Makes them look like they on a fishing expedition...

 

Your largesse is only exceeded by your kind nature JM. I wish I was closer so I could shake your hand for all your unselfish efforts. My new LS (1500 miles) is much quieter than the previous one (hybrid helps), but I expect it will eventually produce tell-tale sounds not unlike the others. Whether they be hybrid, long wheelbase or short, they all suffer from this phenomena, and this is not just a Lexus problem but one now known to be associated with motor actuated side mirrors. And I'm certain folding mirrors accentuate the noise further still.

 

This is an interesting review for a 2008 LS460. Anybody know how to contact this guy?

One thing that is notable about this owner's review is that it is probably not biased by anything he has heard or read. I think he is pristine.


http://autos.yahoo.com/lexus_ls_460-reviews_user/

Quote:
Noisey over 91DB
by Fawaz from Kuwait (8/23/08)
Pros: its not Graet Luxery with this Kind of Nise
Cons: its so noisey when you drive it in the hightway
i am so upset to but this car , because you well feel of alot of noisey when you drive it on the highway ,, and that noisey comeing from the sides of the car as you feel there is so of air get inside the car ,,,, i am so shoked of that ,, and the dealr told me that voise its normal , and when they send some one to see how much of noise ,,, he found that showing of that noisey voise over 91DB
i wish i know that befor i buy it
End Quote

 

This owner's experience with Lexus Customer Relations regarding wind noise sounds eerily like mine. Sounds like they are still using the old "Window Change" razzle-dazzle and the "I want you to drive a 460L because the LWB models don't have that problem." And you can see that Lexus still thinks it is an owner's "mental thing" - that is double talk for imaginary.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX?14@@.f0fc817/77

Quote:
#97 of 99 LS 460 Wind Noise - the downfall of Lexus by rcox4 Aug 23, 2008 (6:17 am)
After speaking with Tustin Lexus and being told that the only reason I could hear more wind noise in my LS 460 than in my LS 430 was because the 460's ambient noise level was so low, I could now hear the wind. I must have been wearing my " I am gullible" hat that day. After speaking with the dealer I contacted Lexus' customer care department and I must say this made a bad experience worse. Once I submitted my issue I got an automated response telling me how much they valued my business and that I would be contacted within 2-5 days. On day 5 or 6, I was contacted by a young lady who asked me a series of questions which were all addressed in my original complaint. She told me she would look into this and get back to me. After waiting for three weeks I contacted attempted to contact her by phone and was told she was out for lunch. I left my phone number for a return call, which I never received. Four days later I called again and this time the rep was there, but on another call. The person who was assisting me told me that supposedly Tustin Lexus's service manager was supposed to have contacted me about a resolution. In lieu of some previous service experiences with this dealership, it came as no surprise that I had not. I was told they were going to replace my front windows with windows from an LS460 L, which are supposedly thicker. When I then went back and contacted the dealership the service manager insisted I test drive an LS 460 L first to insure it even makes a difference in my mind. If any readers of this posting has had this done, I would appreciate hearing from you as to your experience. The saddest part of this entire experience has not been the fact Lexus released this model with this defect in the first place, but they have lost their focus on being a truly great customer service company. I have bought four new Lexus' in the past 7 years, but will remember this when it is time to shop again.
End Quote

 

This is very, very sad. First of all, why are they SO stubborn to admit there is a major problem? Secondly, why are they SO incredibly stubborn and not put out a TSIB with jm's easy fix? Your fix, jm, is the only true fix for this problem. All this other stuff Lexus has come up with (window seal kit, thicker glass, etc.) do little or nothing to alleviate the wind noise.

I still hold out some hope that Lexus will wake up soon and correct this the right way.

 

how is this possible? it happen the same thing to me. I called lexus care, and talk to someone, then a lady called me back and check what's going on with my Ls. She said she will call me back in 3-5 days, but now is over 3 months, never heard from her. This is really BS. If I know Lexus has this problem, I rather go with MB or BMW.

 

These reports are incredibly frustrating to read. For many of these cases first I wish there was a way to let them know how to find ClubLexus and this thread. I remember there is LexusOverride.com set up by someone (not sure if credible) for the navigation lockout. Second I think Lexus corporate should completely revamp their efforts. Not calling back customers when promised is a major no-no, those employees who are slacking off and not doing their job should be reprimanded etc. Secondly, this attitude of 'in your head' noise evaluation has to stop. I've months ago recommended using dB meters to quantify the issues.

Lastly, I can't help but wonder if the buybacks, etc. are due Lexus still not getting that the triangular fix works. Someone in Lexus corporate...if they are reading this, can they not implement this on a wide scale, as a major response to this issue when it arises? Then the vast majority of frustration, buybacks etc. could be avoided.

 

This sounds like a novel approach. I hope no one thinks I am making this stuff up.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/Web....f0fc817/98#98

Quote:
Does anyone think it is appropriate for Lexus to release the 460 without checking the wind noise problem on the driver's side? That is very "unLexus-like". I have had my 460 for about 3 months now and it still boggles my mind that I have to put a duct tape on a >$70K vehicle to avoid the whining noise!!!!

Yikes, Lexus needs to do something fast to avoid eroding the customer base. Remember when BMW added an extra year of warranty to the 7 series (2002 and 2003 models) to appease customers for the initial lousy version of the 2002-2008 models? Lexus will be well served to do something before loosing people like me who is driving his 4th LS.

BTW, our other car is a 2003 745Li and it has performed smoothly without any glitch since we bought it.

Lexus listen up!!
End Quote.

 

Except that the LS460 is selling VERY well and is WELL received by MOST. I agree that there IS a wind problem and that Jim Craney is a genius for finding a cheap, easy fix. That being said, this is just a very minor speed bump for Lexus as the car is a whopping success. Lexus should just fess up, do the Craney fix to all cars and perhaps compensate Jim, big time, for his efforts. But I suspect they won't acknowledge him. I agree that they are stubborn for not embracing the fix, instead of ignoring it. But the car is a success and continues to enhance the Lexus reputation.

 

Actually, they aren't selling that well. Not that they are a bad car but no high end car is selling good.

 

True, the only thing selling now are econoboxes. But the LS has been well received and is selling well under the circumstances.

Put another way, the wind noise issues are having no appreciable effect on sales because most people either don't have it or don't care or aren't that sensitive to it. It's just not a big enough problem to affect sales. I am NOT saying it doesn't exist or isn't a problem FOR INDIVIDUALS. I am a good example. My car made some swooshing noises but they didn't really bother me. But I did the Jim Craney fix anyway because it was cheap and easy and low risk. And I was surprised how much "even more quieter" the car is. But I was not unhappy to begin with.

Lexus should recall all LS460s and "do the Craney". Period. But regardless the car is a success and the addition of AWD will make it world class.

 

Earlier I suggested an easy fix, namely push down hard on the rear of the triangle to make sure its adhesive has had a chance to bond. This was something I noticed, of course, after having pulled them both off, and thus having no choice but to goop it up with silicone per the jmcraney fix.

Since then, as I should have expected, the driver's side piece came loose and the noise returned. This is because silicone rubber is quite a poor adhesive. It's OK at filling gaps, but that's about all. It's really a pretty crude fix, and one not really appropriate to a car of the LS-460's quality.

So I ordered two new triangles for $18 each, and here is a picture of a new one to the left of an old one:

https://www.clublexus.com/gallery/sh...21077&cat=3817

What you wll notice is that this is quite a sophisticated piece of engineering. Note there are two levels of "gasket", the black next to the vertical edge, and behind it a white plastic foam adhesive gasket. Then there is the super-high-tack tape running around the periphery. Also note the two white retainer clips that disappear down into the door when you remove the part. Somebody thought about this quite a bit. So, if you can't get your existing one to stick down all the way, I think the appropriate fix given the engineering effort that has been put into the car is to replace the triangle with a new one, and when installing it make sure you use enough force to allow the entire triangle of high-tack adhesive to bond.

BTW the part numbers are (for the RHS) 67495-50020 (for the LHS) 67496-50020. Park Place Lexus (www.trademotion.com) lists them for $13.

 

That's the key reason I've been hesitant to attempt this fix; worried that the clips could interfere with the window operation or cause some rattling noises from within the door. Been waiting patiently for a TSIB, but having my doubts one will be put out by Lexus Corp.

 

Thank you for bringing all this up again – it gives us a good opportunity to review what we know. And we know quite a bit, but the discussion is long and time consuming to read so many people who have an interest in this subject are not reading all of it and are missing some important points.

Your point about the silicone sealant not sticking well to the chrome or plastic was first made in Post #28 of this discussion thread. I was initially concerned about that, but when I redid one of my trim pieces – see Post #69 – I found that the sealant stuck very well to both the plastic and chrome. I sealed my trim pieces over four month ago and they have been exposed to Texas heat (over 106 degrees) and driven 80 MPH and in 45 MPH gusty wind and so far they don’t show any indication that they are letting go. I used the clear silicone sealant pictured in Post #10 to do mine. Others have suggested and used the black Permatex sealant pictured in response #133. We have not had any reports, other than yours, concerning adhesion problems. Your experience does point out that there may be a problem in that area.

It would be like trying to put lipstick on a pig to disagree with your assessment that my “fix” is crude. I recognized early on that my solution was not elegant - see Post #28 - and when I came up with this it was intended to be just for me. I would like to remind you that I am an unacknowledged/uncompensated volunteer for Lexus and my solutions don’t need to be very fancy or high tech. I shared this with the expectation that Lexus would provide a solution for the masses.

The new trim pieces pictured in your link seem to be much like those pictured in Post #175 and your part numbers are the same as those in Post #189. Your link to the $13 deal will be of value to those who decide to replace their trim pieces.

It was pointed out in Post #179 that the white locking tabs on the trim pieces wind up inside the door when the trim is pried off. We have not had any reports that the loose tabs in the doors have caused a problem.

We have a report from one of our responders that he had his car fixed in the manner that I suggested at his dealership and that a Japanese factory representative was in attendance. See Post #173. As far as I know the old part was reused. I can’t tell from the information that was provided if the door panel was removed and the clips retrieved.

As far as I know, Lexus has not acknowledged the triangle trim as a contributor to the “Wind Noise” problem and has not made any offer to replace the trim. In fact, I have been told, by a dealership insider, that Lexus has forbidden them from doing any unapproved wind noise fixes. I am not sure if that guidance was to not do any more wind noise fixes or if it was to not do the exact fix that I identified. Since there are owners who would like to get their cars fixed and are not DIYers I suggested that they could probably get some relief by asking their dealers to replace the trim piece with new pieces – a sort of end around, Lexus-approved fix – see Post #183. I thought that would at least make the cars equal to those that didn’t have a problem. Also in that post I told of my theory that the clip or clips had separated from the trim and caused the problem.

One of our responders did get his dealer to replace the trim with new parts. After having his “noise consultant” ride with him and getting a report that there was still some noise he went back and got the dealer to remove the trim and apply the sealant. He reported that after the sealant was applied his car was quiet. You can read about it at Post #226. There is no indication if the clips were retrieved. I think that this one, although brief, is very important. I think that it points out that every car can be improved.

I started reading this thread (actually the old thread) because I was seeking a solution for my car and I started reading near the tail of the thread as I expect most people do. I started reading backward and thought I was getting the information that I needed. It seemed to me that there was a single problem and that all the varied symptoms being reported were because of the variation in peoples hearing and peoples perception the same problem. After reading more carefully and gaining the knowledge from fixing my car I began to realize that the triangle trim defect produces a wide range of symptoms that can range from slight to severe. The problem can be on one side or the other or both.

There seems to be three contributors to the noise: The gaps that are identified in response #10 may cause the swooshing noise that some owner’s report; a gap in the mounting tape, either because insufficient pressure was applied during assembly, or because the tape separated may allow air to get in around the registration holes; or the clips on the back of the trim may have come off, allowing a diaphragm effect or oscillation.

As for your assessment “What you will notice is that this is quite a sophisticated piece of engineering:” It does have that appearance. But the reality is that there is a problem as evidenced by the numerous reports of “Wind Noise.” I think Lexus continues to share your opinion of their part design. But, unless they make some sort of adjustment it seems that they will prorogate this mistake into their 2009 models too or they may have already done that.

 

Over the past few weeks I have had several Private Mail inquiries, all from the Middle East, asking where to find the instructions in our discussion thread. I responded to each inquiry promptly.

I have gotten no indication that my responses have been received. If you inquired and didn't get a response, check your Private Mail on this site.

The only instructions that you need are at Post #9 in this thread. The pictures that go with the instructions are at Post #10.