angrypengu

I have been a Mercedes fan boy all my life, and a few months ago, I finally lost it and started looking elsewhere. The 2018 Audi A8 (is on its way out), the Genesis G90 5.0T and the LS500 were cars I was considering. I am an engineer at heart and while I am not an automotive journalist or expert, I did find a few things worth sharing. The below is a comparison of the LS vs the S class (And in some respect the Genesis G90)

1) Thank you to people on this board who wrote again and again to not judge a LS until one shows up in person.
I hated the 5LS when I first saw photos and was abhorred that Lexus botched the looks of this car. I thought the exterior and interior was absolutely hideous. I went in person today to the Lexus dealership and I left there floored with how much I loved the exterior and the interior.

2) Top on my mind was the efficacy of the massaging seats. The LS > Mercedes by a MILE. Holy crap the Mercedes massage system is pathetic. The Lexus one actually does a damn good job and this is coming from someone with a massive amount of chronic back ache. I was floored.

3) The ML system is amazing, but only if one uses a high fidelity source. FM as an example sounds terrible on the ML, but the opposite is the case for even silly sources like Spotify on Ultra High quality. I was - #BLOWNAWAY.

4) Here's where things get sad. I tested a few cars on the same track. (same road, same speed, relatively same time of day). At 145km/hr, the LS and the G90 5.0T and even my current car, a C class Mercedes (2012) measured 69db. A S550 measured 66/67db. That's a pretty substantial difference (DB is logarithmic). I was shocked the LS did so poorly given the amount of rubber used to seal off gaps and the amount of effort Lexus has purported to be putting into silencing these cars. The S class won, and seriously, a LS is the same noise as a Genesis G90T, or the same as my lowly C300? That's messed up, and probably due to the RFTs. Most of the noise I heard was from the tires/road and a G90T and a C300 both use traditional non run flat tires. The S class does use RFTs too.

5) The ride of the old LS (4LS) was awesome. Sure, maybe too floaty for some, but it was great. I read reviews indicating the 5LS rode too rough and I wanted to make up my own mind so I test drove it. It's not too rough by any measure, but the S class wins here, hands down, full stop.

So for me, the 5LS is still a contender because there is a price advantage, but the RFTs and I suspect the 20" rims is what let this car down. So in some ways, I walked away very happy with how the LS turned out for me with respect to hitting my priorities in my next car selection purchase, but in some basic ways (Ride/noise level), it let me down.

I hope this helps anyone, and pls be gentle. It's my first post.

dsc07

Thanks for the comments.

Try one without runflats and you'll find the ride and the quietness are vastly improved.

angrypengu

Thank you. How do you propose I do that though? Aren't all of these LSs running on rfts?

I'm fairly confident MB sells a compact spare rim. I know I have to buy it through a German store though as MB Canada doesn't carry it. Does Lexus do such a thing or if I get a spare rim it'll be the full sized one?

john341

Yes Lexus Does this overseas on some cars but it takes away the space in the trunk lol.

angrypengu

Perfect. Thank you, and obviously the same can happen on the S class as well. Any idea what the PN is for this compact spare rim for the LS?

In case anyone is wondering why I wrote off the Genesis G90 - it's a GREAT car, but it doesn't have massaging seats, so no go. The 2018 A8 - well, too late. And plus I am salivating a bit at the 2019 A8, but will I wait for that to come out first? I don't think so.

dsc07

Or you could just use the SOS button and take advantage of the free Roadside Assist that comes with the car...

angrypengu

Unfortunately this is not an option. I have a 800km radius for work related reasons that I occasionally cover. Getting stuck with a flat without a spare is not an option for me.

ibidu1

iTrader: (1)

When you compare Lexus to a Mercedes or a Hyundai some other major factors to consider like Depreciation, Cost of ownership, and most importantly imo Reliability. Mercedes C class and E classes are pretty reliable cars, but when you go to the S class they have there little quirks that are pretty annoying to deal with dropping a car off at the dealer. That being said to me the S class is more luxurious then the 5LS. I dont see it as a daily driven commuter. As far as resale the S does have demand and will sell quickly but it will lose its value more then a lexus.

The hyundai to me is ok looking, priced right and im sure it drives great but hyundai keeps changing the look of the gensesis. I wouldnt want to purchase something new and find a newer revamped model that has replaced my new vehicle in less then a year of owning the car. Also with hyundai the used car price drops when they revamp the design. Used car sales are pretty sluggish

The LS to me is still a new car, so I cant judge it like the others. We still dont know how reliable it is, the engine itself I believe is an older design from the GS350's which is very strong and reliable, but they added a turbo. Not sure how that will pan out with lexus, as they do not have many cars that are turbo. For depreciation look at the resale value of the 4LS, and reliability if the 5LS is anyway near it then I think we have a winner. For the noise you can switch to a nice set of michelin tires that should help soften the ride and make it quieter.

angrypengu

**As I peruse the CL forum here, I need to make one thing clear as it's strange to me how there is a group of people that want to poop on the 5LS, a group that loves it, and there is a bunch of mud slinging back and forth**. I have not made up my mind and I have no emotion towards any cars (prior to actually purchasing them - now after...yes, that's when I form an emotional connection). Right now, I am trying to be as bias free as possible.

So to answer your questions and comments with how I feel.

1) Yes, the LS will probably retain its value more, but that doesn't concern me as I tend to drive cars and own cars until such point that they are basically worth the same. My current car is 6.5 years now, and a similarly specced out Lexus ES is worth about the same at the moment. (which is basically zero). Depreciation is not a real concern to me.

2) The MB now actually costs less than the LEXUS vehicle to buy (after applying factory incentives), and that is IF Lexus will not give me the $10K discount they are giving cash buyers. If they will not give that to me, the MB will be cheaper to buy than the Lexus.

3) Assuming the LS is a super reliable car is a pretty bold assumption. Lexus has a great track record but as you mentioned, this is a new car. The S has been around since 2014 and is now a mid cycle refresh. Most MB mid cycle sedans (no experience with SUVs here) are pretty darn reliable. I've filed 3 warranty related claims on my car in 6.5 years, which is pretty damn good. The car just keeps on driving and driving and driving. That said, I always max out warranty coverage on my cars (from factory). So I bought the 7 year 160K warranty from MB, and I would continue doing that for the S class, and do whatever I can to max out warranty on the Lexus here as well. The cost differential between the two offerings at Lexus/MB is not that substantial, with the tip of the hat going to Lexus by about $2000, IIRC. That said, if this was a first year model S vs a Lexus, I'd buy the Lexus because while I would be covered under warranty, I hate wasting time at a dealer, and the only reason I'm looking at a 1st year model LS is because Lexus has a great reputation. That said at this point, mid cycle refresh S vs a Lexus and the S being a car that already has demonstrated great reliability (based on my extensive time spent on the W222 forum on Benzworld, or MBworld), I'll play the die and say that I do consider the S to be a pretty reliable vehicle at this point.

4) Several individuals, yourself included, have suggested that I ditch the RFTs in the Lexus in an effort to improve the ride and noise generated by the vehicle. Firstly, this is not a realistic thing to do, and even if I do this, I have to haul a spare tire in an already relatively small trunk, AND I have to go out of pocket to buy 4 new tires, and 1 new rim. AND - since I have found no threads discussing some sort of scientific measurement between before and after (say DB improvements), I'd be buying a LS based on the hopes that there is a meaningful improvement here, notwithstanding the fact the S class already is around 3db quieter and it too has RFTs, so heavens knows how that car gets even more quieter if/when I dump the RFTs.

5) The LS and the S would absolutely be my daily driver, and I would drive them both for at least 7 years, or until I run out of warranty. From there, I would make a decision to keep it or not based on reliability/track record and if I was bored and want a new car.

So on the face of it, if Lexus does not make the LS more attractive to buy from a price standpoint, then this is a done deal. I'm buying the S. If Lexus is more financially attractive, then I'll consider it. As I discussed in my OP, ride comfort/noise/seat massage functions are top of my list, and I am torn because some things the MB does better, and there are some things the LS does better.

In fact, there's a 4LS with 11,000KM on it that is on sale for $82K. Sure, it's used, and I would have bought that car by now, in a heartbeat, if only the 4LS had massaging seats, but alas, such a function did not exist for the front seats.

angrypengu

One other point to add here, MB vehicles are notoriously (in a good way) easy to maintain. For example, I have not bother going to the dealer for all of the usual maintenance items. The main thing that has cost me money that all of us have to spend money on is oil changes. On my MB, I do it myself. Oil filter is on the top, I have an adapter that plugs into my oil extractor, I extract the oil out of the dipstick, change the TOP MOUNTED oil filter, rings, and I'm good to go.

On the Lexus, I will not be able to do it myself without making a mess as the oil filter is (probably) on the bottom. None of this breaks the bank of course, but another datapoint here, and before anyone asks, yes, the oil filter remains at the top on the S class vehicle as well.

comotiger

Hi, you have made a compelling case for buying the 2018 S 450. You have solid rebuttals for the usual benefits of buying the LS over the S: Price, reliability, servicing. Everyone accepts that the MB is the technology leader and has imposing road presence, and a 2018 S450 would trump the LS500 in many ways. I didn't see you address the following two points.
1) Can you confirm that the 2018 S450 you are pricing would be similarly equipped to the LS500? For all the same features, I would have guessed the price differential would be far greater than the 10K that is driving your choice. And would it still have the V8?
2) The MB doesn't have the large HUD of the LS500. Many here love the HUD. Given the amount of driving you do, it may come in very handy.

Good luck with your decision!

angrypengu

Thank you @comotiger.

In an effort to be totally transparent and fair, I will be very precise both with what I am specced out and the price for the dealer (e.g. dealer cost). Otherwise it's impossible to compare the two cars as I don't know what margins both are working with.

1) S450, with the Premium package, HUD, Burmester 3D stereo. Price to dealer (CDN$): $100,358 <--this is inclusive of the $10,000 factory discount.
This is as closely specced to the Lexus LS as I can get, I believe, and is exactly what I would be buying. The S450 is a bi turbocharged V6, and I don't really care for the V8, and since we're trying to compare apples to apples, it's only fair I compare a S450 (V6) with a Lexus LS (V6), I suppose.

2) Lexus LS Luxury Package. Cost to dealer $103,345 (presuming the $10K off from factory does not apply to financing, which I don't believe it does. I will know later on today)

Note: Financing rates for both cars (MB loyalty discount included) is at 1.9%.

With respect to the HUD, I only care to know one thing in the HUD which based on my body size I struggle with in cars. - I need to know my speed as I'm a chronic speeder, and both give me that information and thus is all I need. (usually with cars, the digital speedometer reading on the instrument panel is blocked given the steering wheel position)

angrypengu

Well #'s are in.

At this point, dealer cost for the MB for me is $98,358 (with the executive car allowance discount), Lexus dealer cost (based on my interpretation on the email I just got), is $103,345 as financing doesn't allow me to take advantage of the $10K cash incentive, although the sales person is committed on getting a deal done. Time to make up my mind, I guess.

dsc07

As someone who was in the same boat as you 4 months ago, I say go with your gut on this and if both cars are within your means, take the money out of the equation for now. I'll be turning 10,000 miles on mine next week and I'm working on an in-depth review that I will post next weekend, but here's what I would say about a couple of your points.

If the massage seats are really that important to you, the LS wins hands down.

If the LS500 ride seems too harsh for you and you prefer the way the LS460 rides, ditch the run-flats. It makes a huge difference in ride smoothness and they are significantly quieter. I say this from experience, not speculation. I swapped mine out after 3,000 miles and couldn't be happier. I know you say you'd hate to pay for a new set of tires, so negotiate with the dealer and have them switch to conventional tires as part of the deal. I know you've said it's not practical, but think about it for a minute. Really? I've been driving nearly 1,000 miles per week for the last 20 years, and I've only ever had one flat and that was my fault for waiting too long to replace the tires. For the ride and noise improvement, I'm more than happy to play games on my phone for 30 minutes while I wait for a tow, on the off-chance that I get another flat. Of course, that's easy for me to say living in Southern California. I see you are in The Great White North, so you have winter weather to worry about, but still, how many flats have you had in the last 10 years? Anyway, something to think about.

Regarding reliability, at this point I think you have to assume that the LS will be more reliable than the S-Class, first year or no. I think you stated that you had only 3 warranty claims in 6.5 years on a Merc. That may be good in the Mercedes world, but that would be a letdown in the Lexus world. I put 264,000 miles on my 2010 LS 460L in 7.5 years with ZERO warranty claims. If you're worried because this is the first year of the LS, I put 130,000 miles on my '07 460, which was also a first year model, and also had ZERO warranty claims. (Not counting recalls. I think each car had 1 recall where Lexus automatically replaced a part during a normal service.)

So, my advice at this point is that since both cars are roughly the same price, give or take 2%, and both cars are top-shelf as far as quality goes, take each for another test drive and think of nothing but which car you'd rather drive every day for the next 5+ years and go with your gut. Good luck.

angrypengu

I appreciate your advice and you sharing the track record of your 4LS. That said, there are 3 4LS vehicles nearby (I am not even remotely considering buying a used LS because it doesn't have massaging seats), but just for fun I started to pull their service record (for the dealers that will give them to me). One such example is this vehicle right here:

http://wwwb.autotrader.ca/a/lexus/ls/richmond%20hill/ontario/5_40171705_on20080611094253231/?showcpo=ShowCpo&ncse=no&ursrc=hl&orup=7_15_41&pc=L1K%200X1&sprx=100

In fact, this is the vehicle that started to get me to scratch my head. "Legendary Lexus reliability" is top of my mind for me when it comes to Lexus's reputation. Click on the "CarProof View Report" - after I saw those service records I inquired.

This car has a persistent noise issue and vibration issue at high speeds and that's why the owner kept on going back and back and back. It was never solved so that's why the car is now listed.

I then wanted to see if this was an issue that others experienced - and there are indeed videos on Youtube of LS customers trying to resolve that issue. (these are late model 4LS's, not the early ones which I believe were prone to it).

^All of the above to say that when buying a car, it's still a *&#^ show when it comes to reliability predictions. Lexus, on average, are much more reliable than most cars, and certainly more reliable than Mercedes vehicles, but I'm not as confident as you when it comes to first year new model Lexus vehicles, because if the 4LS suffers from some interesting rust issues (I learned this on this board) and high speed vibration/noise issues, then I'm not so confident this new 5LS will be bulletproof.

At this point, the dealer I was at is willing to offer $20K off of any LS they have in their inventory, which is fantastic, except they don't have a car I want. I would seriously entertain the offer and start negotiating if I was sure the LS is the vehicle I want, but I just don't know. I wanted to see, tit for tat if the S class has the same noise/ride issues that I experienced in the LS500, so this is what I did.

The S450 I want to buy would come with 19" RFTs, and the LS has 20" RFTs. So - yesterday, I went to a MB dealer and drove a 2015 S550 with 20" RFTs. We're not even talking about the same order of comfort or noise here, the S was MUCH quieter and handled MUCH smoother than the LS, and both had exactly 20" rims.

Let me be blunt. I hate this. How is it this frustrating to drop 100K on a car? Between the Lexus's stupid grill/ride/noise and the MB's stupid seats (and on the S450 - staggered tires?! - wtf! | and not trolling, but I don't feel any warmth and I don't have any emotions towards the interior - it's bleh to me.), I'm pretty close to throwing in the towel. At this point, (I can't even believe I'm saying this), I might just wait for the 2019 Audi A8.

Oh - just so we're clear here. I drove a brand new 2018 Audi A8 4.0T yesterday as well - with 20" rims - you know, the car that everyone says has a "firm" ride when it comes to the big 3? I drove with a friend throughout all of this and we both agreed the A8 drove better than the LS.

Seriously - guys - that's just not right. I never managed to get it to the same speed as the LS, but at around 110km/hr, they registered exactly the same noise level on the decibel. I expected Audi to do worse here, given the car has been around since, what, 2011?

I apologize with the above - I re-read it and I can read my own frustration/anger, and none of that is directed at any of you. I'm just frustrated with this entire car buying process. The new A8 looks like a shoe in, but I suspect the reliability of the new A8 (with mild hybrid drive to boot) will be about as reliable as a 4 year old kid showing up to dinner on time.

My options now are:

1) Wait until the 2019 Audi A8 lands next month for a drive. ( ) -car looks great. Will it be reliable? Probably not.
2) Buy a 2018 LS500 and swap out the tires and hope/pray
3) Buy a S450 and just suffer. (tongue in cheek)
4) Buy a fully loaded E450 - comes out to $92K - which is about the same as the LS (I think I might just renege to this. Poison I know and all).
5) Screw it, keep on driving my car.

I can't honestly tell anyone which one of these 5 wins atm. I keep on going back and forth here in frustration.

I suppose most of my frustration is directed towards Lexus. Seriously - wtf were they thinking?!