ggebhardt

For the record, I would pay EXTRA $$$ to NOT have the third row installed at the factory. A waste of room to most owners.

Quadro

There has been a long thread over at IH8MUD on whether LC200 should be offered with Toyota's 4.5L twin turbo-diesel. It's quite an entertaining read on 4.5L TDI vs 5.7L Petrol.

CBRDude

Seriously I'd stick with a gasser and skip the diesel technology altogether. The cost difference and the fuel difference would should be enough to scare one away from it.

Like I've said we had nothing but problems, 3 days out from ownership. It was pure hell for those 6 months.

The diesel technology is not here yet. Although much more efficient per gallon of fuel, the emissions portions was the killer. That's why Jeep is having a hard time getting the New Cherokee though the system. It was software and mechanical issues with DEF all the way. MB changed suppliers like one changes our drawers.

You may also want to check the warranty issues on the DEF. It's not considered part of the federal emissions warranty. They will wiggle themselves out of it. When the DEF system craps out after the warranty you better reach for the KY as your going to need it. MB offered us an extended warranty after the third repair to make sure it got covered. 7 days later is was out again. At that point the DEF system over their heads and everyone called it quits. The software and mechanical changes could not keep up with each other.

We had other issues too, not just the DEF system. Those seemed minor compared to the other stuff going on.

I will tell you it's hard to find a tow vehicle that's up to the job. Trucks are normally used for that duty. But the wife refused the truck concept. Crossovers are nothing but people movers or reshaped minivans. Full size SUV's are going the way of the dino. Everyone wants to be green. Which is understandable, but we needed something to travel and haul with. We wanted a turn key deal as well. The thought of spending 50, 60 or 70K+ and then having to turn around and spend more money on a hitch, draw bar and wiring harness blew my mind. Lexus and Toyota were funny about the added tow hitch unless you bought the tow package. The LX was a perfect choice. Everything included and the hitch hides away for another day!

SaniDel

I've never towed anything so someone needs to explain this to me. I thought that towing is for trucks, i.e., if you have to tow a lot or often, you need a body-on-frame truck with a big engine. The ads on TV emphasize the towing capability of trucks ... I don't see ads for minivans towing anything!

Ray is making the claim that a 3.5 liter V-6 diesel in a unibody tows better than a 5.7 liter V-8 truck ... how can that be?
Regards,

SaniDel

Randy B

The MB has more torque and it comes up much lower in the rpm range than the LX gas. Torque is what gets the wheels moving post motion from the transmission. Think about a bicycle and gearing. The taller the gear in the back, the easier it is to pedal. The torque is your feet applying pressure on the front crank. Horsepower is what gets movement, torque is what makes motion. If you have more torque available at lower speeds, which diesels inherently do, you can pull heavier loads from a dead stop/start. Gas engines typically have a higher torque curve, meaning it takes more horsepower and more rpms to make torque. Therefore, torque is not available at lower rpms on a gas engine in comparison to a diesel engine.

A good lesson on torque from diesels:

http://www.bankspower.com/techarticl...So-Much-Torque

Here is a good lesson on torque vs. horsepower:

http://www.rvs.com/blog/gas-diesel-torque-horsepower/74

These should explain enough to understand the answer to your question.

I've been avidly following this discussion, as I have been cross shopping a GL350 against a GX460, LX570 and Landcruiser. I kind of narrowed it down to the GL350 and 14' GX460. Although I do love the LX and LC, I despise the gas mileage. The GL was very appealing for size and fuel mileage. I've owned MBs in the past. Not diesels, however several E-class V8s. I'm used to the usual german gremlins, and occasional air strut failure. Hearing about the DEF system is very disappointing.

Randy B

raysmd

I would not go for the GX460, it's towing capacity is only 6,500lbs.

Another thing to keep in mind is the max trailer tongue weight of each SUV/truck and it's max payload. Check the toyota website, click on Landcruiser, and do a detailed comparison. You can almost compare any SUV on the market. It'll give you the manufacture specifications of each SUV and compare it to the Landcruiser.

Interesting the max payload of the GL350 is nearly 1,700lbs while the LC is 1,300 lbs. Not sure why is less for the LC.

LC has Gross Combined Weight Rating 15,885 (weight of LC plus payload, occupants, and trailer)

For the GL, I can't find that info easily. should be on the door label, but it's not.

I would go for the LC, LX, or GL350. It always better to have reserve towing capacity than to tow something at your tow vehicle's max rating. i.e., the best tow vehicles are big 3/4 or 1 ton american pickups. i.e., chevy duramax, dodge cummins, or ford diesel. That out of the question for me, so I look for the SUV that can tow reasonably well.

Quadro

Not true at all. The engine which produces more HP will always be able to pull more. Deadstop or not (that's what torque coverters are for). The difference is gas engine will have to use more RPM to do so than diesel.

Randy B

Blasphemy with no offering of proof.

Read the links. HP is overrated for this discussion. Gas engines for person and cargo transport will not generate the HP or torque as quick as a diesel engine will. Thus the diesel pulls better. Let's not argue about race cars and trucks, and built specific instances. This is a discussion about commercially sold vehicles. Randy B Posted from ClubLexus.com App for Android

Quadro

An engine producing 100 lb-ft, spinning at 1RPM and connected to the wheels via 1:1 gearing will apply 100 lb-ft of torque to the wheels.

An engine producing 10 lb-ft, spinning at 100RPM and connected to the wheels via 100:1 gearing will apply 1000 lb-ft of torque at the wheels.

I hope it's clear why 1000 lb-ft at the wheels will be able to pull more than 100lb-ft? And I hope it's also clear why the second engine, while applying less torque at the crankshaft, can apply more torque at the wheels?

Quadro

And LX is 7000bls? Sounds like not big enough difference to matter?

raysmd

well, that's why the LX is a disappointment. It should be able to tow the same amount as the LC. Before the new government guidelines for tow limits, I think both the LC and LX had similar 8,500lb tow rating. One must also take into account, wheelbase and overall size of the tow vehicle. The GX is too small to tow a big load "safely." I'm sure it can tow anything, but safety is the key.

Quadro

I agree with the size of the GX... wheelbase probably being the biggest issue.

Randy B

Again, not on point. The gas engine on the LX does not produce the torque the diesel on the GL does at low rpms. You can talk gears all you want, it does not change the question Sanidel asked. The GL will pull better as it has better torque curve than the LX.

Randy B.


Posted from ClubLexus.com App for Android

Quadro

I was referencing to your quote "If you have more torque available at lower speeds, which diesels inherently do, you can pull heavier loads from a dead stop/start" which is false.

In fact, the link you provided never mentions that diesels can pull more -- because doing so will be simply not true. The link simply tells that diesels can archive higher power output at lower RPMs which is more suitable for towing. Now that is true.

SaniDel

We are going off the deep end!

I asked a simple question, which I quote above and will elaborate here ... can a 350 V-6 diesel in a unibody vehicle be better at towing than a 5.7 liter V-8 in a body-on-frame truck?

We know that diesels are ultimately better 'tow-ers' than gasoline engines. That's why tractor-trailer trucks, locomotives and ships have diesel engines ... and passenger cars, light trucks and most SUVs do not. We're comparing two SUV's that Ray considers equivalent candidates for his next vehicle.

The claim was made that the MB GL350 diesel tows better than the LX 570 ... can we prove it or refute it?
Regards,

SaniDel