Looking for my 1st Lexus 430...what year models are best?
#16
Lexus Fanatic
Actually I always wondered about FLA cars, of which mine is.....and the ocean. My car is from Naples FLA, on the ocean. From all my research I think this is the case....someone said, if a car is parked on the ocean and is splashed or wind blows the water onto the car, yes, it will rust. But the rust will be on the body itself, not on the undercarriage and body, like waht you what you could see in the Northeast. Then others said the likelihood of LS type cars is some well to do may have it at the ocean, but in a garage all the time, only out when used, which on my car could explain 37k through 2014.
Again, I think the odds are good of getting a "reliable" car, when a person buys a LS430. To get the other conditions in line, like records, sold by a new car dealer, inspected and looks good, etc., this strengthens the odds of basically getting a car that needs little (timing belt and door actuator is almost a given at some point). We totally expect this experience to be different than say buying a used S class etc....good luck!
p.s. another key I think is to line up an indie for Japanese cars, who will install customer parts. Now, you have put an upper limit that is reasonable, on repairs...if you don't diy....
Again, I think the odds are good of getting a "reliable" car, when a person buys a LS430. To get the other conditions in line, like records, sold by a new car dealer, inspected and looks good, etc., this strengthens the odds of basically getting a car that needs little (timing belt and door actuator is almost a given at some point). We totally expect this experience to be different than say buying a used S class etc....good luck!
p.s. another key I think is to line up an indie for Japanese cars, who will install customer parts. Now, you have put an upper limit that is reasonable, on repairs...if you don't diy....
#17
Lexus Champion
[QUOTE=Johnhav430;10221446]Actually I always wondered about FLA cars, of which mine is.....and the ocean. My car is from Naples FLA, on the ocean. From all my research I think this is the case....someone said, if a car is parked on the ocean and is splashed or wind blows the water onto the car, yes, it will rust. But the rust will be on the body itself, not on the undercarriage and body, like waht you what you could see in the Northeast. Then others said the likelihood of LS type cars is some well to do may have it at the ocean, but in a garage all the time, only out when used, which on my car could explain 37k through 2014.
I lived in the West Palm Beach, Florida area in the early 1960's. It was very common to see relatively new cars that were rusting from the inside to the outside. Very common to see the rear deck panel (below the rear window in front of the deck lid (back then the trunk lid did not extend all the way to the rear window like they do today) with rust that was begining from inside the trunk. The pain was pealing off exposing the rust beneath. Same thing with lower doors. There was so much salt in the air that it attacked more than just exterior surface areas. Auto manufacturers had to eventually provide some protection against this problem and it is apparently not a big problem (I now live in Arizona so I'm not an expert in current salt problems in other parts of the US).
I lived in the West Palm Beach, Florida area in the early 1960's. It was very common to see relatively new cars that were rusting from the inside to the outside. Very common to see the rear deck panel (below the rear window in front of the deck lid (back then the trunk lid did not extend all the way to the rear window like they do today) with rust that was begining from inside the trunk. The pain was pealing off exposing the rust beneath. Same thing with lower doors. There was so much salt in the air that it attacked more than just exterior surface areas. Auto manufacturers had to eventually provide some protection against this problem and it is apparently not a big problem (I now live in Arizona so I'm not an expert in current salt problems in other parts of the US).
#18
Some great questions Reggie and welcome to the forum!
First and foremost As with any car, maintenance is the key to longevity. A well maintained 2001 LS will be a better owning experience over a beat 2006 with less miles. I won't speak to the advantages of the LS460 over the LS430, as we're rather partial to the 3rd Gen cars here (LS460 being 4th Gen). I own 2 LS430s. a high mileage 2001 which is my commuter car and a 2005 LS with 59K on it. I've had to do very little maintenance to my 2001. Brakes, rear engine mount, fluid changes, Throttle Body cleaning really not much else worth noting.
The 2005 has needed nothing. I did do the timing belt on it last month because of age, and the belt looked new when I removed it. I'll be doing the TB on my 2001 next week, as I'm almost at 200K and it's ready for it's 2nd belt
I do the work myself, but you can find independent shops that are capable of doing the timing belt on an LS for a reasonable cost.
You should be able to find a very nice 2004 or 2005 LS under $10K which will be decent mileage and condition. Nice 2006s are still in the 12-13K range.
The 2004-2006 cars got a 6 speed trans and updated headlights/taillamps but other than that, there's few differences between the 2001-2003 and 2004-2006 cars.
I do know that the 2007 LS460s had some issues with suspension, but someone else can speak more about that.
And most importantly, the Avalon is a completely different car. Nothing is shared between the 2 platforms. LS is V8 rear wheel drive and the Avalon is a Front wheel drive V6 platform
The 2 cars are worlds apart.
Hope this info helps!
Jim
First and foremost As with any car, maintenance is the key to longevity. A well maintained 2001 LS will be a better owning experience over a beat 2006 with less miles. I won't speak to the advantages of the LS460 over the LS430, as we're rather partial to the 3rd Gen cars here (LS460 being 4th Gen). I own 2 LS430s. a high mileage 2001 which is my commuter car and a 2005 LS with 59K on it. I've had to do very little maintenance to my 2001. Brakes, rear engine mount, fluid changes, Throttle Body cleaning really not much else worth noting.
The 2005 has needed nothing. I did do the timing belt on it last month because of age, and the belt looked new when I removed it. I'll be doing the TB on my 2001 next week, as I'm almost at 200K and it's ready for it's 2nd belt
I do the work myself, but you can find independent shops that are capable of doing the timing belt on an LS for a reasonable cost.
You should be able to find a very nice 2004 or 2005 LS under $10K which will be decent mileage and condition. Nice 2006s are still in the 12-13K range.
The 2004-2006 cars got a 6 speed trans and updated headlights/taillamps but other than that, there's few differences between the 2001-2003 and 2004-2006 cars.
I do know that the 2007 LS460s had some issues with suspension, but someone else can speak more about that.
And most importantly, the Avalon is a completely different car. Nothing is shared between the 2 platforms. LS is V8 rear wheel drive and the Avalon is a Front wheel drive V6 platform
The 2 cars are worlds apart.
Hope this info helps!
Jim
Avalon is a great car, but the driving experience is different. FWD vs RWD. I also believe the LS rides better, smoother, quieter. Better materials, and kinda hard to explain, but everything seems to have a softer/more refined edge in LS. Drive both and then you can decide.
#19
Lexus Champion
I think the 04-06 looks sharper with the revised headlights and LED taillights. I like the 6 speed too which should save some gas in the long run. I drove the 5 speed as well, and honestly can not tell the difference. Both are smooth. None of these are a deal breaker, we just look for the best bang for the buck. But we end up getting an 04 custom luxury. Wife really like the moonlight pearl, so that sold it.
Avalon is a great car, but the driving experience is different. FWD vs RWD. I also believe the LS rides better, smoother, quieter. Better materials, and kinda hard to explain, but everything seems to have a softer/more refined edge in LS. Drive both and then you can decide.
Avalon is a great car, but the driving experience is different. FWD vs RWD. I also believe the LS rides better, smoother, quieter. Better materials, and kinda hard to explain, but everything seems to have a softer/more refined edge in LS. Drive both and then you can decide.
There's the answer right there.
#20
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Great council & advice guys...I certainly appreciate it.
My brother's trying his best to talk me into the LS460L, but I'm reading way too many reports about wind noise, road noise, and seat discomfort...and some other items.
He just about his 4th Jaguar, an XJL after having nothing but nightmares with the previous 3!
Somethings wrong with his head! "King of Pain!" Is what I've labeled him.
BTW...what is the deal with the ton of low priced 2007-2008 LS 460's?
Jeez they're literally oozing out of the woodwork!
My brother's trying his best to talk me into the LS460L, but I'm reading way too many reports about wind noise, road noise, and seat discomfort...and some other items.
He just about his 4th Jaguar, an XJL after having nothing but nightmares with the previous 3!
Somethings wrong with his head! "King of Pain!" Is what I've labeled him.
BTW...what is the deal with the ton of low priced 2007-2008 LS 460's?
Jeez they're literally oozing out of the woodwork!
#21
Lexus made over 35,000 '07 and over 20,000 '08 for the U.S. compare to less than 5,000 2017. supply and demand.
#22
Sounds like you’re on the right track for sure. Don’t listen to your brother about the 460L lol. I currently own an ‘04 430 with the sport suspension (not the adjustable air suspension), and previously owned an ‘01 430 as well as a ‘94 LS400 many years ago. I test drove a 2012 LS460 about a year after buying my ‘04 and was even more happy with the purchase of my 430 afterwards. The 460 just doesn’t feel as quiet, comfortable, smooth, or refined as my 430. Interior materials of the 460 also didn’t seem to be on par with the 430, and the mechanical reliability of the 460 isn’t quite there either in my opinion (especially the ‘07-‘08 models since they had quite a few more kinks that needed to be worked out. That’s probably a big reason why you’re finding so many 460s for sale in that year range).
I’ll also echo what others have said and tell you to shoot for an ‘04-‘06. The 6-speed in the ‘04-‘06 models is more lively than the 5-speed in the 01-03s. A few other noteworthy features found in ‘04-‘06 models are the SmartAccess smart key that is veeeery handy (never have to take the key out of your pocket to lock/unlock doors, open the trunk, and start the car), better headlights and LED tail lights, slightly redesigned (better looking) front end and rear bumper, better Mark Levinson stereo, retuned suspension for standard and sport models, and cooled front seats.
As for options, as I said above, I opted for the “Euro Tuned Sport Suspension” since the regular/standard suspension was just a little too ‘floaty’ and ‘wallowy’ for my taste. Granted the LS is far from a true sports car, I still like to take the occasional highway ramp quickly and don’t want to bottom out the suspension on one side and feel like I’m on 2 wheels. The car also feels more stable and ‘nailed down’ at high speed on the highway. Another plus with the sport suspension is larger wheels and tires... on ‘04-‘06 models the standard tire size is 225/55/17 and 245/45/18 with the sport suspension (the larger size was optional on all models ‘04+ even without sport suspension). For ‘01-‘03 models standard was 225/60/16 and 225/55/17 for sport suspension and optional on all others as well. Wider tires not only mean more lateral traction in turns, but also shorter stopping distance in panic braking situations. Personally, I feel the sport suspension is the perfect blend of a soft, supple, and compliant ride that has slightly less body roll/nose dive/squatting compared to the standard. This is totally subjective and strictly a matter of personal preference. There are many here that have driven both the standard and sport suspensions and opted for the standard. I’ll admit that you can feel the small imperfections in the road a little more with the sport suspension - like ripples, expansion joints, and small potholes - but that also can be a good thing if you ever drive more ‘spiritedly’ like I do and feeling slightly more feedback through the steering wheel is a plus since you can feel what the tires are doing more readily when pushing this land yacht around turns. I’d say a large reason why you can feel those smaller imperfections in the road is mostly due to the shorter, stiffer sidewalls of the 45 series tires vs the 55 or 60 series tires that come standard. I’ve read a few posts from members that bought a sport suspension equipped car and swapped the tires for ones with larger/softer sidewalls and were pleased with the slightly more responsive handling that the sport suspension provides, but without the steering wheel feedback of the shorter sidewall tires.
As you may or may not know, there is a third suspension type that was available on the LS430... the variable air suspension which was only found in UL (Ultra Luxury) models. UL models are the ones that are decked out for the rear passengers. They have the reclining rear seats that are heated and cooled (others are just heated for rear passengers) with massage, beverage cooler behind the armrest, radio controls in the center armrest, and manual side window sunshades for rear passengers. The air suspension came with all UL equipped cars and I avoided it like the plague. While it’s cool to be able to change the ride height and suspension stiffness at the push of a button, the ride still was very ‘floaty’ and ‘wallowy’ even in the “sport” mode. The reason I avoided the air suspension like a dirty kid at bath time is because like all air suspensions, the air struts will inevitably start leaking air and need to be replaced. At ~$1500 per corner for air struts vs $260 for standard struts and $230 for sport struts (all non-discounted OEM prices), there was no way I was going to pay $4,000-$6,000 just for parts when the day arrived that I needed to replace them.
When it comes to service history... if the car has been serviced at any Lexus dealership in the country, it’s entire service history will be available at any other dealership nationwide. If it’s been serviced at an indie shop, I hope the glovebox is overflowing with receipts.
And lastly, as I’ve done with every LS before buying it, I highly, highly suggest bringing any perspective purchase to a Lexus dealership for a pre-purchase inspection. It’s the best $120-$220 (depending on the dealer) you can spend. They’ll perform an extensive and thorough inspection of the car and all of it’s systems. They’ll test all the power windows, sunroof, mirrors, seat adjustments and seat heat, exterior lights, air conditioning, radio, etc. They’ll check to see if the timing belt has been replaced if it’s not listed in the Lexus service history if the car hasn’t been serviced at a dealership. They’ll look for signs of repaired accident damage that might have gone unreported and doesn’t show up on a car fax. They’ll inspect for fluid leaks and check fluid levels and condition. They’ll inspect for worn out/cracked suspension bushings (common on these cars especially after 12-15 years on the road). They’ll measure brake pad thickness and brake rotor condition. They’ll even take it for a test drive to make sure it drives and sounds like it should. In my experience, more often than not, the cost of the PPI will even be covered by the seller if it’s being sold by an independent used car dealer. Most importantly - if the seller doesn’t want to let you take the car to be inspected before you buy it, DO NOT BUY THE CAR!!! If there’s nothing wrong with the car, there’s no reason why they should have any problem with you getting it inspected. If it’s being sold by a private party and they’re just skiddish about you not returning with the car and running off with it, offer some sort of collateral to make it obvious that you’ll return, like the keys to your car you drove to meet them in or something else of value. Otherwise, offer to meet them at the dealer in your car and just have them drive the LS to the dealer for the inspection.
I’ll also echo what others have said and tell you to shoot for an ‘04-‘06. The 6-speed in the ‘04-‘06 models is more lively than the 5-speed in the 01-03s. A few other noteworthy features found in ‘04-‘06 models are the SmartAccess smart key that is veeeery handy (never have to take the key out of your pocket to lock/unlock doors, open the trunk, and start the car), better headlights and LED tail lights, slightly redesigned (better looking) front end and rear bumper, better Mark Levinson stereo, retuned suspension for standard and sport models, and cooled front seats.
As for options, as I said above, I opted for the “Euro Tuned Sport Suspension” since the regular/standard suspension was just a little too ‘floaty’ and ‘wallowy’ for my taste. Granted the LS is far from a true sports car, I still like to take the occasional highway ramp quickly and don’t want to bottom out the suspension on one side and feel like I’m on 2 wheels. The car also feels more stable and ‘nailed down’ at high speed on the highway. Another plus with the sport suspension is larger wheels and tires... on ‘04-‘06 models the standard tire size is 225/55/17 and 245/45/18 with the sport suspension (the larger size was optional on all models ‘04+ even without sport suspension). For ‘01-‘03 models standard was 225/60/16 and 225/55/17 for sport suspension and optional on all others as well. Wider tires not only mean more lateral traction in turns, but also shorter stopping distance in panic braking situations. Personally, I feel the sport suspension is the perfect blend of a soft, supple, and compliant ride that has slightly less body roll/nose dive/squatting compared to the standard. This is totally subjective and strictly a matter of personal preference. There are many here that have driven both the standard and sport suspensions and opted for the standard. I’ll admit that you can feel the small imperfections in the road a little more with the sport suspension - like ripples, expansion joints, and small potholes - but that also can be a good thing if you ever drive more ‘spiritedly’ like I do and feeling slightly more feedback through the steering wheel is a plus since you can feel what the tires are doing more readily when pushing this land yacht around turns. I’d say a large reason why you can feel those smaller imperfections in the road is mostly due to the shorter, stiffer sidewalls of the 45 series tires vs the 55 or 60 series tires that come standard. I’ve read a few posts from members that bought a sport suspension equipped car and swapped the tires for ones with larger/softer sidewalls and were pleased with the slightly more responsive handling that the sport suspension provides, but without the steering wheel feedback of the shorter sidewall tires.
As you may or may not know, there is a third suspension type that was available on the LS430... the variable air suspension which was only found in UL (Ultra Luxury) models. UL models are the ones that are decked out for the rear passengers. They have the reclining rear seats that are heated and cooled (others are just heated for rear passengers) with massage, beverage cooler behind the armrest, radio controls in the center armrest, and manual side window sunshades for rear passengers. The air suspension came with all UL equipped cars and I avoided it like the plague. While it’s cool to be able to change the ride height and suspension stiffness at the push of a button, the ride still was very ‘floaty’ and ‘wallowy’ even in the “sport” mode. The reason I avoided the air suspension like a dirty kid at bath time is because like all air suspensions, the air struts will inevitably start leaking air and need to be replaced. At ~$1500 per corner for air struts vs $260 for standard struts and $230 for sport struts (all non-discounted OEM prices), there was no way I was going to pay $4,000-$6,000 just for parts when the day arrived that I needed to replace them.
When it comes to service history... if the car has been serviced at any Lexus dealership in the country, it’s entire service history will be available at any other dealership nationwide. If it’s been serviced at an indie shop, I hope the glovebox is overflowing with receipts.
And lastly, as I’ve done with every LS before buying it, I highly, highly suggest bringing any perspective purchase to a Lexus dealership for a pre-purchase inspection. It’s the best $120-$220 (depending on the dealer) you can spend. They’ll perform an extensive and thorough inspection of the car and all of it’s systems. They’ll test all the power windows, sunroof, mirrors, seat adjustments and seat heat, exterior lights, air conditioning, radio, etc. They’ll check to see if the timing belt has been replaced if it’s not listed in the Lexus service history if the car hasn’t been serviced at a dealership. They’ll look for signs of repaired accident damage that might have gone unreported and doesn’t show up on a car fax. They’ll inspect for fluid leaks and check fluid levels and condition. They’ll inspect for worn out/cracked suspension bushings (common on these cars especially after 12-15 years on the road). They’ll measure brake pad thickness and brake rotor condition. They’ll even take it for a test drive to make sure it drives and sounds like it should. In my experience, more often than not, the cost of the PPI will even be covered by the seller if it’s being sold by an independent used car dealer. Most importantly - if the seller doesn’t want to let you take the car to be inspected before you buy it, DO NOT BUY THE CAR!!! If there’s nothing wrong with the car, there’s no reason why they should have any problem with you getting it inspected. If it’s being sold by a private party and they’re just skiddish about you not returning with the car and running off with it, offer some sort of collateral to make it obvious that you’ll return, like the keys to your car you drove to meet them in or something else of value. Otherwise, offer to meet them at the dealer in your car and just have them drive the LS to the dealer for the inspection.
Last edited by Mbodall; 06-12-18 at 08:57 AM.
#23
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Mbodall,
Much obliged for that intricate information. You gave me a load of ammunition, which of course will assist me in making a wise purchasing decision.
Spoke to a gentleman @ a dealership today who called from out of state. He has supposedly a 1-owner 05 LS430 with 34k and they want $15k for it.
Owned by a lil old lady & bulletproof glass...
BTW...on an 04-06 with books & records, passes pre-sale inspection what is the max on miles that you guys would entertain?
Later,
Reg
Much obliged for that intricate information. You gave me a load of ammunition, which of course will assist me in making a wise purchasing decision.
Spoke to a gentleman @ a dealership today who called from out of state. He has supposedly a 1-owner 05 LS430 with 34k and they want $15k for it.
Owned by a lil old lady & bulletproof glass...
BTW...on an 04-06 with books & records, passes pre-sale inspection what is the max on miles that you guys would entertain?
Later,
Reg
#24
I’ll also echo what others have said and tell you to shoot for an ‘04-‘06. The 6-speed in the ‘04-‘06 models is more lively than the 5-speed in the 01-03s. A few other noteworthy features found in ‘04-‘06 models are the SmartAccess smart key that is veeeery handy (never have to take the key out of your pocket to lock/unlock doors, open the trunk, and start the car), better headlights and LED tail lights, slightly redesigned (better looking) front end and rear bumper, better Mark Levinson stereo, retuned suspension for standard and sport models, and cooled front seats.
As for options, as I said above, I opted for the “Euro Tuned Sport Suspension” since the regular/standard suspension was just a little too ‘floaty’ and ‘wallowy’ for my taste. Granted the LS is far from a true sports car, I still like to take the occasional highway ramp quickly and don’t want to bottom out the suspension on one side and feel like I’m on 2 wheels. The car also feels more stable and ‘nailed down’ at high speed on the highway. Another plus with the sport suspension is larger wheels and tires... on ‘04-‘06 models the standard tire size is 225/55/17 and 245/45/18 with the sport suspension (the larger size was optional on all models ‘04+ even without sport suspension). For ‘01-‘03 models standard was 225/60/16 and 225/55/17 for sport suspension and optional on all others as well.
As for options, as I said above, I opted for the “Euro Tuned Sport Suspension” since the regular/standard suspension was just a little too ‘floaty’ and ‘wallowy’ for my taste. Granted the LS is far from a true sports car, I still like to take the occasional highway ramp quickly and don’t want to bottom out the suspension on one side and feel like I’m on 2 wheels. The car also feels more stable and ‘nailed down’ at high speed on the highway. Another plus with the sport suspension is larger wheels and tires... on ‘04-‘06 models the standard tire size is 225/55/17 and 245/45/18 with the sport suspension (the larger size was optional on all models ‘04+ even without sport suspension). For ‘01-‘03 models standard was 225/60/16 and 225/55/17 for sport suspension and optional on all others as well.
Thanks for sharing about the sport suspension. I know the sport version has different springs and sway bar, but did not realize it has wider tires. I may need to update this first. My 04 has this chrome wheels that is a bit too shiny for me.
#25
The ideal 'sweet spot' for me when I was looking for my '04 in 2014-2015 was right around 100k miles +/- 10k-15k. When I found my car and saw that it had 97k miles on it, I jumped on it... after it passed it's inspection at the dealer, of course
And you're very welcome. If I can share some of my knowledge, experience, and opinions with someone else to help them also buy the best automobile ever built, I'm a happy man :
Last edited by Mbodall; 06-13-18 at 05:44 AM.
The following users liked this post:
ReggieT (06-12-18)
#26
As you may or may not know, there is a third suspension type that was available on the LS430... the variable air suspension which was only found in UL (Ultra Luxury) models. UL models are the ones that are decked out for the rear passengers. They have the reclining rear seats that are heated and cooled (others are just heated for rear passengers) with massage, beverage cooler behind the armrest, radio controls in the center armrest, and manual side window sunshades for rear passengers. The air suspension came with all UL equipped cars and I avoided it like the plague. While it’s cool to be able to change the ride height and suspension stiffness at the push of a button, the ride still was very ‘floaty’ and ‘wallowy’ even in the “sport” mode. The reason I avoided the air suspension like a dirty kid at bath time is because like all air suspensions, the air struts will inevitably start leaking air and need to be replaced. At ~$1500 per corner for air struts vs $260 for standard struts and $230 for sport struts (all non-discounted OEM prices), there was no way I was going to pay $4,000-$6,000 just for parts when the day arrived that I needed to replace them.
#27
The air suspension came on the UL only, giveaway is the height adjustment buttons immediately in front of the tranny gear selector at the bottom of the center console. Another clue, if the car does not have NAV and backup camera screen it does not have air suspension.
The following users liked this post:
ReggieT (06-13-18)
#28
Lexus Champion
You can also look for the A/C discharge vents for the back seat passengers. They're above the rear doors in the headliner. There's also preset buttons for the rear seats on the rear doors (3 for each door).
#29
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Hey guys,
How about the "Arnott/Strutmaster air suspension to coil struts" packages on the LS 430 cars that have the air suspension?
Anybody have any experiences or thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Reg
How about the "Arnott/Strutmaster air suspension to coil struts" packages on the LS 430 cars that have the air suspension?
Anybody have any experiences or thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Reg
#30
From a quick search here, it appears that Arnott only makes replacements for the front (as of 6 months ago), and they're still $600 each. Also, the Arnott struts aren't adjustable height nor variable damping (firmness). Here is a quote from an email that one of our members received from Arnott:
The difference between ours and the OE, and the reason it comes with a bypass resistor, is that these replacements are custom-valved non electronic shock absorbers. The original Lexus factory struts have electronic dampening, meaning that the cars computer tells the shock absorber to stiffen or soften depending on how fast you are driving, how bumpy the road is, etc. Ours are one static damping rate at all times like other standard shock absorbers and the bypass resistor/sensor is used so that you do not get any “service suspension” lights on your dash board..
And regardless of whether you swap for different air suspension or coilovers, it's going to be a major undertaking to change them, especially in the rear. I just read that you have to take the back seat out and rear deck lid... basically completely tear the back end of your car out to change them. So either you're going to have a hell of a lot of work for yourself, or you're going to pay a boatload of money to have someone else do the excessive amount of labor.
Last edited by Mbodall; 06-14-18 at 03:24 AM.