About to purchase a GL350 over the LX570
07-26-13, 12:17 PM
#31
LX570 does 0-60 in 7.5 seconds
GL350 does 0-60 in 8.4 seconds
these are 0-60 numbers where torque is directly relevant.
Perhaps Randy B can explain to us how LX570, being a much heavier vehicle with less torque, is able to accelerate (which, by the way, equals pull) faster than GL350 which is lighter and have more torque?
HP=TORQUExRPM which also means that TORQUE=HP÷RPM... Why is it so hard for people to understand that more HP can be converted to more TORQUE at the wheels is beyond me. Who cares that the gasser produces less torque at the crankshaft... once it starts spinning beyond 3500RPM it will eat the diesel alive in every category except MPG.
Regarding unibody:
I have a friend who builds boats for a living. He tows a lot (boats to/from the customers). They tried to use unibody vehicles for towing but he says after couple years these simply don't hold up. The doors become misaligned, the trunk no longer shuts properly and so on. Unibody just can not sustain constant punishment the towing puts on the vehicle and they start to give.
07-26-13, 01:59 PM
#32
From the manufacturer's sites:
2013 Lexus LX570: Horsepower 383 hp @ 5,600
Torque 403 lb-ft @ 3,600
2013 GL350: Net power 240 hp @ 3,600 rpm
Net torque 455 lb-ft @ 1,600-2,400 rpm
The GL350 will pull away from the LX with a comparable load all day until they both reach approximately 3600 RPM. After that, I would believe the LX would out pull as the LX's peak torque is reached and the HP curve is just starting to climb through to its peak well surpassing the GL. From a dead start/stop, the GL will feel effortless, while the LX will feel under duress in direct comparison.
And this is what it is all about, feel. As to the overall lasting effects of unibody vs frame, I have no idea for facts. I would believe that the frame would hold up better and for longer periods with the same heavier weights pulled on a regular basis.
Randy B
Torque 403 lb-ft @ 3,600
2013 GL350: Net power 240 hp @ 3,600 rpm
Net torque 455 lb-ft @ 1,600-2,400 rpm
The GL350 will pull away from the LX with a comparable load all day until they both reach approximately 3600 RPM. After that, I would believe the LX would out pull as the LX's peak torque is reached and the HP curve is just starting to climb through to its peak well surpassing the GL. From a dead start/stop, the GL will feel effortless, while the LX will feel under duress in direct comparison.
And this is what it is all about, feel. As to the overall lasting effects of unibody vs frame, I have no idea for facts. I would believe that the frame would hold up better and for longer periods with the same heavier weights pulled on a regular basis.
Randy B
07-26-13, 02:47 PM
#33
Driver
Thread Starter
^ That is correct. It's the torque at low RPMs that allows for easier and effortless towing. Plus the MPG is better. Try towing with a gasser and your MPG's will be in the single digits.
No doubt the body on frame will last longer. If I were to be towing for my livelihood then I'd get a pickup. We're talking about a dual purpose vehicle. Family hauler (luxury) and an occasional towing job. i.e., for watersports or motorsports.
As much as I like the Lexus, it's not going to happen, unless someone tells me that the Benz is so unreliable that I shouldn't even buy it.
No doubt the body on frame will last longer. If I were to be towing for my livelihood then I'd get a pickup. We're talking about a dual purpose vehicle. Family hauler (luxury) and an occasional towing job. i.e., for watersports or motorsports.
As much as I like the Lexus, it's not going to happen, unless someone tells me that the Benz is so unreliable that I shouldn't even buy it.
07-26-13, 03:53 PM
#34
Here is the overlayed HP/Torque curve for 4.5TDI vs 5.7L (the picture is from IH8MUD thread):
As you can see after 3500RPM it's lights out for 4.5TDI and 5.7L beats it. And I would think that 3.5 Merc diesel is less capable than 4.5TDI from Toyota. It's going to give to 5.7L way earlier than 3600RPM.
07-26-13, 04:05 PM
#35
^ That is correct. It's the torque at low RPMs that allows for easier and effortless towing. Plus the MPG is better. Try towing with a gasser and your MPG's will be in the single digits.
No doubt the body on frame will last longer. If I were to be towing for my livelihood then I'd get a pickup. We're talking about a dual purpose vehicle. Family hauler (luxury) and an occasional towing job. i.e., for watersports or motorsports.
As much as I like the Lexus, it's not going to happen, unless someone tells me that the Benz is so unreliable that I shouldn't even buy it.
No doubt the body on frame will last longer. If I were to be towing for my livelihood then I'd get a pickup. We're talking about a dual purpose vehicle. Family hauler (luxury) and an occasional towing job. i.e., for watersports or motorsports.
As much as I like the Lexus, it's not going to happen, unless someone tells me that the Benz is so unreliable that I shouldn't even buy it.
However, it _is_ going to lose to 5.7L in every metric except MPG. Put the pedal to the metal on 5.7L and 3.5 Merc diesel has no chance whatsoever.
Even Randy B admits that it's going to loose after 3600RPM (though I think much earlier but so be it). How long does it take for 5.7L to get to 3600RPM? Like 0.2 seconds? So after 0.2 seconds diesel will be breathing nothing but dust from 5.7L.
07-27-13, 10:44 AM
#36
Lexus Fanatic
2013 Lexus LX570: Horsepower 383 hp @ 5,600
Torque 403 lb-ft @ 3,600
2013 GL350: Net power 240 hp @ 3,600 rpm
Net torque 455 lb-ft @ 1,600-2,400 rpm
The GL350 will pull away from the LX with a comparable load all day until they both reach approximately 3600 RPM. After that, I would believe the LX would out pull as the LX's peak torque is reached and the HP curve is just starting to climb through to its peak well surpassing the GL. From a dead start/stop, the GL will feel effortless, while the LX will feel under duress in direct comparison.
And this is what it is all about, feel. As to the overall lasting effects of unibody vs frame, I have no idea for facts. I would believe that the frame would hold up better and for longer periods with the same heavier weights pulled on a regular basis.
Randy B
Torque 403 lb-ft @ 3,600
2013 GL350: Net power 240 hp @ 3,600 rpm
Net torque 455 lb-ft @ 1,600-2,400 rpm
The GL350 will pull away from the LX with a comparable load all day until they both reach approximately 3600 RPM. After that, I would believe the LX would out pull as the LX's peak torque is reached and the HP curve is just starting to climb through to its peak well surpassing the GL. From a dead start/stop, the GL will feel effortless, while the LX will feel under duress in direct comparison.
And this is what it is all about, feel. As to the overall lasting effects of unibody vs frame, I have no idea for facts. I would believe that the frame would hold up better and for longer periods with the same heavier weights pulled on a regular basis.
Randy B
07-31-13, 02:22 PM
#37
I don't think anybody here argues that diesel feels better. It can produce more HP at lower RPM due to higher torque and that's a fact.
However, it _is_ going to lose to 5.7L in every metric except MPG. Put the pedal to the metal on 5.7L and 3.5 Merc diesel has no chance whatsoever.
Even Randy B admits that it's going to loose after 3600RPM (though I think much earlier but so be it). How long does it take for 5.7L to get to 3600RPM? Like 0.2 seconds? So after 0.2 seconds diesel will be breathing nothing but dust from 5.7L.
However, it _is_ going to lose to 5.7L in every metric except MPG. Put the pedal to the metal on 5.7L and 3.5 Merc diesel has no chance whatsoever.
Even Randy B admits that it's going to loose after 3600RPM (though I think much earlier but so be it). How long does it take for 5.7L to get to 3600RPM? Like 0.2 seconds? So after 0.2 seconds diesel will be breathing nothing but dust from 5.7L.
07-31-13, 04:46 PM
#39
Driver
Thread Starter
^ wow, finally. someone who appreciates any car for their capabilities and performance; no matter the manufacturer.
how's the reliability? That's my only concern with the GL.
how's the reliability? That's my only concern with the GL.
07-31-13, 07:08 PM
#40
Try to pull a 12k travel trailer at high elevation with any gas motor you choose, you will be gasping in the slow lane while all the turbo-diesel trucks pass you with their cruise controls set at 65. Are you going to pull a heavy load across the country with your "pedal to the metal"or at 3600 rpm the whole way? The beauty of the diesels are the loads of torgue at very low rpms.
08-01-13, 06:49 AM
#41
Lexus Champion
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So you had the opportunity to buy one of the greatest luxury utility vehicles ever made, and instead decided to buy a $75,000 glorified high-riding station wagon made by a German company in Alabama.........good luck.
Just by simply search their websites, Lexus claims the LX can do 0-60 in 7.5 seconds while MB says the GL350 takes 8.3 seconds. Even at higher altitudes, the GL350 will not have a performance advantage over that meaty 5.7L. They are comparable in torque (both in amount and delivery, ie relatively flat), but the LX has a massive HP advantage. Torque GETS you going, but horsepower KEEPS you going. In sustained performance, see if a relatively small diesel can keep up with a more powerful gasser (simple example: VW Jetta TDI 2.0 vs a Civic Si 2.0!). In a high altitude passing scenario when laden, that relatively small MB diesel is going to fall on its FACE. Quadro said it well....good grief!
Anything, and I mean ANYTHING the GL can do, the LX can do better.
You came to the Lexus forum to seek validation about choosing (poorly, in my opinion) a Mercedes. People responded appropriately. I love how one of the tags is "worry". lol Hope it doesn't keep you awake at night.
Just by simply search their websites, Lexus claims the LX can do 0-60 in 7.5 seconds while MB says the GL350 takes 8.3 seconds. Even at higher altitudes, the GL350 will not have a performance advantage over that meaty 5.7L. They are comparable in torque (both in amount and delivery, ie relatively flat), but the LX has a massive HP advantage. Torque GETS you going, but horsepower KEEPS you going. In sustained performance, see if a relatively small diesel can keep up with a more powerful gasser (simple example: VW Jetta TDI 2.0 vs a Civic Si 2.0!). In a high altitude passing scenario when laden, that relatively small MB diesel is going to fall on its FACE. Quadro said it well....good grief!
Anything, and I mean ANYTHING the GL can do, the LX can do better.
You came to the Lexus forum to seek validation about choosing (poorly, in my opinion) a Mercedes. People responded appropriately. I love how one of the tags is "worry". lol Hope it doesn't keep you awake at night.
Last edited by SecPole14; 08-01-13 at 07:46 AM.
08-01-13, 09:14 AM
#42
What's required to move anything is called mechanical work. This is what HP measures -- how much mechanical work an engine can perform. This is why an engine producing more HP will always win, period. Anyone who thinks otherwise should go back to high school.
From a pure physics perspective 1 rpm x 100 tq is no different than 100 rpm x 1 tq because it results in the same HP hence the same ability to perform mechanical work (not exactly true as there will be mechanical losses but makes the point).
Did people turned their brains off right after reading that HP=RPMxTORQUE?
TORQUE=HP÷RPM... RPM can be made variable via gearing so the only thing that matters when determining TORQUE (at the driveshaft, not the crankshaft) is HP (because it's a constant for any given engine).
From a pure physics perspective 1 rpm x 100 tq is no different than 100 rpm x 1 tq because it results in the same HP hence the same ability to perform mechanical work (not exactly true as there will be mechanical losses but makes the point).
Did people turned their brains off right after reading that HP=RPMxTORQUE?
TORQUE=HP÷RPM... RPM can be made variable via gearing so the only thing that matters when determining TORQUE (at the driveshaft, not the crankshaft) is HP (because it's a constant for any given engine).
08-01-13, 11:14 AM
#43
Lexus Fanatic
What's required to move anything is called mechanical work. This is what HP measures -- how much mechanical work an engine can perform. This is why an engine producing more HP will always win, period. Anyone who thinks otherwise should go back to high school.
From a pure physics perspective 1 rpm x 100 tq is no different than 100 rpm x 1 tq because it results in the same HP hence the same ability to perform mechanical work (not exactly true as there will be mechanical losses but makes the point).
Did people turned their brains off right after reading that HP=RPMxTORQUE?
TORQUE=HP÷RPM... RPM can be made variable via gearing so the only thing that matters when determining TORQUE (at the driveshaft, not the crankshaft) is HP (because it's a constant for any given engine).
From a pure physics perspective 1 rpm x 100 tq is no different than 100 rpm x 1 tq because it results in the same HP hence the same ability to perform mechanical work (not exactly true as there will be mechanical losses but makes the point).
Did people turned their brains off right after reading that HP=RPMxTORQUE?
TORQUE=HP÷RPM... RPM can be made variable via gearing so the only thing that matters when determining TORQUE (at the driveshaft, not the crankshaft) is HP (because it's a constant for any given engine).
A body on frame lx will out work the MB in this case. But the diesel in the MB will do fine with a small load in and around town.
08-01-13, 11:24 AM
#44
For the most part you are right. However, there are a few other factors that come into play, vehicle weight, drive train loss, transmissions, and even brakes all have an affect on what the vehicle can tow.
A body on frame lx will out work the MB in this case. But the diesel in the MB will do fine with a small load in and around town.
A body on frame lx will out work the MB in this case. But the diesel in the MB will do fine with a small load in and around town.
08-01-13, 04:16 PM
#45
What's required to move anything is called mechanical work. This is what HP measures -- how much mechanical work an engine can perform. This is why an engine producing more HP will always win, period. Anyone who thinks otherwise should go back to high school.
From a pure physics perspective 1 rpm x 100 tq is no different than 100 rpm x 1 tq because it results in the same HP hence the same ability to perform mechanical work (not exactly true as there will be mechanical losses but makes the point).
Did people turned their brains off right after reading that HP=RPMxTORQUE?
TORQUE=HP÷RPM... RPM can be made variable via gearing so the only thing that matters when determining TORQUE (at the driveshaft, not the crankshaft) is HP (because it's a constant for any given engine).
From a pure physics perspective 1 rpm x 100 tq is no different than 100 rpm x 1 tq because it results in the same HP hence the same ability to perform mechanical work (not exactly true as there will be mechanical losses but makes the point).
Did people turned their brains off right after reading that HP=RPMxTORQUE?
TORQUE=HP÷RPM... RPM can be made variable via gearing so the only thing that matters when determining TORQUE (at the driveshaft, not the crankshaft) is HP (because it's a constant for any given engine).
Hey Quadro why all the name calling? You sure know how to make people feel welcome on the 570 forum.
Your statement that "an engine producing more horsepower will always win, period" covers a lot of territory. My point is, do you tow by going wide open from stoplight to stoplight so you can use all that HP? By your definition, a truck with the new Corvette 6.2 C7 460hp engine "will always win period" compared to say the 6.7 litre Ford diesel or the Duramax with a lowly 400hp. Never mind the diesel produces 750 lbs of torque at 1600 rpm. Hook up 20k or so to the trucks above and see which one pulls better.
Signed,
Heading back to the 470 and 430 forums