Carfax and Autocheck: what I just learned
01-10-16, 05:09 AM
#1
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Carfax and Autocheck: what I just learned
I haven't purchased a used car in a while, but my friend is going through a nightmare trying to sell his "certified pre-owned" BMW, which, when purchased, showed nothing on Carfax and now, four years later, shows a "major" accident. Unfortunately, he has little recourse now and even the Carfax guarantee is utterly useless (read the fine print). No one will touch his car, unfortunately.
I'm familiar with Carfax just because I did my own carfax when I traded in my car and it showed all dealer-repaired items.
He did a lot of research and found out some information that I didn't know about but is useful to know.
1. Carfax has access to almost all state DMV records (public information). What this means that if you are in an accident and must file a report with your state DMV, chances are Carfax will get it, although it can take many months for them to pull it. In the State of California, for example, any accident that involves injury (regardless of damage) or damage in excess of $750 must be reported on an SR1 form. Well, guess what, Carfax or Autocheck can access that information, albeit delayed.
2. A lot of body shops report, either willingly or unwillingly. The unwillingly part is rather interesting. These shops often use sales and tracking software purchased from a third-party software company. Well, there's often fine print in any contract signed with the sales of this software that allows the software maker to use that data and/or resell it and resell it they do. Most shop-owners rarely read that crap and every time they enter information into their system, that data is being logged, mined and sold to Carfax and/or Autocheck.
What this means is that even if you don't file an insurance claim and get your car fixed out of pocket it STILL MIGHT SHOW UP ON CARFAX by the body shop. So if you need your car repaired, you can ask the body shop if they report and even if they say no, you never know as they may not even know.
3. Most insurance companies DO NOT REPORT to Carfax, unless the vehicle is totaled or stolen. Some do, however, but you should read the privacy statement of your policy to determine the extent of information shared by them. Most don't simply because it can cause liability with them, but that is not to say they don't.
4. Most police reports are considered public information and hence is accessible by Carfax and Autocheck.
5. There is often a significant delay in between filing paperwork with any of the above and when Carfax can get it. No idea on how often Carfax data mines and/or when an agency might upload, but in some cases it can be many months or even years after the fact.
6. Even with all of the reporting that is potentially done, a lot in fact doesn't get reported. Body shops still stuck in the age of analog cash registers and paper filing will most likely never report a thing. Or body shops that have discovered that reporting is driving away their business, may have that part of the contract pulled out before they buy any software or just simply opt-out. Paperwork gets lost at the DMV. I mean, it's the DMV, so who knows. This is a blessing and a curse, depending on if you want to buy or sell that car.
In any case, Carfax and Autocheck are utterly useless when buying a car in my opinion, but can absolutely destroy the ability to sell and trade in a car.
So, there you have it. Next time someone taps your bumper in the parking lot think long and hard what and how you want to handle it if you plan on selling that car later. Also, if you buy a car, pay the money and get a third-party mechanic to look at it. Paint thickness guns, put it on a lift and see if there's over spray or paint that doesn't match and always remember, buyer beware.
I'm familiar with Carfax just because I did my own carfax when I traded in my car and it showed all dealer-repaired items.
He did a lot of research and found out some information that I didn't know about but is useful to know.
1. Carfax has access to almost all state DMV records (public information). What this means that if you are in an accident and must file a report with your state DMV, chances are Carfax will get it, although it can take many months for them to pull it. In the State of California, for example, any accident that involves injury (regardless of damage) or damage in excess of $750 must be reported on an SR1 form. Well, guess what, Carfax or Autocheck can access that information, albeit delayed.
2. A lot of body shops report, either willingly or unwillingly. The unwillingly part is rather interesting. These shops often use sales and tracking software purchased from a third-party software company. Well, there's often fine print in any contract signed with the sales of this software that allows the software maker to use that data and/or resell it and resell it they do. Most shop-owners rarely read that crap and every time they enter information into their system, that data is being logged, mined and sold to Carfax and/or Autocheck.
What this means is that even if you don't file an insurance claim and get your car fixed out of pocket it STILL MIGHT SHOW UP ON CARFAX by the body shop. So if you need your car repaired, you can ask the body shop if they report and even if they say no, you never know as they may not even know.
3. Most insurance companies DO NOT REPORT to Carfax, unless the vehicle is totaled or stolen. Some do, however, but you should read the privacy statement of your policy to determine the extent of information shared by them. Most don't simply because it can cause liability with them, but that is not to say they don't.
4. Most police reports are considered public information and hence is accessible by Carfax and Autocheck.
5. There is often a significant delay in between filing paperwork with any of the above and when Carfax can get it. No idea on how often Carfax data mines and/or when an agency might upload, but in some cases it can be many months or even years after the fact.
6. Even with all of the reporting that is potentially done, a lot in fact doesn't get reported. Body shops still stuck in the age of analog cash registers and paper filing will most likely never report a thing. Or body shops that have discovered that reporting is driving away their business, may have that part of the contract pulled out before they buy any software or just simply opt-out. Paperwork gets lost at the DMV. I mean, it's the DMV, so who knows. This is a blessing and a curse, depending on if you want to buy or sell that car.
In any case, Carfax and Autocheck are utterly useless when buying a car in my opinion, but can absolutely destroy the ability to sell and trade in a car.
So, there you have it. Next time someone taps your bumper in the parking lot think long and hard what and how you want to handle it if you plan on selling that car later. Also, if you buy a car, pay the money and get a third-party mechanic to look at it. Paint thickness guns, put it on a lift and see if there's over spray or paint that doesn't match and always remember, buyer beware.
01-10-16, 06:19 PM
#3
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Yeah he already did.
He told me that his attorney said that cars in California are sold "as-is."
The only recourse he may have is if he could prove that the dealer said it was not in an accident, which he never even asked as how could a "certified" car be one that was in an accident.
That's it. Misrepresentation (if the dealer knew it was in an accident and said otherwise), which he can't prove. He's really in a bind unfortunately.
So my suggestion for prospective used car buyers is to ask the dealer if it's been in an accident and try to get it in writing. Although I doubt they will willingly do that as they have that "as-is" part of California's vehicle law.
Which circles back to how lame Carfax is due to delays in reporting. I mean the dealer, in good faith, might not have even known it was in an accident.
He told me that his attorney said that cars in California are sold "as-is."
The only recourse he may have is if he could prove that the dealer said it was not in an accident, which he never even asked as how could a "certified" car be one that was in an accident.
That's it. Misrepresentation (if the dealer knew it was in an accident and said otherwise), which he can't prove. He's really in a bind unfortunately.
So my suggestion for prospective used car buyers is to ask the dealer if it's been in an accident and try to get it in writing. Although I doubt they will willingly do that as they have that "as-is" part of California's vehicle law.
Which circles back to how lame Carfax is due to delays in reporting. I mean the dealer, in good faith, might not have even known it was in an accident.
01-10-16, 07:37 PM
#4
Advanced
On my search for a CPO LS, I saw a few LS's that had panel repairs done to them and they all had a clean car fax.
Buyer beware...... Show up in person and look at the car in good light to see if there was any body work done. (EG: Orange peel on different areas of the car, wavy panel areas, overspray, etc.) Most good dealers use a paint meter PRIOR to "keeping" the car for a CPO sale and if repaint has been spotted they send it to auction instead of selling it as a CPO....... A good body shop that does excellent work can do repairs that are very hard to detect without pulling off door panels, inner fender wells, etc. and that why a paint meter is a "must have tool" for detecting body repairs.
When you sell or trade in a car to a dealer in NJ they have you sign a "statement" that the car was not in any accidents....... Could your friend or dealer "go after" the prior owner for a false statement?
Buyer beware...... Show up in person and look at the car in good light to see if there was any body work done. (EG: Orange peel on different areas of the car, wavy panel areas, overspray, etc.) Most good dealers use a paint meter PRIOR to "keeping" the car for a CPO sale and if repaint has been spotted they send it to auction instead of selling it as a CPO....... A good body shop that does excellent work can do repairs that are very hard to detect without pulling off door panels, inner fender wells, etc. and that why a paint meter is a "must have tool" for detecting body repairs.
When you sell or trade in a car to a dealer in NJ they have you sign a "statement" that the car was not in any accidents....... Could your friend or dealer "go after" the prior owner for a false statement?
Last edited by Chuckinnj; 01-10-16 at 07:41 PM.
01-10-16, 11:05 PM
#5
Lexus Test Driver
On my search for a CPO LS, I saw a few LS's that had panel repairs done to them and they all had a clean car fax.
Buyer beware...... Show up in person and look at the car in good light to see if there was any body work done. (EG: Orange peel on different areas of the car, wavy panel areas, overspray, etc.) Most good dealers use a paint meter PRIOR to "keeping" the car for a CPO sale and if repaint has been spotted they send it to auction instead of selling it as a CPO....... A good body shop that does excellent work can do repairs that are very hard to detect without pulling off door panels, inner fender wells, etc. and that why a paint meter is a "must have tool" for detecting body repairs.
When you sell or trade in a car to a dealer in NJ they have you sign a "statement" that the car was not in any accidents....... Could your friend or dealer "go after" the prior owner for a false statement?
Buyer beware...... Show up in person and look at the car in good light to see if there was any body work done. (EG: Orange peel on different areas of the car, wavy panel areas, overspray, etc.) Most good dealers use a paint meter PRIOR to "keeping" the car for a CPO sale and if repaint has been spotted they send it to auction instead of selling it as a CPO....... A good body shop that does excellent work can do repairs that are very hard to detect without pulling off door panels, inner fender wells, etc. and that why a paint meter is a "must have tool" for detecting body repairs.
When you sell or trade in a car to a dealer in NJ they have you sign a "statement" that the car was not in any accidents....... Could your friend or dealer "go after" the prior owner for a false statement?
01-11-16, 06:57 AM
#6
Carfax is very carful in how they word their guarantees too. They state something along the lines of, no accidents or damage reported. So if it wasn't reported at the time of sale, they won't consider themselves liable. A quick look over the car by a trained eye and as someone mentioned, a paint meter, are the best tools to protect yourself against buying a car that has been damaged. Take it to a body shop for a pre purchase inspection if need be.
01-11-16, 01:21 PM
#7
I haven't purchased a used car in a while, but my friend is going through a nightmare trying to sell his "certified pre-owned" BMW, which, when purchased, showed nothing on Carfax and now, four years later, shows a "major" accident. Unfortunately, he has little recourse now and even the Carfax guarantee is utterly useless (read the fine print). No one will touch his car, unfortunately.
He did a lot of research and found out some information that I didn't know about but is useful to know.
2. A lot of body shops report, either willingly or unwillingly. The unwillingly part is rather interesting. These shops often use sales and tracking software purchased from a third-party software company. Well, there's often fine print in any contract signed with the sales of this software that allows the software maker to use that data and/or resell it and resell it they do. Most shop-owners rarely read that crap and every time they enter information into their system, that data is being logged, mined and sold to Carfax and/or Autocheck.
What this means is that even if you don't file an insurance claim and get your car fixed out of pocket it STILL MIGHT SHOW UP ON CARFAX by the body shop. So if you need your car repaired, you can ask the body shop if they report and even if they say no, you never know as they may not even know.
He did a lot of research and found out some information that I didn't know about but is useful to know.
2. A lot of body shops report, either willingly or unwillingly. The unwillingly part is rather interesting. These shops often use sales and tracking software purchased from a third-party software company. Well, there's often fine print in any contract signed with the sales of this software that allows the software maker to use that data and/or resell it and resell it they do. Most shop-owners rarely read that crap and every time they enter information into their system, that data is being logged, mined and sold to Carfax and/or Autocheck.
What this means is that even if you don't file an insurance claim and get your car fixed out of pocket it STILL MIGHT SHOW UP ON CARFAX by the body shop. So if you need your car repaired, you can ask the body shop if they report and even if they say no, you never know as they may not even know.
So, there you have it. Next time someone taps your bumper in the parking lot think long and hard what and how you want to handle it if you plan on selling that car later. Also, if you buy a car, pay the money and get a third-party mechanic to look at it. Paint thickness guns, put it on a lift and see if there's over spray or paint that doesn't match and always remember, buyer beware.
Now, all that being said, the situation your friend is in really sucks. He was clearly taken advantage of either by the original owner or the seller. I am surprised that in California you can sell a car "as is" without having a salvage title. I thought that state was so pro consumer.
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01-11-16, 01:28 PM
#8
Lexus Champion
I've known these facts for awhile and I do not put a lot of faith in CarFax.
couple of other things to consider with carfax:
all dealers (at least in my experience) report to carfax, even if you go in for something simple like tire pressure adjustment or an oil change. If the dealer writes a Work Order for your car, you can bet it will show up on carfax.
OnStar and Sirius Connected Services (not Sirius Radio, but the Safety Connect Service found in Acura, BMW, Honda, Hyundai, Infiniti, Jaguar, Land Rover, Lexus, Nissan, Subaru, and Toyota) also report mileage to carfax quarterly.
State Farm pulls from Carfax for their Drive Safe and Save program quarterly.
couple of other things to consider with carfax:
all dealers (at least in my experience) report to carfax, even if you go in for something simple like tire pressure adjustment or an oil change. If the dealer writes a Work Order for your car, you can bet it will show up on carfax.
OnStar and Sirius Connected Services (not Sirius Radio, but the Safety Connect Service found in Acura, BMW, Honda, Hyundai, Infiniti, Jaguar, Land Rover, Lexus, Nissan, Subaru, and Toyota) also report mileage to carfax quarterly.
State Farm pulls from Carfax for their Drive Safe and Save program quarterly.
01-11-16, 02:39 PM
#9
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Yeah, his attorney told him about the Carfax stuff. He specializes in litigation against car manufacturers. I guess a lot of people want to sue Carfax or whomever under similar circumstances my friend is going through.
The biggest issue is the delay in reporting and incorrect and/or exaggerated damage listings.
His car isn't salvaged according to the DMV, but just lists "major" accident, no airbags deployed. For all he knows that "major" could be nothing more than a love tap, but he doesn't know precisely.
The body shop the attorney referred him to said there was no frame damage, but the front bumper looks replaced and one strut/hub looks newer than the other. Right front lights looks newer to, although to the untrained eye you really can't tell a thing. I couldn't.
It's a BMW M5, so I imagined whoever owned it, crashed it, fixed it, sold it or traded it in right after fixing it. Dealer took possession somehow, probably checked Carfax, nothing, certified it, God knows how, and my friend bought it. Four years later, the dealer he was going to trade it in to showed him the Carfax. Deal off.
That "major" tag is like a scarlet letter. No dealer will give anything near what it's worth and he can't sell it. He's trying though, on Craigslist and Autotrader lol.
So again, there's sometimes huge delays in reporting and it might not even be right. Had he a good body shop or mechanic look at before he bought it, that stuff would have been discovered, instead of relying on the dealer's word and Carfax.
The biggest issue is the delay in reporting and incorrect and/or exaggerated damage listings.
His car isn't salvaged according to the DMV, but just lists "major" accident, no airbags deployed. For all he knows that "major" could be nothing more than a love tap, but he doesn't know precisely.
The body shop the attorney referred him to said there was no frame damage, but the front bumper looks replaced and one strut/hub looks newer than the other. Right front lights looks newer to, although to the untrained eye you really can't tell a thing. I couldn't.
It's a BMW M5, so I imagined whoever owned it, crashed it, fixed it, sold it or traded it in right after fixing it. Dealer took possession somehow, probably checked Carfax, nothing, certified it, God knows how, and my friend bought it. Four years later, the dealer he was going to trade it in to showed him the Carfax. Deal off.
That "major" tag is like a scarlet letter. No dealer will give anything near what it's worth and he can't sell it. He's trying though, on Craigslist and Autotrader lol.
So again, there's sometimes huge delays in reporting and it might not even be right. Had he a good body shop or mechanic look at before he bought it, that stuff would have been discovered, instead of relying on the dealer's word and Carfax.
01-11-16, 07:20 PM
#12
Advanced
I know a guy who hit a deer in his Honda Pilot (hood, fender grill was replaced) then he took it to a body shop and paid the shop cash then sold it as a "clean car" with no accidents reported to CF. This is why a good dealer or buyer uses a paint meter...... Especially on a high end car. A paint meter is a great tool to have on a "car search" and when you buy the car you want, sell the meter to get some of your money back..... A small investment to make to avoid problems later like the OP's friend has now.
I would suggest that the OP's friend calls up a local TV station and tells them the story how he got F'd. ...... They love stories like this especially on a Non Advertiser.
01-12-16, 06:19 AM
#14
Pole Position
Yep I learned that Carfax is nothing more than a starting point. Then you need to continue searching out the truth. My car appeared to have some damage on the passenger back side that was never reported. In fact, my carfax said the car was pretty much perfect. Well, it is to me, but there certainly was some kind of damage done. In any event, there is no guarantees on buying used merchandise.
