riknchar

The point of my original post was (as Steve correctly states) to see what the forum members thought about how good a lease option I was being offered on the 2014 LS460, not a generic "is leasing smarter than buying?" post. I know opinions vary on that topic. For me, I absolutely know (from a strictly analytical standpoint) that Leasing CAN be better than buying in some/many cases. I understand that buyers can easily be "Fleeced" via both bad leases and bad purchases.

For my current situation with my 2008 LS600hL, I would have been better off by at least $5k today if I had leased the car 3 years ago for $730 a month (my current car payment) rather than buy it on a 72-month loan. If I had leased, I could turn the car back in today and walk away, vs. accepting the ~$5K in current negative equity I still have in the car. I know that taking out a 72-month payment plan on a 6-year old LS600hL would probably be frowned upon by most, but my justification was to keep my monthly payments down as far as possible, and since I had full CPO warranty coverage for the full 72 months, I figured why not? I was only paying 2.25% on the loan, and I've made WAY more than that on my investments the past 3 years, so keeping my payments as low as possible was smart.

I generally agree that blanket statements that all leases are "Fleeces" are factually incorrect, and can limit opportunities for great lease deals that do come along every so often.

SW17LS

And having every thread where we discuss leasing turn into this argument keeps us from being able to help people negotiate great leases if they choose to lease.

It's sort of like going to a food enthusiasts forum and when somebody posts about some great new recipe they're trying you post saying "you know what you're eating is really unhealthy"

rgs92

The leasing issue really depends on the economic conditions at the moment. If the markets are low, it pays to get a lease and hold on to your investments. It the markets are high, it pays to liquidate appreciated investments and purchase it with as much down payment as you can afford.
Also, low interest rates favor financing. So there is no right or wrong answer. And it also depends on your personal cost of capital.

caha14

This is such an awesome analogy!

rik, sorry the car sold, but I think you have the right attitude. You're one of the folks I called out by name when I got my 600 (you know, the list of people I blamed when my wife questioned my decision to get rid of the 460L for a 600), so FWIW, I should share I had a very similar thing happen when I began my search (at the time).

The first 600 I saw, while not as loaded as the one I currently own, was in excellent shape and priced very aggressively. Inexplicably, though, it had sat for 4 months. Well, wouldn't you know, after a week of going back-and-forth with the selling dealership, someone else snatched it! Two months later (with a couple lousy 600s I saw along the way, including one that is still for sale 3 years later), I found "the one" - a year older than the first one I checked out, but with less mileage and more options. Yes, it cost me a bit more, plus I got more for my 460L, and most importantly, it felt right.

On the lease front, I am yet to see compelling examples of L-Certified leases. It seems like favorable terms have popped up here and there, but any time I've looked, the picture hasn't been pretty (as you all have concluded from the terms you were initially offered).

More broadly (and forgive me... I can't help to say a bit on leases, as I've leased in the past and built my own spreadsheet about 20 years ago, LOL!), leases come down to the terms (residual and money factor) and your own needs/tax situation.

As a first-order approximation, if you buy and finance a car you intend to unload in three years (instead of leasing for 3 years), the hope is that the car will be worth (at the end of the term) no less than the residual on a lease would be. Conversely, if the vehicle is expected to depreciate more in reality (vis-a-vis the lease residual), then the lease might work better as you can turn it in when done and let the leasing company deal with the additional depreciation (which you didn't "pay for" over the course of the term). Of course, finance charges (interest or rental), taxes and mileage (which contributes to the residual/depreciation) all impact the calculation further, but my main point is that the notion that "you pay for a lease and have nothing at the end" is pretty simplistic (even though it can be true under lousy lease contract terms).

riknchar

CAHA, Thanks for your thoughts! It's kind of funny that I was one of the people who helped talk you into stepping up into the LS600... Especially since I'm now thinking about stepping back down from the LS600 to the LS460L. My thoughts in this process are to try to better ensure long-term reliability and to get some of the modern niceties of the 2013+ LSs (blind-spot monitoring, streaming audio, etc.). My 2008 LS600 has been very reliable so far (3 years and 23K miles later). I've had an O2 sensor failure (covered under warranty), and that's about it. I'm at 81K miles now. I know eventually I'll have an air ride shock or two fail, and the hybrid batteries remain a wild card. Lots to consider...

rgs92

And while there are some differences between which used or CPO expensive car to buy, this is marginal vs. buying new. I tried getting a new 2016-17 LS460 AWD (SWB), but I couldn't get any dealer to go much below the high $60Ks.
Maybe if I had one shipped from across the country or traveled I could have done better, but I didn't go that route.
I would kind of feel bad if I spent $70K, drove around for a year or so, and found my ride was worth $42,000. And you save on sales tax and even insurance I have found.
(It's different with a regular Accord/Camry, where it may drop $5000, which is OK, even though percentage-wise it's similar.)
And I feel good that I have a Lexus warranty out to the year 2025 (about $3200).

satiger

iTrader: (1)

I was on business travel for past several days and just seeing this thread.

riknchar, I guess you and I share similar expectations when it comes to 'loaded' cars!. Also, do occasional browsing at cars.com, cargurus etc to see if I could find loaded (minus exe seat) 2013+ L model with light interior. These are indeed very rare as I have mentioned few times in other threads. I really love to have BSM, its a real pain to turn head 140 deg to cover blind spot on L base car!. Another feature I always wanted to lane dep assist.

Few weeks back I got a 2016 ES as a loaner during my service visit. It was loaded with radar, lane dep assist etc. So, for the first time I tried lane dep assit for about 100 miles drive. Quite frankly I wasn't that impressed with the feature. When ever I take off the hand, car would eventually swerves to one side, lane dep assist kicks in, turn the wheel so much as car would head to other side of the lane!. Then another kick to other side, in the mean time warning signs and alarms goes off alerting driver to hold the steering wheel!!!!. Well, that may be the intention of lane dep assist. At least I was hoping it would manage to keep the car at the center of the lane. May be in 2018+ models....

Radar cruise in 2016 works bit better than my 2012 model. Slow downs and pick ups are very smooth (controlled) vs get closer at full speed and then try to slow down faster etc.

Based on this experience, I decided to wait for 2018+ models hoping better technology integration.

For BSM, I am looking into Brand Motion radar base (like factory) BSM ; http://www.brandmotion.com/360-visio...rdbs-1400.html . Installed cost from one their installer is $800. I will keep you all posted on that........

caha14

I totally hear you. I love the 2013+ updates to the LS, and having experienced the updated technology (BSM, NAV, etc.) on plenty of RX loaners and now on our new LX, I've developed a strong appreciation for it. Also, all the discussions around potential hybrid-related issues do resonate, for sure, so no argument at all on the reliability front.

FWIW, I personally haven't seriously thought of getting out of my car (16k miles), but whenever I remotely think of it and I get back into the driver's seat, the "pull" makes me stay put. Like I always say, the 460 is no slouch, but man... Of course, I could try to find a 2013+ 600, but I'd lose my LCD gauge cluster and also encounter the same reliability considerations, so what would be the point?!

I wish you well with your search. Sounds like you've found a couple more options (Flaxen... love it too!).

This is cool; thank you for sharing. Please update us on how it turns out!