mcat

Hey Gang,
My 99 LS is at 180K and runs great except a bit of a PSP growl in the cold and I’m now due for TB WP replacement. My wife wants me to get a newer LS but I love this car. I'm getting closer to retirement and I'm penny pinching more than I need to so I'm looking for a deal. Part of the fun of looking, I guess. I’m second owner and I’ve put about 70K onLS400 in 8 years. I also have an ’05 Tundra for winter and I ride motorcycles a lot in spring. I’ve driven 1 ’09 LS460 AWD and felt it didn’t ride as quiet and as smooth as my ’99. The motor noise seemed louder. It was a CARMAX car so I'm not convinced this car was all that great. It had 89K and they were asking $25K and change. There are not a lot of LS460s around here for sale unless it’s a dealer. There's a couple of really good dealers here but they're high. I am looking on Car Gurus so I'm willing to travel for a buy. I prefer an AWD since I live in Nebraska and might give up the Tundra if I found an AWD LS460. Are AWDs louder as far as drive train noise?

In any case I had a few questions:

Are the stereos in the newer ones as good as the Nakamichis?

Are the AWDs a little nosier than the RWDs?

Is the paint tougher on the newer models? Seems as though my ’99 chips pretty easy.

I know about the control arm problems, what is the date on the upgrade for the 2010s?

Air-ride or not air-ride?

What trim/lux packages are best?

What can I expect tp pay for a 2010-11?



Thanks,
Mcat

Junglequac

Hello,
As I had the Nakamich system in my LX470, I can tell you with confidence that the 460's Mark Levinson system is superior. I did not feel this way about the Mark Levinson system in my LS430. This will most be noticed with CD's and DVD-Audio and regular DVD music discs. Source material really brings out the sound quality of the system.

My 460 does not have the air ride, but my 470 did and I had zero issues, that said, a number of people have needed air shocks replaced so if budget is a huge concern, might want to go with the conventional suspension.

My guess is that the paint will come out a wash as a number of years ago, government regulations mandated that they change the formulation in the paints used in the automotive sector and I am almost positive that this came after your LS. That said, I believe 2010 forward, the 460's now have self healing clear coat paint. How that works I am not sure.

As for road noise, as the former owner of an Ultra Luxury 430 that even had double laminated side glass, I really have not noticed a difference. That said, I have probably attended 300 plus live concerts so my hearing might not be attuned as others around here.

As for trim packages, I would definitely want the nav and Mark Levinson system and the parking sensors. Not a big fan of radar guided cruise in the 2 other cars I owned that had it (LS430/Infiniti M45) as they both left way to big of a hole for cars to cut you off. While my 460 does not have it, the professional reviews I have read seem to indicate that nothing has really changed.

If you plan to have many rear seat passengers, that is when I would be more concerned with some of the top tier packages as many address making the back seat the throne. This is a byproduct of the Asian markets where having a driver is exceedingly common whereas even the very wealthy here tend to drive their own cars/

As I have a RWD 460, I cannot speak to the difference in noise. It stands to reason that an AWD setup with a Torsen differential might create more drivetrain noise. I would suggest driving both to see if you notice a difference.

One thing is for sure you really are considering two quite different cars in terms of technology as the 460 represented something of a clean slate whereas a 1999 LS400 was almost at the end of the line. Certainly will have far more advanced traction control and much better headlights in the 460. That said, would not be shocked if there was a retrofit kit for HID's in the 400.
Either way, both great cars!
Best.
JQ

Stereorob

okay. personally I think the old Nakamichi system flat out blows the pants off the ML system up till the current gen 460.

the AWD models do handle a bit different than the traditional RWD models but I think youll like it.

I haven't seen too many paint failures on the LS460s yet, even the early ones. paint has improved

every car has its unique problems as they age. the LS400 with its notorious power steering pump leaks and the hood struts that never work, flickering gauges , the impossible to get to starter and ECU issues.

the 460 its the control arms and the brake actuator, but its like apples vs oranges. the 460 is absolutely nothing like the 400 in any way shape or form. its got about 50x the electronics inside them and everything has a separate computer. the 460 is a little harder to DIY/shade tree and parts are a bit more expensive. however some of the things that sucked about the 400 the 460 corrected. for example, no more timing belts. 460 uses chains. its got electric power steering so no more leaks! oh and the starter is in a much less brutal place to get to, thank god.

stay away from the air suspension. just... stay away. and that's on any LS of any year.

the 460 has more package options. the LWB model is absolutely gigantic. youll have all the cool stuff like BT audio, voice navi, backup camera, BSM etc.. plus you got the executive package cars that are rare as hens teeth, but they exist.

the LS400 has the old school Toyota feel. they wont ever build them like that again. the 460 is just as solid but its a different feeling riding driving and handling car. I will say that the reliability hasn't changed. I work in the service dept of a dealership so I get to see these cars at there best, as well as there worse. I know the 460 can take as much abuse and neglect as a 400, ive seen a few that were in absolutely **** poor condition still running fine, as well as many high mile examples. I have not seen many catastrophic failures on 460s, its very rare, but when something big goes its pretty ugly. but its the same way with the 400.

I myself am a LS400 driver. I have a 95 and ill have to be dragged kicking and screaming away from it when the time comes. ive never been in love with the 430 so im going to be making the jump myself to the 460 soon myself. everyone is pushing me to get a newer one. friends family co-workers you name it. I am actively looking for a 07-09 LWB model with the executive package, but they are so rare ill be looking for awhile cause im hell bent on that exact style. plus my LS400 is 22 going on 23 years old so I know its only a matter of time before something terrible goes on it.

good luck and let us know what you come up with! hope this helps.

SW17LS

I've not owned a car that had a stereo as good as the Nakamichi in my 98 LS400. My LS430 has ML, and it wasn't nearly as good. My LS460 does not have ML, and I have limited seat time in one that does so I would yield that opinion to somebody who does.

No, no difference at all.

The answer is a little bit. The LS460 has paint that is much nicer and more robust than what I have had in my previous Lexus vehicles including the LS400 and LS430. The paint on my ESs and my GS was more similar to what was on my LS400 and LS430. The 460 has a hand sanded body and the paint is VERY nice, seems thicker and less prone to chipping. They still chip easily though, mine has a full front end clear bra on it.

I find they ride very similarly, so I would say no for reliability reasons.

Your LS400 will be quieter at idle and on acceleration. The 460 has a timing chain vs a timing belt, and they are direct injection both of which contribute to more engine noise. As for ride comfort, I'm long removed from my LS400, but remember the 400 rides on 16" wheels with 60 series tires which have a huge sidewall. The factory fill pressure is also 29 PSI which is quite low by todays standards (the fill pressure on the LS460 is 33PSI on already much lower profile tires). The 460 runs on 18s with 50 series tires or 19s with 45 series tires, so you would feel some jolts with road irregularities in the 460 you may not feel in your 400 for that reason. I would recommend avoiding cars with the 19s, and running 30PSI in your tires to get the ride as close to the 400 as you can.

Best I can describe it is I could basically run over anything in the LS400 and it would feel like I ran over a creamy pillow. In the LS460 you can find sharp jolts and ruts where it feels harder. Reducing tire pressure and running excellent riding tires has helped with that dramatically from the OEM rubber at 33PSI. You'll find the LS460 feels significantly nimbler and handles better than your 460.

Its a great car, worthy upgrade to your LS400.

roadfrog

I've never heard the Nakamichi's but from everything I've read, the ML blows it away. I have never heard a better sound system than the ML. It is so good, that it has won many reviews of the worlds best factory car audio systems, inc B&O, Wilkens, etc etc.

Depending on the year and color, I believe the paint is softer. My Obsidian paint is VERY soft.

Kennyr44

If you own and love a LS400 or LS430 and swap it out for a LS460 you will never look back and think you made a mistake. The LS460 is a way nicer car in every way. No question period. The previous LS's are great cars but the LS460 is something to be passionate about. The look and the feel and 385 HP. 400 and 430 people have no idea what they are missing out on. I'm tired of hearing how they are driving the greatest cars in the world. They need to wake up and do what I did and upgrade to a way more satisfying ride. Time to trade in those flip phones.

FatherTo1

Sorry, Kenny, I'm still not ready to sing the praises of the 460 yet. I am shopping for a 460L to replace our 06 430 but I have seriously not been impressed by the two 08s and an 07 that I test drove. Perhaps they were all just bad examples or poorly maintained because they were all quite annoyingly loud during normal acceleration and idle. Too much vibration in the steering wheel too across all three (RWD and not AWD). After each test drive I was so confused because stepping back into my 430 immediately felt better -- a smoother, quieter, more refined experience. The 460 felt more powerful than the 430 but not by as much as I had hoped or anticipated.

Maybe I just haven't sat in a quality 460 yet. I did test drive a 2011 a month or two ago and actually didn't find that one too loud. The 07 and 08s I drove definitely were not as quiet as the 2011 (talking about engine noise, not wind noise). The 2011 example also shifted better and was smoother in overall operation. I don't know if all 2010-2012 MY drive better than 2007-2009 MY. The 07 and 08s I test drove had all the recalls performed (idler pulleys, valve spring/lash adjustment, fuel pressure sensor and pipe). Right now, I am having second thoughts about going to a 460L.

I love the 460 styling, inside and out, but only 1-in-4 460 test drives has even come close to the smoothness of my 430. I see so many 07s and 08s for sale, not so many 2010+. Perhaps the 2010+ really are better and hard to give up.

riknchar

FatherTo1: Have you considered an LS600hL? If you are after an eerily smooth and quiet ride, I think you'll find the 600 to fit the bill quite a bit more than a 460L. I know the LS600hLs have been taking heat on this forum over the past year for a "high profile" (CJITTY) hybrid battery failure right after the warranty expired, but the prices for the LS600s have really dropped, and I believe they offer an excellent value right now.

With the LS600hL, you get virtually all the available options of a 460L, plus a bit larger engine (5.0L), a beautiful leather stitched dash (not available in the 460L), and roughly 30-40% better in-town fuel economy. The LS600hL is quite a bit heavier than the 460L, which some consider a downside, but I consider a plus; the added weight seems to make the car even more substantial and better planted than the 460L, and the extra power on the LS600 makes the car equally quick (but way quieter and more refined at full throttle).

There is a risk of eventual hybrid battery replacement at a cost of $4-5K (and dropping), and I think all of the LS600hLs have the air ride suspension (potential higher cost to replace when they eventually fail), so you'd have to factor those issues into your financial decision.

When new, the price premium for the LS600hL is laughable ($30-40k), but becomes much smaller (maybe $5-10K) in the used models, which makes the used LS600hLs a great value, in my mind.

FatherTo1

Thank you, riknchar. I did reach out to a 600 seller yesterday. The seller is about an hour from me but I haven't heard back from the seller yet. It is a 2009 600 with 95k, iirc. I am very curious about the quietness of the hybrid drivetrain and smoothness of the CVT. However, I don't know if we can cope with the severely reduced trunk space...but 2009 was supposed to have a larger trunk. Still, I want to keep an open mind and experience a 600 for myself to see if the plusses outweigh minuses.

SW17LS

Remember, I've owned all 3.

The engine idle sound and feel and the acceleration sound and feel is never going to be as smooth and refined in the 460, it's just the nature of that engine vs those engines. However, the later the model 460 the smoother it is, and once you're no longer comparing it directly to the 430 every time you drive it it won't stick out to you as much.

The timing chain and the direct injection give you much less maintenance over time, and more power and efficiency but the tradeoff is they sound a little brasher.

Kennyr44

If the quieter ride in a LS430 is what you want then so be it. All I know is I spent 15 years in my LS400 and numerous hours in my buddy's perfect low miles 2005 LS430. The LS430 didn't excite me to buy one and finally when I bought my LS460 I knew it was heaven on wheels. Never a regret for 1 second. By the way my friend sold his LS430 and loves riding in my 07. He says he never would have sold if his was a LS460. By the way my wife hated my LS400 and didn't like the 430 either. She insists we ride in my LS460 anytime we go out together.

SW17LS

My Dad drove the LS400 and the LS430, my mother never cared for them because they were so stodgy. She loves my LS460, when I took her out in it after I first got it she couldn't believe it was the same model. The feel of the car is different in that way, it feels younger, more interesting even though its really not lol.

Bottom line is, the LS430s are really old...but...an 07 LS460 is pretty darn old too at this point, and you don't get a ton of additional more modern features and tech in the 07-09 460. If you're going to move from a 06 430 to an 07 460 with similar mileage, you're getting better styling and all but outside of that I don't know that its that considerable an upgrade if you're still happy with your 430. If I were you Father to1, I would look to a 2010+ LS460 to at least get the modern suite of electronics, BT audio streaming, enform, nav with traffic.

Think about it when they were new, would you trade a year old LS430 in on a brand new LS460? Even if I liked the LS460 better I wouldn't. All new LS this year, am I going to run out and take a total bath in depreciation to trade my LS460 in on one even if I love it? No, I'm not. Depending on what they cost I might buy my LS460 out of the lease and keep it. Just because the new model is better doesn't mean your older model is bad.

To the OP who has a 99 LS400 with 180k miles that is another matter. Whenever you feel the engine is not quite as smooth, remember that at 180k miles your LS400 is ready for its second $1,000 timing belt replacement (which is what it costs roughly to replace control arms) the LS460 never needs such a job done, and the LS460 is 100HP more while delivering the same fuel economy. The additional sound is the sound of technology. That timing belt repair is a big consideration if you're going to keep a car for a long time, my 03 ES300 is still in the family, I did the timing belt on it at 90k miles, and sold it to my aunt at about 160k miles in 2010. She just had a bunch of work done to it including the TB at 185k, but it was a struggle for her to decide whether it was worth it to do that, go on risking catastrophic engine failure or trade the car, because the cost of the work was a significant % of the car's value. It sucks to have to make that determination because of a maintenance item on an otherwise good running car. A repair is one thing.

On new Lexus engines you never have that concern.

FatherTo1

Kenny/Steve, it was not my intent to sully the 460 and turn this into another 430 vs 460 thread. I am still searching for a 460L for a reason. I immensely prefer the 460 styling over the 430. The 460 shape is still modern to me. I just haven't come across what I consider to be a good example. Despite DI, less insulation, and timing chain, I still expect the 460 to be relatively quiet. It's not just a matter of the 430 being more quiet, the 460s I have test drove must really have some engine or tranny issues (despite clean service records and reports from both Carfax and Autocheck). The acceleration is raucous and clangy. This is just normal acceleration, not wide open throttle. It just doesn't sound right and I can't imagine this is the standard when the car was new and competing against other makes and models. Then again, I also find the new RX raucous and loud during the first few gear changes.

Interestingly, the 2011 I test drove was the epitome of smooth and I did not find it substantially louder than the 430. Like Steve mentioned, I made need to focus on the laterlater years. Aside from the 2011, I don't think I have driven a proper 07 or 08. I do like how the 2009 introduced passenger seat memory. I was primarily looking at 07 and 08 for budgetary reasons but based on what I've seen so far, I may wait for a 2010+. I really liked the 2011 I sat in (except for all the cracks and wrinkles in the leather) but definitely have not been impressed with the 07 and 08s I sampled so far.

SW17LS

No worries. You're in the middle of a real purchase decision and there are differences between these cars. As long as the trolls stay out of these threads I don't see an issue with discussing those differences to help people like you decide about a purchase.

Yeah that doesn't sound right at all. I might suggest you go test drive a new LS460, that way you'll have a baseline from which to judge used examples by.

I never shopped for used LS460s but I did shop for used LS430s, and I recall a wide variety of feels, engine feels, ride feels, based on how individual vehicles had been used and cared for. I remember driving one 3 year old or so LS430 that had a serious side to side suspension issue, like it was missing a tie rod end or something.

I really think you should focus on later years, you'll get more mileage out of the trade that way (meaning you'll get more in terms of features your LS430 doesn't have).

Doublebase

For reliability the LS460 is tough to beat, you'll have to "worry" about the control arms and that's about it. And if the control arms need replacement to take it to an independent and have your entire front end replaced for around $1,200. You can't beat that.

I've become a pretty big fan of these cars...I was a bit skeptical at first, but I've jumped aboard after driving one for the past three years.

I'm an ASE master Tech, I teach automotive and I run a rather large facility. Trust me when I say that there isn't a lot of cars put together like this one. If there were I'd be out of business. And these things aren't that hard to work on...I literally had a 16 year old kid replace my wheel bearing...he did it in 20 minutes. I'm not kidding - the thing was replaced in 20 minutes. I asked him...any problems? You torque everything? How did you do it that fast? Of course I checked everything after, but it was that easy for him. Now if this car had been an Audi A6??? We'd still be there wondering why Audi developed a bolt that required an eight point socket, with unicorn dust sprinkled on it, to remove it.