Need new Mufflers. Absolute Quietest?
11-27-18, 10:08 AM
#1
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Need new Mufflers. Absolute Quietest?
So as my mechanic (and my ears) have told me, both of my mufflers are shot. I looked on lexuspartsnow and the cheapest was around $568 i believe. My question is, is it worth over $1000 for 2 new OEM mufflers or should I go walker quiet flow or something else.
I am looking for the absolute quietest money can buy so I can return to driving my dead silent LS. Also when I go above 3,000 RPMs with my foot 50% down or more I smell sulfur. Do I also need a new cat?
I am looking for the absolute quietest money can buy so I can return to driving my dead silent LS. Also when I go above 3,000 RPMs with my foot 50% down or more I smell sulfur. Do I also need a new cat?
11-27-18, 10:53 AM
#3
Moderator
11-27-18, 09:11 PM
#5
Instructor
I would go OEM unless you find an aftermarket brand that claims to have spent millions/billions on R&D, uses superior non-rusting metals, and is also cheaper than OEM. I suspect anyone's next set of OEM mufflers would last for the remaining life of the car. I could be wrong, but I don't think too many people have replaced their mufflers due to failure/rust - rather they replace because they want to do the opposite of muffling noise. My OEM mufflers are 16.5 years old, no rusting problems so far, so I would assume new mufflers would also last at least 16 years.
Sulfur smell could be from:
* Bad battery - https://www.pe.com/2011/07/03/stinky...a-bad-battery/ - If a battery is frozen, overcharged, or has otherwise shorted out internally, it may cause the case to vent gas. It is important to have your vehicle inspected as soon as possible, as the sulfuric acid in batteries can cause corrosion or eat away at other vital engine parts.
* You have been driving your car slowly and gingerly for a while, and then you put the petal to the metal to pass someone, which heats up the catalytic converter and burns the deposits of sulphur and hydrocarbons that have built up over the last few weeks. If you rarely push the revs when you are driving, there will be a larger buildup for when you gun it to pass someone on the highway, which heats up the catalytic converter and it burns off. Pro tip: Once a week drive your car like a teenager.
* High sulfur fuel - Lexus will refer you to a TSB just like Buick did here - https://www.groovecar.com/articles/a...doing-its-job/ - The rotten egg smell is from the catalytic converter working to clean the exhaust. Replacing the catalytic converter will not eliminate the sulfur smell and replacement will just extend the period of time needed for the converter to “age,” allowing it to reduce sulfur smell to an acceptable level. Dealers will tell you to switch to a different brand of fuel and drive the vehicle for at least 100 miles. It can take five fill ups to clean out the smell from a catalytic converter. Run the gas tank down to just under 1/4, switch the brand and gasoline grade to a higher octane. The higher the octane, the hotter and cleaner the gas burns.
* Caused by a failing catalytic converter. Hydrogen sulfide, found in the exhaust, is produced by a touch of sulfur in fuel. Once it enters the catalytic converter, it should convert to sulfur dioxide. It is true that using a different gasoline brand can sometimes lessen the smell. Driving on the highway can also help eliminate it. Driving habits do contribute to the intensity of the smell. It seems the more local driving, the more the catalytic converter builds up chemicals that give the smell. There are some expensive catalytic converter cleaners that may help and if the smell bothers you this much, then I would recommend trying a couple of applications.
* Cracks in the exhaust manifold can cause the smell - https://www.consumerreports.org/car-...exhaust-leaks/ - One owner of a 2017 Explorer said in the survey, “If you accelerate over 3,500 rpm, the cabin smells like rotten eggs” An owner of a 2016 Explorer noted, “Vehicle gets exhaust smell through A/C into cabin when hard-accelerating.”
* A fuel injector that doesn't close precisely when it should (stays open too long) causes the fuel mixture to be too rich, causing the cats to overheat and causes this smell. When the catalytic converter isn't able to convert all of the fuel, you get excessive sulphur dioxide emissions - and that rotten egg smell. You'll then soon be facing a plugged and inoperable catalytic converter. This occurs because the reactions inside the cat create heat, and if it is not controlled under normal operating conditions, the heat will reach a point that will melt the substrates that make up the interior reaction elements of the cat.
* Clogged cats can overheat and cause this smell. If left to the point of plugging, the exhaust gases and heat can't leave the engine, which will eventually lead to internal damage to the engine - on top of the damage to the catalytic converter. Someone on these forums posted a few months ago a picture of some strange debris in the cats, don't think anyone had a guess as to where that debris came from, but it definitely blocked airflow.
* One of the sensors on the car that has to do with fuel management is not doing its job, so the engine is injecting too much fuel and running rich. The catalytic converter is not able to effectively process the byproducts of the exhaust when this happens. When the catalytic converter is overwhelmed from running rich for too long, these byproducts are sent out the tailpipe unprocessed and they have a very distinct smell. Another symptom of a bad sensor is that too many byproducts in the catalytic converter makes it run very hot, burning off all of its buildup, which can cause a very strong odour
* Plug in TechStream or any OBD2 scanner, check your short-term and long-term fuel trims to see if you are regularly running rich, and also check your O2 sensor voltage waveforms to ensure correct sensor operation. O2S signal voltage must fluctuate above and below 0.45V at least 8 times in 10 seconds (0.8Hz) at 2500rpm with the engine at operating temperature. During the rich swing, voltage should exceed 550mV, and during the lean swing should fall below 400mV.
* Perform a rattle test on the cats - hit the converter shell with the center of your palm (don't hit it too hard or you may damage it!). If the substrate is OK, it should sound solid. If it rattles, you need a new cat.
* Perform a restricted exhaust system check: attach a vacuum gauge to an intake manifold vacuum source, with engine at operating temperature, hold revs at 2000rpm, ensure vacuum reading is close to normal idle, then quickly let go of the throttle. The vacuum reading should momentarily rise then smoothly drop to normal idle. If the vacuum rises slowly or does not quickly return to normal, the exhaust system may be restricted.
* Do not use any type of fuel additives, as this could add sulfur to the fuel and cause/increase the odor.
* Avoid short-trip driving and aggressive acceleration.
Sulfur smell could be from:
* Bad battery - https://www.pe.com/2011/07/03/stinky...a-bad-battery/ - If a battery is frozen, overcharged, or has otherwise shorted out internally, it may cause the case to vent gas. It is important to have your vehicle inspected as soon as possible, as the sulfuric acid in batteries can cause corrosion or eat away at other vital engine parts.
* You have been driving your car slowly and gingerly for a while, and then you put the petal to the metal to pass someone, which heats up the catalytic converter and burns the deposits of sulphur and hydrocarbons that have built up over the last few weeks. If you rarely push the revs when you are driving, there will be a larger buildup for when you gun it to pass someone on the highway, which heats up the catalytic converter and it burns off. Pro tip: Once a week drive your car like a teenager.
* High sulfur fuel - Lexus will refer you to a TSB just like Buick did here - https://www.groovecar.com/articles/a...doing-its-job/ - The rotten egg smell is from the catalytic converter working to clean the exhaust. Replacing the catalytic converter will not eliminate the sulfur smell and replacement will just extend the period of time needed for the converter to “age,” allowing it to reduce sulfur smell to an acceptable level. Dealers will tell you to switch to a different brand of fuel and drive the vehicle for at least 100 miles. It can take five fill ups to clean out the smell from a catalytic converter. Run the gas tank down to just under 1/4, switch the brand and gasoline grade to a higher octane. The higher the octane, the hotter and cleaner the gas burns.
* Caused by a failing catalytic converter. Hydrogen sulfide, found in the exhaust, is produced by a touch of sulfur in fuel. Once it enters the catalytic converter, it should convert to sulfur dioxide. It is true that using a different gasoline brand can sometimes lessen the smell. Driving on the highway can also help eliminate it. Driving habits do contribute to the intensity of the smell. It seems the more local driving, the more the catalytic converter builds up chemicals that give the smell. There are some expensive catalytic converter cleaners that may help and if the smell bothers you this much, then I would recommend trying a couple of applications.
* Cracks in the exhaust manifold can cause the smell - https://www.consumerreports.org/car-...exhaust-leaks/ - One owner of a 2017 Explorer said in the survey, “If you accelerate over 3,500 rpm, the cabin smells like rotten eggs” An owner of a 2016 Explorer noted, “Vehicle gets exhaust smell through A/C into cabin when hard-accelerating.”
* A fuel injector that doesn't close precisely when it should (stays open too long) causes the fuel mixture to be too rich, causing the cats to overheat and causes this smell. When the catalytic converter isn't able to convert all of the fuel, you get excessive sulphur dioxide emissions - and that rotten egg smell. You'll then soon be facing a plugged and inoperable catalytic converter. This occurs because the reactions inside the cat create heat, and if it is not controlled under normal operating conditions, the heat will reach a point that will melt the substrates that make up the interior reaction elements of the cat.
* Clogged cats can overheat and cause this smell. If left to the point of plugging, the exhaust gases and heat can't leave the engine, which will eventually lead to internal damage to the engine - on top of the damage to the catalytic converter. Someone on these forums posted a few months ago a picture of some strange debris in the cats, don't think anyone had a guess as to where that debris came from, but it definitely blocked airflow.
* One of the sensors on the car that has to do with fuel management is not doing its job, so the engine is injecting too much fuel and running rich. The catalytic converter is not able to effectively process the byproducts of the exhaust when this happens. When the catalytic converter is overwhelmed from running rich for too long, these byproducts are sent out the tailpipe unprocessed and they have a very distinct smell. Another symptom of a bad sensor is that too many byproducts in the catalytic converter makes it run very hot, burning off all of its buildup, which can cause a very strong odour
* Plug in TechStream or any OBD2 scanner, check your short-term and long-term fuel trims to see if you are regularly running rich, and also check your O2 sensor voltage waveforms to ensure correct sensor operation. O2S signal voltage must fluctuate above and below 0.45V at least 8 times in 10 seconds (0.8Hz) at 2500rpm with the engine at operating temperature. During the rich swing, voltage should exceed 550mV, and during the lean swing should fall below 400mV.
* Perform a rattle test on the cats - hit the converter shell with the center of your palm (don't hit it too hard or you may damage it!). If the substrate is OK, it should sound solid. If it rattles, you need a new cat.
* Perform a restricted exhaust system check: attach a vacuum gauge to an intake manifold vacuum source, with engine at operating temperature, hold revs at 2000rpm, ensure vacuum reading is close to normal idle, then quickly let go of the throttle. The vacuum reading should momentarily rise then smoothly drop to normal idle. If the vacuum rises slowly or does not quickly return to normal, the exhaust system may be restricted.
* Do not use any type of fuel additives, as this could add sulfur to the fuel and cause/increase the odor.
* Avoid short-trip driving and aggressive acceleration.
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RA40 (11-28-18)
11-28-18, 05:47 AM
#6
Lexus Fanatic
Just my experience with Walker. It has a lifetime warranty.
My Nissan Maxima purchased new, had the original exhaust rust out when it was 12 y.o. The "King" muffler shop where everything turns to gold, installed a new Walker resonator (includes the mid muffler) and a Walker muffler. I live in the Northeast where roads are salted.
These parts rusted out in just around 18 mos. Nobody would honor the warranty, and I think Walker told me I had to ship the old parts back for inspection? hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Walker = Avoid
If not keeping the car then I suppose maybe lower $$$ and do use aftermarket
(I had it in writing that resonator is covered for life, by the King, so I went to the mattresses. They fought me hard, I thought this was a Chicago co. but no it is a Miami FLA co. now. Nothing short of BBB got me a new resonator. To discredit them, I decided to drive to 3 franchises, and obtained 3 different quotes ranging from $490 to $900). When I told the last place no (free estimates in writing), he said we can take another 20% off lol. Yes I wasted time going to 3 places and having my car lifted, but I wanted to prove what a racket they are by getting quotes from $490 to $900 for the same work--and I never told them the muffler is warranted for life. That was my day in the life of Bill Kurtis.)
My Nissan Maxima purchased new, had the original exhaust rust out when it was 12 y.o. The "King" muffler shop where everything turns to gold, installed a new Walker resonator (includes the mid muffler) and a Walker muffler. I live in the Northeast where roads are salted.
These parts rusted out in just around 18 mos. Nobody would honor the warranty, and I think Walker told me I had to ship the old parts back for inspection? hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Walker = Avoid
If not keeping the car then I suppose maybe lower $$$ and do use aftermarket
(I had it in writing that resonator is covered for life, by the King, so I went to the mattresses. They fought me hard, I thought this was a Chicago co. but no it is a Miami FLA co. now. Nothing short of BBB got me a new resonator. To discredit them, I decided to drive to 3 franchises, and obtained 3 different quotes ranging from $490 to $900). When I told the last place no (free estimates in writing), he said we can take another 20% off lol. Yes I wasted time going to 3 places and having my car lifted, but I wanted to prove what a racket they are by getting quotes from $490 to $900 for the same work--and I never told them the muffler is warranted for life. That was my day in the life of Bill Kurtis.)
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MrHarris (05-03-22)
11-28-18, 08:07 AM
#7
I had a muffler that last 2-3 years before needing replacement. This was many years ago and several cars ago so I am not 100% but pretty sure it was Walker. We have salt in winter here in KY.
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11-28-18, 08:42 AM
#8
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Salt here in Illinois & Wisconsin, the two states I split my time in. Probably will go OEM and get some sort of coating on it so it doesn't rust out again.
11-28-18, 09:10 AM
#9
Instructor
I was trying to think of aftermarket mufflers that weren't garbage like the Walkers, and only Borla came to mind. They are a well-known high-quality aftermarket exhaust system manufacturer, anyone into exhaust systems knows Borla. They may have even helped design the OEM Lexus and Toyota mufflers and exhaust systems - they hold several patents on technology related to muffling sound:
https://www.borla.com/support/faqs/
The straight through designs that Borla pioneered dramatically reduce back pressure while eliminating significant sound waves. A portion of this effort is proprietary, even to the level of allowing Alex Borla multiple patents for his unique methods of acoustical sound wave attenuation in an internal-combustion engine muffler. This being said, some of the characteristics we can share. The biggest secret is use of multiple cores in our high end street and racing mufflers. This also is patented technology.
The most commonly used metals in the manufacture of exhaust systems are rusty mild steel, aluminized steel or an inferior 400-series stainless. Many new-model cars and trucks come factory-equipped with a low grade, 400 series stainless steel exhaust. These are an improvement from the old, rusty steel systems and are built to improve durability somewhat. Also, the inferior grade of stainless is the only cheap material that will last through the factory warranty period. But, ferritic stainless steels, which are part of the 400 series of stainless alloys, are magnetic, as compared to Austenitic stainless steels, which are part of the 200 & 300 series of stainless alloys and are non-magnetic. The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) has reported the overwhelming advantages of 300 and 200 series stainless steel over lesser grades like 400.
BORLA uses only high quality austenitic stainless steel, which is superior for automotive exhaust because it exhibits higher hardness and yield strength as well as excellent ductility. And, the higher nickel and chromium content makes it much more resistant to corrosion. Because these austenitic alloys are higher grade materials and harder to work with, they are therefore too expensive for the OE to supply. It costs more than the other lesser grades of steel. To cut, bend and hand weld this grade of stainless steel takes special equipment too. Ask your local muffler shop if they can make a smooth, precision mandrel bend in a 2.50" 201 or 304 Stainless Steel pipe for you. You won't find many that can, and it won't be cheap. We also focus heavily on research and development to assure that the system fits, performs and sounds better than any other system on the market. Add to this pressure testing, our Million-Mile Warranty and the years of race winning technology that go into the systems made at BORLA, and you will see why we have so many loyal, repeat customers. A BORLA is actually very cost effective when you take into account the fact that most exhaust systems will need replacement within 18 months to 4 years while a BORLA exhaust is designed to last the life of your vehicle.
BORLA pioneered the use of high-quality austenitic stainless steel in exhaust manufacturing over 30 years ago. Alex Borla holds five US patents for innovative, revolutionary exhaust technology. These patented, award and race-winning designs are unbeatable in terms of flow, sound, fit, durability and guarantee. A BORLA muffler actually flows better than a straight pipe. This also translates to fuel economy.
BORLA® mufflers contain high quality, continuous strand fiber bundle which is superior to the loose fiberglass packing in glasspack mufflers. This high quality packing material and stainless steel inner core construction, which is impervious to all corrosive acids, protects the packing from breaking down and getting blown out, so a BORLA® muffler never needs replacing. In addition, a BORLA® muffler is the most effective sound-absorbing device for the size, and it is guaranteed for one million miles.
Racing champs who know the benefits of running BORLA's and trust BORLA to be the quickest and quietest to give them the winning advantage include Kenny Bernstein, Brandon Bernstein, G.S. Abbott, Jean Ann Campagna, Steve Echols, Kent Hanley, Alan Kenny, Pat Musi, Wayne Talkington and Jeff Strckland as well as the American LeMans Corvette Racing Team, GM Racing's Cadillac LMP Team and Team Lexus. BORLA has been invited to participate in Toyota racing programs as well as Team Viper's GTS-R, Team Escort, and Team Focus programs from their inceptions.
BORLA has enjoyed some 20 years of mutually beneficial relationships with the OEM (original equipment manufacturers). We participate in the design and build up of many concept vehicles for DaimlerChrysler and Ford as well as GM, TRD, Mazda, Nissan, and Lexus. Ford Motor Company chose BORLA exhaust for their limited Cobra-R model. We developed a complete exhaust system, including headers, for the Shelby Series I and have worked with Toyota and their Solara as well as Mazda and their Protégé on both aftermarket opportunities and limited production runs.
Borla Performance stands behind our products by offering a lifetime warranty against defects in materials and workmanship. After nearly 30 years, the reason we are able to do this is because austenitic stainless steel is a superior material with optimum chromium and nickel content to maximize resistance to corrosion and rust as compared to 400 series which contains iron that, as we all know, rusts. For example, the stock headers on the Mustang have been made of 400 series stainless for some time. Have you ever looked at your stock headers to see how badly they rust? Do you want to buy an aftermarket system made of 400 series? The same grade material as the system you already have?
BORLA uses only high quality austenitic stainless steel, which is superior for automotive exhaust because it exhibits higher hardness and yield strength as well as excellent ductility. And, the higher nickel and chromium content makes it much more resistant to corrosion. Because these austenitic alloys are higher grade materials and harder to work with, they are therefore too expensive for the OE to supply. It costs more than the other lesser grades of steel. To cut, bend and hand weld this grade of stainless steel takes special equipment too. Ask your local muffler shop if they can make a smooth, precision mandrel bend in a 2.50" 201 or 304 Stainless Steel pipe for you. You won't find many that can, and it won't be cheap. We also focus heavily on research and development to assure that the system fits, performs and sounds better than any other system on the market. Add to this pressure testing, our Million-Mile Warranty and the years of race winning technology that go into the systems made at BORLA, and you will see why we have so many loyal, repeat customers. A BORLA is actually very cost effective when you take into account the fact that most exhaust systems will need replacement within 18 months to 4 years while a BORLA exhaust is designed to last the life of your vehicle.
BORLA pioneered the use of high-quality austenitic stainless steel in exhaust manufacturing over 30 years ago. Alex Borla holds five US patents for innovative, revolutionary exhaust technology. These patented, award and race-winning designs are unbeatable in terms of flow, sound, fit, durability and guarantee. A BORLA muffler actually flows better than a straight pipe. This also translates to fuel economy.
BORLA® mufflers contain high quality, continuous strand fiber bundle which is superior to the loose fiberglass packing in glasspack mufflers. This high quality packing material and stainless steel inner core construction, which is impervious to all corrosive acids, protects the packing from breaking down and getting blown out, so a BORLA® muffler never needs replacing. In addition, a BORLA® muffler is the most effective sound-absorbing device for the size, and it is guaranteed for one million miles.
Racing champs who know the benefits of running BORLA's and trust BORLA to be the quickest and quietest to give them the winning advantage include Kenny Bernstein, Brandon Bernstein, G.S. Abbott, Jean Ann Campagna, Steve Echols, Kent Hanley, Alan Kenny, Pat Musi, Wayne Talkington and Jeff Strckland as well as the American LeMans Corvette Racing Team, GM Racing's Cadillac LMP Team and Team Lexus. BORLA has been invited to participate in Toyota racing programs as well as Team Viper's GTS-R, Team Escort, and Team Focus programs from their inceptions.
BORLA has enjoyed some 20 years of mutually beneficial relationships with the OEM (original equipment manufacturers). We participate in the design and build up of many concept vehicles for DaimlerChrysler and Ford as well as GM, TRD, Mazda, Nissan, and Lexus. Ford Motor Company chose BORLA exhaust for their limited Cobra-R model. We developed a complete exhaust system, including headers, for the Shelby Series I and have worked with Toyota and their Solara as well as Mazda and their Protégé on both aftermarket opportunities and limited production runs.
Borla Performance stands behind our products by offering a lifetime warranty against defects in materials and workmanship. After nearly 30 years, the reason we are able to do this is because austenitic stainless steel is a superior material with optimum chromium and nickel content to maximize resistance to corrosion and rust as compared to 400 series which contains iron that, as we all know, rusts. For example, the stock headers on the Mustang have been made of 400 series stainless for some time. Have you ever looked at your stock headers to see how badly they rust? Do you want to buy an aftermarket system made of 400 series? The same grade material as the system you already have?
11-28-18, 09:41 AM
#11
Lexus Fanatic
imho there are instances where the mfg's interests and the owner's interests are in common. for example, why does GM put such good rotors on all their vehicles, when Lexus does not? (they are FNC i.e. baked in ovens with nitrogen) It's not because they want to be better than Lexus, it's because they want to eliminate warranty claims relating to brakes. So the consumer wins. Why do German cars put rotors on that have a zinc coating, when Lexus does not? Same reason. (imho a good brake rotor does not need to be cleaned out of the box, there is no oil on it as it's not needed, doesn't rust due to FNC or zinc)
My Maxima I believe only had an aluminized system, yet it lasted 12 yrs. in the northeast. I thought Lexus has semi stainless, even better. These are superior to Walker. My LS mufflers seem to be black (they are so dirty they look like there is black paint). When my wife scraped one, I got high temp flat black paint just to touch up the scrape....I think the OE will last a decade or more...
My Maxima I believe only had an aluminized system, yet it lasted 12 yrs. in the northeast. I thought Lexus has semi stainless, even better. These are superior to Walker. My LS mufflers seem to be black (they are so dirty they look like there is black paint). When my wife scraped one, I got high temp flat black paint just to touch up the scrape....I think the OE will last a decade or more...
11-29-18, 06:35 AM
#12
Moderator
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2KHarrier (11-29-18)
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