. The fact that they avoid the question leads me to believe poor hackers and even worse liars at best.
3. Where do you get the horsepower increase statistics from? What parameters are you pulling from? Do you have a dyno result to show this?
We publish crank power, not whp so it can be compared to stock data. We have several offices around the globe. The software for this vehicle was developed with the help of our folks in China where the vehicle was presented first.
They are taking you for a fool to be honest. Any real shop, such as FJ performance out here, or Ligenfelter, or Lethal Racing (shops I've been dealing with) are more than willing to tell you exactly what they are doing to your cars computer, what parameters they are changing, what those changes will do, and exactly what you're paying for. This is just treating a customer like an idiot.
Finally, the moment that they said "help of our folks in China"...they lost me. I refuse to deal with the subpar offerings that China offers the world. Even more so when it comes to my car.
5. Won't the ECU make a time stamp of the moment you connect the Racechip (because several parameters will go "off scale")?. I'm concerned about the warranty of my NX
Certain considerations were made in the software for this as we do with most of the Toyota/Lexus engines. They are a bit different than a standard VAG engine.
Certain considerations were made in the software for this as we do with most of the Toyota/Lexus engines. They are a bit different than a standard VAG engine.
05-26-15, 02:13 PM
#9
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If Lexus engineers are getting the power they are getting, that is safe, I am sure that they could have gotten more for the engine but at what cost. A few unknown cannot safely do better than one hundred of the best engineers.
05-26-15, 08:01 PM
#10
Lexus Test Driver
Ils ne sont pas cons ces Chinois
05-27-15, 03:37 AM
#11
Lexus Test Driver
I'm sure there is more power hidden in that engine, but without access to the ECU, there is really no way to know for sure where that limit is. A few unknowns can and have done better than hundreds of engineers in various fields and other products, just not Toyota or Lexus engine management since it's locked tight.
Ils ne sont pas cons ces Chinois
Ils ne sont pas cons ces Chinois
And I agree, don't give too much credit to "Lexus engineers", they are really just normal people with normal degrees and aren't any more special than the rest of us. Arguably, they are less intelligent than the proper modders as the modders had to figure out the work arounds and spent the time in the shop getting the programming right.
however, these chip guys, are not those proper modders.
05-27-15, 04:29 AM
#12
Lexus Test Driver
And I agree, don't give too much credit to "Lexus engineers", they are really just normal people with normal degrees and aren't any more special than the rest of us. Arguably, they are less intelligent than the proper modders as the modders had to figure out the work arounds and spent the time in the shop getting the programming right.
06-21-15, 05:58 PM
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Hi Guys, thought i offer my 2 cents in this matter.
Had a racechip installed in my Mercedes C180 CGI engine a few years back.
Notable turbo kick in, but it always trigger my CEL so i took it out after 50k miles.
The ride is also more jerky as the ECU and TCU was trying to make sense of the extra power.
How it works.
From the installation, my observation tells me that it connects to the 2 pressure sensors that governs your turbo wastegate. How it feels when i drive is a longer turbo shift.
I suspect they read the original pressure reading and tone it down a bit to make the car believe it has not reached its peak yet. This would inturn push more air into the engine and the ECU will most of the time automatically adjust for this by pumping more fuel into the ignition chamber.
Had my fuel pump failed on me before i took it out. Which is why i suspect it is trying to pump more fuel than its designed for. But installation was very easy and done within 10 mins, do i took it out and back to the dealer and they replaced the fuel pump for me.
Hope that helps!
Had a racechip installed in my Mercedes C180 CGI engine a few years back.
Notable turbo kick in, but it always trigger my CEL so i took it out after 50k miles.
The ride is also more jerky as the ECU and TCU was trying to make sense of the extra power.
How it works.
From the installation, my observation tells me that it connects to the 2 pressure sensors that governs your turbo wastegate. How it feels when i drive is a longer turbo shift.
I suspect they read the original pressure reading and tone it down a bit to make the car believe it has not reached its peak yet. This would inturn push more air into the engine and the ECU will most of the time automatically adjust for this by pumping more fuel into the ignition chamber.
Had my fuel pump failed on me before i took it out. Which is why i suspect it is trying to pump more fuel than its designed for. But installation was very easy and done within 10 mins, do i took it out and back to the dealer and they replaced the fuel pump for me.
Hope that helps!
08-05-15, 05:34 AM
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Simply bleeding off pressure from the wastegate is not a safe way to increase boost. The ECU does not have proper programming to properly fuel this condition, especially since it really may not know how much boost is being delivered. It worked in early Dodge turbos and other cars of that era since those systems relied on a pressure sensor in the manifold and used a mechanical spring to regulate the waste gate. The only thing that could properly work would be to also alter something like the temp sensor so the ECU thinks there is denser air to go along with the added boost, but this is just fooling the system and does not give the ECU real information to control the fuel. Too easy to run lean and blow something. Better to wait for someone to come out with a way to reprogram the ECU