Johnhav430

I think both sides of the camp make sense--what I would prefer is an oil life monitor, like in our other two cars, with my wife's 2011 being imho the most sophisticated. I've seen it tell us to change in 4k, when she worked only 1.3 miles from home. The vehicle NEVER had a chance to warm up. Then, when were using the car to visit in-laws who live 90 miles away, regularly, that interval went over 7k. So it demonstrated to me, there's something behind it. I guess our cars were made (2001) at a time before there was such monitoring, so I believe 5k was engineers and marketers getting together and deciding what made engineering sense, and what made service revenue sense, combined. My consolation is that the synthetic oil change is $25-$26, minus a $10-$12 rebate, plus a $7 filter. At the high end, $23. By not going 7,500, $11.50 is wasted. By not going 10,000, $23 is wasted. Not the end of the world, because the vehicle doesn't even require synthetic, one could say using synthetic is going against what Toyota engineers vehemently stated, that on Lexus cars, there is absolutely no benefit to synthetic, up to 500,000 miles. I guess I'll continue to walk on the wild side and dip my toes in the water, and push it 5,500 to if I feel even wilder, 6,000...lol

airchomper

I use synthetic oil and go ~10k miles or once a year (whichever comes first). But 70% of my trips are at least 20 miles and I drive gently.

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Can you produce a source?

campisi

A somewhat more apt analogy would be like changing a baby's diaper every 10 minutes even though he hasn't crapped or pissed it. You just change it because you think it makes him/her a better baby. Hey, nothing's too good for my baby, right?

TTBomB

iTrader: (2)

Per Amsoil's website:
AMSOIL XL Synthetic Motor Oil is formulated with extended-drain boost technology. It provides superior performance for up to 10,000-miles/six months, or longer when recommended in owners’ manuals or indicated by electronic oil life monitoring systems.
I am skeptical of claims and was always changing it out at 5k... i know crazy.
I then got my 1st analysis done at 6k, great results.
Then at 8k, also good results.
I may try to push to 10k and get another analysis done, just so I know and also so I can pass onto the info to others.
Even if that comes back good, I would still probably stop at 10k no matter what.

Johnhav430

The source was Toyota Motor, I wish I could find/post the pdf...this came about because people were saying, BMW charges over $100 sometimes $160 like on Greenwich CT (prices have come way way down) for an oil change, and Lexus charges the same amount, and doesn't even use synthetic. There was a link to a dissertation by Toyota stating synth is unnecessary and this has been concluded, it has no benefit up to 500,000 miles. This likely did not apply to turbocharged motors, as that became widespread, we've seen even Japanese using it. The Acura RDX at one time was the only Acura that came filled from the factory with synth. Car mfgs. have gotten smart in not letting you and me grab their internal docs from the web so easily like the early 2000's. BMW goes as far as blocking Alldata.

BradTank

I'd love to actually see this as I would bet that conclusion was for something very specific and not looking at the big picture.

It's not really an issue of contention anymore that synthetic oil has benefits across the board, flows better at low temperature, less friction, less heat, lasts longer, less deposits, less sludge, better mpgs, on and on.

To me, just the benefit of longer drain intervals versus conventional oil means it pays for itself with all the other benefits an added bonus.

Basically every automaker has embraced synthetic oils and fluids, so they have come to the conclusion its more than just snake oil.

Johnhav430

Agreed...Germans seem to have embraced it first, but now many believe it's the CAFE regs that are pushing the quest for mpgs across a fleet. If you look at how crazy (or detailed) the Germans are, M cars have always had their own oil. $15,$17 qt., whatever. But now the lower end cars, like a 320i, has its own oil. Sure, it's 4 cyl., but so is a 328, which uses the same oil as the rest of the cars, like a 6 cyl. 335. Now they are playing games too with the numbers, I don't think there is a 328 anymore, it's probably 330 and 340, maybe 322 lol

Pretty sure Toyota was looking at it from a pure scientific and economic perspective, meaning, marginal benefit < marginal cost, up to 500,000 miles. They did not dispute that synth flows better at cold temps, etc. Just that it had no benefit for the first 500,000 miles on a motor. I couldn't tell you how much dino juice costs today, I feel totally comfortable buying a $25-$26 jug of oil, and getting a $10-$12 rebate, and using full synthetic. A purist could say your car is a 2006, it was not filled with such from the factory, any dino juice changed at the right interval is good enough. They would not be wrong...

JffGRY706

Lexus dealer charges $3.25 qt.

airchomper

I wouldn't hold my breath on that report.

Here's some research out of Honda that shows their thinking on 0w-20 (which is only available as a synthetic):
http://papers.sae.org/1999-01-3468/

Without optimization, they get a fuel economy benefit on 0w-20 (relative to 5w-30) and they talk about an ultra low viscosity oil and running it in an engine that's optimized for it. Apparently there's efficacy because Honda uses 0w-15 in some applications:
http://www.eneos.us/news/eneos-news/...on-technology/

The opinion I've come to (which is evidence informed but not evidenced based) is that you can get away with really thin oils if they're 'slippery' enough - the Japanese manufacturers seem to favor molybdenum as the additive to prevent metal on metal contact.

I ran 0w-20 in my LS and got great wear numbers out of it, but the viscosity was below my comfort zone after about 6,000 miles. So I moved to a 30-grade oil for the extended OCI benefits.

Back to the Toyota study. I've only seen one about engine oil and I recall it was an SAE paper about the oil/coolant temperature control scheme in the first or second gen Prius. As I remember it, the paper stated something to the effect that the majority of engine wear happens during warm up, not during cruise or start-up and the paper was about establishing what a good operating temperature is and how to balance fuel savings from start/stop with the desire to keep the engine warm. Their study was whether or not the engine that simulated a few hundred thousand miles/kms of city driving with their start/stop control scheme would have an acceptable amount of wear. I believe that they concluded the wear was acceptable from conventional and synthetic oil (and maybe that the wear was indistinguishable, but if I remember it right they never compared the results between the oils, just that both oils met expectations - so maybe I'm recalling something that's not related to what John remembers). However, they definitely changed the conventional oil more frequently so caveat emptor.

jayclapp

Unfortunately, we don't know what we don't know.

Johnhav430

This is 4 years ago, and states that Toyota was stretching the interval to 10k (through synthetic). but it is amazing, that at least online and at Lexus drivers, cars of our vintage require service every 5,000, not just oil, but a list of other things to check....I'm going to cheat it up to 6k, and maybe up to 7.5k. I doubt my commute is severe, but again, it would be nice to have the interval be based on conditions....

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/tip...-your-oil.html

Johnhav430

I wish everything were so readily available online, like it was 15 years ago...I distinctly also remember a GM study regarding brake pad materials, and learning how a groan is very different than a squeal, etc., and from that, I concluded that mfgs. research materials because they don't want to have warranty complaints on the braking related to sounds, etc. Also a K&N debunk study (that was awesome because I had bought into the K&N snake oil).....if I were to apply only common sense, using the cheapest oil that meets the standards from 2006, and changing it every 5k, likely works just as well as Mobil 1 and Pennzoil Platinum....but who here cannot afford $26-$10 per 5 qt jug, so it's not necessary to seek out the cheapest.....my .02

p.s. I almost wonder if on bitog, there may be something related to what I recall about Toyota and the 500k on dino juice....

BradTank

What concerns me about the manufacturers going to the really thin oils is that it's done to eek out a few tenths more in mpgs for CAFE compliance and I think it comes at the expense of engine protection over the long haul.

I personally would NEVER use 0w-20 oil in my LS. What is the reasoning for using that weight? Is it fuel economy?

jimisbell

Here's some research out of Honda that shows their thinking on 0w-20 (which is only available as a synthetic):

This statement is not true. I used 0W-20 in my Honda Insight. It is NOT a synthetic. It gets me 7MPG more than heavier oils. The engine has used this oil for 270,000 miles and it is not wearing abnormally. And, in fact, I would say that 270K miles is evidence that its not wearing because the only things I had to do to the car were, 12V battery, and tires. I sold that car a year ago and the new owner is still getting 60 mpg around town and much better on the road. On one 150 mile trip going west from Phoenix I got 115 MPG.

airchomper

You can still buy vehicles that don't really make CAFE concessions (i.e the Land Cruiser) but I agree, there's probably a lot of 'false economy' going on now - although I'm more apt to challenge transmission choices than oil weight.

Two-fold reasoning on 0w-20
1. Toyota Genuine 0w-20 is about the thinnest oil in the world at 0 degrees and I was starting in 0-10 degrees about 10 times/wk. I was interested in the protection.

2. 20 oil has about the same viscosity as worn-but-not-worn-out 30 oil, as long as the 20 oil didn't shear too badly, the engine wouldn't really know the difference (from a viscosity perspective). My UOA at 6k miles showed that the 20 oil was getting thin but stil providing adequate protection.

I run 0w30 now because I can run it in all the cars in my family and it's cheaper to buy than Toyota Genuine 0w20.

Serves me right for not adding this disclaimer in my post - nearly all 0w20s are advertised as synthetics (or synthetic blends) but people disagree on what qualifies as a true synthetic. I don't know where you got the oil for your Insight but the Honda dealer oil is least a group 3 oil and they used a similar additive package to Toyota's / Mazda's 0w20 (i.e super high moly). I think Exxon provided the base stocks for all 3 at some time but I could be mistaken.

But I'm very interested in 0w20 that's branded as a conventional oil, could you maybe link to where you got it? do you recall the brand?


Lastly, I do run K&Ns in my car. I don't think it filters any better than anything else (in fact, there are usually better filters) but it does a good enough job and I usually pop a K&N in my air intake and forget about it. The advantage to me is the long life rather than 'superior filtration' that doesn't really exist in conventional car applications.