Have an '04, spent a week in a '12
01-01-17, 02:39 PM
#1
Pole Position
Thread Starter
Have an '04, spent a week in a '12
A very common topic here and the 4th gen forum is folks with our gen looking to find their next ride and wondering if a 4th gen is the solution. I almost bought a '12 over the summer but bailed at the last minute because the car felt too similar to mine (15 minute test drive).
Thought I would share some feedback after spending a week riding in and driving a 2012 LS 460 over the holidays (in-laws car). Some background: I have a 2004 LS430 with 245k miles- I don't know what package I have (I don't have Levinson or nav) and I upgraded to the 18" 5 star rims. Has been incredibly reliable and trouble free since I've owned it (175k miles worth). Prior to my '04, I had a '96 LS and prior to that spent quite a bit of time with a '92 LS. My in-laws are Lexus people also and recently upgraded from a 2006 LS to a 2012 LS (dark grey, tan interior, 43k miles, no Levinson, has 19" 5 star wheels).
I drove the 2012 around town for a few days in sun, rain and also on the highway in decent conditions for about a 100 mile trip. Thoughts:
- The engine feels way different. A lot more torque feeling to me- also I think having 8 gears helps create a very different sensation. I noticed a few times little or no hesitation in acceleration as the car quickly found the proper gear and offered quick acceleration (on-ramps mainly).
- Engine is slightly louder, but I think if I was out of my 2004 for a couple of weeks I would forget the difference
- There were times where it didn't feel like a V8 to me. Not quite a V6, but maybe a V7..??!! I don't know why, but it just felt slightly less "substantial". Again, my frames of reference are a 92, 96, and now 04 LS. Those 3 engines felt very similar to me. This one felt different.
- To the point above, the entire car felt "lighter" or "less substantial" to me. Most of this I mean in a good way as the car feels way more nimble.
- Road noise at 70mph to 80mph seemed less than in my 2004 (and the 2012 had larger rims than my car)
- Road noise around town seemed the same or maybe less than my 2004
- My '04 doesn't have the updated transmission ECU software, so my car coasts down hills in the same gear instead of down shifting. The '12 downshifts effortlessly and many times I never had to press the brake to make a turn- I just took my foot off the gas far enough in advance and the car did the rest. Those with '05's and '06's may not notice a difference, but I definitely did.
- The '12 has substantially (and I mean substantially) less body roll on turns at every speed.
- Styling- I have always loved the '10-'12 with the 5 star rims. Would classify it as a "dream car" ever since it was released.
- Interior- I like the minimalistic style of my '04 (no nav), but enjoyed having a back up cam in the '12. We have a 2010 LX and the interior of the '12 LS was virtually identical to that, so it was very familiar to me. I found the seats to be very comfortable and liked the driving position. Was also very comfortable in the back seat as a passenger.
In summary, I wouldn't hesitate to transition to a '10-'12. I do wish the '12 had more tech in it and a refreshed interior (like the '13's which I don't want to pay that much $$ for, and honestly prefer the exterior styling of the '10-'12 better). I think if I drove the '04 and the '12 back to back there would be some things about the feel of the engine in my '04 that I like better, but that won't be my situation as I will be trading up. As the price of the '10's and beyond start to fall, I'm not sure there's a better bang-for-your buck to replace a 3rd gen.
Thought I would share some feedback after spending a week riding in and driving a 2012 LS 460 over the holidays (in-laws car). Some background: I have a 2004 LS430 with 245k miles- I don't know what package I have (I don't have Levinson or nav) and I upgraded to the 18" 5 star rims. Has been incredibly reliable and trouble free since I've owned it (175k miles worth). Prior to my '04, I had a '96 LS and prior to that spent quite a bit of time with a '92 LS. My in-laws are Lexus people also and recently upgraded from a 2006 LS to a 2012 LS (dark grey, tan interior, 43k miles, no Levinson, has 19" 5 star wheels).
I drove the 2012 around town for a few days in sun, rain and also on the highway in decent conditions for about a 100 mile trip. Thoughts:
- The engine feels way different. A lot more torque feeling to me- also I think having 8 gears helps create a very different sensation. I noticed a few times little or no hesitation in acceleration as the car quickly found the proper gear and offered quick acceleration (on-ramps mainly).
- Engine is slightly louder, but I think if I was out of my 2004 for a couple of weeks I would forget the difference
- There were times where it didn't feel like a V8 to me. Not quite a V6, but maybe a V7..??!! I don't know why, but it just felt slightly less "substantial". Again, my frames of reference are a 92, 96, and now 04 LS. Those 3 engines felt very similar to me. This one felt different.
- To the point above, the entire car felt "lighter" or "less substantial" to me. Most of this I mean in a good way as the car feels way more nimble.
- Road noise at 70mph to 80mph seemed less than in my 2004 (and the 2012 had larger rims than my car)
- Road noise around town seemed the same or maybe less than my 2004
- My '04 doesn't have the updated transmission ECU software, so my car coasts down hills in the same gear instead of down shifting. The '12 downshifts effortlessly and many times I never had to press the brake to make a turn- I just took my foot off the gas far enough in advance and the car did the rest. Those with '05's and '06's may not notice a difference, but I definitely did.
- The '12 has substantially (and I mean substantially) less body roll on turns at every speed.
- Styling- I have always loved the '10-'12 with the 5 star rims. Would classify it as a "dream car" ever since it was released.
- Interior- I like the minimalistic style of my '04 (no nav), but enjoyed having a back up cam in the '12. We have a 2010 LX and the interior of the '12 LS was virtually identical to that, so it was very familiar to me. I found the seats to be very comfortable and liked the driving position. Was also very comfortable in the back seat as a passenger.
In summary, I wouldn't hesitate to transition to a '10-'12. I do wish the '12 had more tech in it and a refreshed interior (like the '13's which I don't want to pay that much $$ for, and honestly prefer the exterior styling of the '10-'12 better). I think if I drove the '04 and the '12 back to back there would be some things about the feel of the engine in my '04 that I like better, but that won't be my situation as I will be trading up. As the price of the '10's and beyond start to fall, I'm not sure there's a better bang-for-your buck to replace a 3rd gen.
01-01-17, 07:46 PM
#2
Racer
A very common topic here and the 4th gen forum is folks with our gen looking to find their next ride and wondering if a 4th gen is the solution. I almost bought a '12 over the summer but bailed at the last minute because the car felt too similar to mine (15 minute test drive).
Thought I would share some feedback after spending a week riding in and driving a 2012 LS 460 over the holidays (in-laws car). Some background: I have a 2004 LS430 with 245k miles- I don't know what package I have (I don't have Levinson or nav) and I upgraded to the 18" 5 star rims. Has been incredibly reliable and trouble free since I've owned it (175k miles worth). Prior to my '04, I had a '96 LS and prior to that spent quite a bit of time with a '92 LS. My in-laws are Lexus people also and recently upgraded from a 2006 LS to a 2012 LS (dark grey, tan interior, 43k miles, no Levinson, has 19" 5 star wheels).
I drove the 2012 around town for a few days in sun, rain and also on the highway in decent conditions for about a 100 mile trip. Thoughts:
- The engine feels way different. A lot more torque feeling to me- also I think having 8 gears helps create a very different sensation. I noticed a few times little or no hesitation in acceleration as the car quickly found the proper gear and offered quick acceleration (on-ramps mainly).
- Engine is slightly louder, but I think if I was out of my 2004 for a couple of weeks I would forget the difference
- There were times where it didn't feel like a V8 to me. Not quite a V6, but maybe a V7..??!! I don't know why, but it just felt slightly less "substantial". Again, my frames of reference are a 92, 96, and now 04 LS. Those 3 engines felt very similar to me. This one felt different.
- To the point above, the entire car felt "lighter" or "less substantial" to me. Most of this I mean in a good way as the car feels way more nimble.
- Road noise at 70mph to 80mph seemed less than in my 2004 (and the 2012 had larger rims than my car)
- Road noise around town seemed the same or maybe less than my 2004
- My '04 doesn't have the updated transmission ECU software, so my car coasts down hills in the same gear instead of down shifting. The '12 downshifts effortlessly and many times I never had to press the brake to make a turn- I just took my foot off the gas far enough in advance and the car did the rest. Those with '05's and '06's may not notice a difference, but I definitely did.
- The '12 has substantially (and I mean substantially) less body roll on turns at every speed.
- Styling- I have always loved the '10-'12 with the 5 star rims. Would classify it as a "dream car" ever since it was released.
- Interior- I like the minimalistic style of my '04 (no nav), but enjoyed having a back up cam in the '12. We have a 2010 LX and the interior of the '12 LS was virtually identical to that, so it was very familiar to me. I found the seats to be very comfortable and liked the driving position. Was also very comfortable in the back seat as a passenger.
In summary, I wouldn't hesitate to transition to a '10-'12. I do wish the '12 had more tech in it and a refreshed interior (like the '13's which I don't want to pay that much $$ for, and honestly prefer the exterior styling of the '10-'12 better). I think if I drove the '04 and the '12 back to back there would be some things about the feel of the engine in my '04 that I like better, but that won't be my situation as I will be trading up. As the price of the '10's and beyond start to fall, I'm not sure there's a better bang-for-your buck to replace a 3rd gen.
Thought I would share some feedback after spending a week riding in and driving a 2012 LS 460 over the holidays (in-laws car). Some background: I have a 2004 LS430 with 245k miles- I don't know what package I have (I don't have Levinson or nav) and I upgraded to the 18" 5 star rims. Has been incredibly reliable and trouble free since I've owned it (175k miles worth). Prior to my '04, I had a '96 LS and prior to that spent quite a bit of time with a '92 LS. My in-laws are Lexus people also and recently upgraded from a 2006 LS to a 2012 LS (dark grey, tan interior, 43k miles, no Levinson, has 19" 5 star wheels).
I drove the 2012 around town for a few days in sun, rain and also on the highway in decent conditions for about a 100 mile trip. Thoughts:
- The engine feels way different. A lot more torque feeling to me- also I think having 8 gears helps create a very different sensation. I noticed a few times little or no hesitation in acceleration as the car quickly found the proper gear and offered quick acceleration (on-ramps mainly).
- Engine is slightly louder, but I think if I was out of my 2004 for a couple of weeks I would forget the difference
- There were times where it didn't feel like a V8 to me. Not quite a V6, but maybe a V7..??!! I don't know why, but it just felt slightly less "substantial". Again, my frames of reference are a 92, 96, and now 04 LS. Those 3 engines felt very similar to me. This one felt different.
- To the point above, the entire car felt "lighter" or "less substantial" to me. Most of this I mean in a good way as the car feels way more nimble.
- Road noise at 70mph to 80mph seemed less than in my 2004 (and the 2012 had larger rims than my car)
- Road noise around town seemed the same or maybe less than my 2004
- My '04 doesn't have the updated transmission ECU software, so my car coasts down hills in the same gear instead of down shifting. The '12 downshifts effortlessly and many times I never had to press the brake to make a turn- I just took my foot off the gas far enough in advance and the car did the rest. Those with '05's and '06's may not notice a difference, but I definitely did.
- The '12 has substantially (and I mean substantially) less body roll on turns at every speed.
- Styling- I have always loved the '10-'12 with the 5 star rims. Would classify it as a "dream car" ever since it was released.
- Interior- I like the minimalistic style of my '04 (no nav), but enjoyed having a back up cam in the '12. We have a 2010 LX and the interior of the '12 LS was virtually identical to that, so it was very familiar to me. I found the seats to be very comfortable and liked the driving position. Was also very comfortable in the back seat as a passenger.
In summary, I wouldn't hesitate to transition to a '10-'12. I do wish the '12 had more tech in it and a refreshed interior (like the '13's which I don't want to pay that much $$ for, and honestly prefer the exterior styling of the '10-'12 better). I think if I drove the '04 and the '12 back to back there would be some things about the feel of the engine in my '04 that I like better, but that won't be my situation as I will be trading up. As the price of the '10's and beyond start to fall, I'm not sure there's a better bang-for-your buck to replace a 3rd gen.
01-02-17, 05:50 AM
#3
Lexus Fanatic
I believe that spending an extended time period in a car is a great way to know how one would feel about having it long term. I drove the LS430 all of about 10 min., so believe it or not, I didn't even catch that the brakes pulsated, I guess because I didn't push down hard on the brakes. The only thing I noticed off the bat was the hood struts not holding the hood and the pass mirror having difficulty adjusting (still does but it can be set if one is patient). Missed the non functional driver door actuator and high mount light being out and rear sunshade. Dealer fixed the big ones like brakes and door actuator, I did the high mount and struts, sunshade left alone.
My next used car purchase I'm going to ask to take the car for 1-2 hours to go over it. If they say no, no dice! lol
Anyhow I was given a 2016 328i awd BMW for 4 mos., and man everytime I get one of those as a loaner, it makes me sad how the car co. has fallen from grace. C&D even saw fit to remove the 3 series from the 10 best list, and it was on like 23 straight years.
My hunch is that I would not like a Ls460, but I wouldn't know that unless I could test drive it for an extended period....
My next used car purchase I'm going to ask to take the car for 1-2 hours to go over it. If they say no, no dice! lol
Anyhow I was given a 2016 328i awd BMW for 4 mos., and man everytime I get one of those as a loaner, it makes me sad how the car co. has fallen from grace. C&D even saw fit to remove the 3 series from the 10 best list, and it was on like 23 straight years.
My hunch is that I would not like a Ls460, but I wouldn't know that unless I could test drive it for an extended period....
01-02-17, 06:33 AM
#4
Pole Position
I had the opposite experience with the 2010 460L I owned. Looked nice and cornered flatter, but that was about it. Stayed in the shop all times, once for over a month. Interior was updated, but cheaper looking and feeling. Leather seems thinner, less durable, and cheap. Some trim piece were plastic and even peeling off the fake chrome. Unacceptable on that type of car with less than 40K miles. Road noise and ride was worse. Engine noise was horrific. That direct injection ticking that I could clearly hear inside the car was unacceptable. Sounded like an 80's MB diesel. And how hard is it to make a glovebox box to close correctly instead of looking like it was about to pop open all the time?
So, I traded back to another 430 and have never regretted it for one second. It's easy to see why the once segment-dominating LS430 is now nothing more than an afterthought in the luxury car market and usually dead last when compared to other luxury flagships. The design team and leadership at Lexus that allowed the 460 to happen like it did should be fired if they haven't been already.
So, I traded back to another 430 and have never regretted it for one second. It's easy to see why the once segment-dominating LS430 is now nothing more than an afterthought in the luxury car market and usually dead last when compared to other luxury flagships. The design team and leadership at Lexus that allowed the 460 to happen like it did should be fired if they haven't been already.
The following 3 users liked this post by Bob04:
01-02-17, 08:23 AM
#5
Lexus Fanatic
I had the opposite experience with the 2010 460L I owned. Looked nice and cornered flatter, but that was about it. Stayed in the shop all times, once for over a month. Interior was updated, but cheaper looking and feeling. Leather seems thinner, less durable, and cheap. Some trim piece were plastic and even peeling off the fake chrome. Unacceptable on that type of car with less than 40K miles. Road noise and ride was worse. Engine noise was horrific. That direct injection ticking that I could clearly hear inside the car was unacceptable. Sounded like an 80's MB diesel. And how hard is it to make a glovebox box to close correctly instead of looking like it was about to pop open all the time?
So, I traded back to another 430 and have never regretted it for one second. It's easy to see why the once segment-dominating LS430 is now nothing more than an afterthought in the luxury car market and usually dead last when compared to other luxury flagships. The design team and leadership at Lexus that allowed the 460 to happen like it did should be fired if they haven't been already.
So, I traded back to another 430 and have never regretted it for one second. It's easy to see why the once segment-dominating LS430 is now nothing more than an afterthought in the luxury car market and usually dead last when compared to other luxury flagships. The design team and leadership at Lexus that allowed the 460 to happen like it did should be fired if they haven't been already.
I know we have to be careful and somewhat politically correct, so I won't mention the model, but I rode in a brand new Lexus and not entry level, and it didn't seem too great as far as the interior went. I think, it's simply economics. Everything was going in with guns blazing until 2008 came along. There's cost-cutting across many car mfgs imho, so today's car does have many more modern features, with better mpgs being king, but there is a lot of hardware gone....
01-02-17, 11:14 AM
#6
Lexus Fanatic
I dunno if this makes any sense....I liked the Infiniti G35S when it came out as a 2007 model. As the years went by, I find every Infiniti product to be unattractive. Coworker just got an 8 cyl AWD flagship car, and I think it's ugly. It's proportions are somehow off, kinda like what I think about a Taurus.
Unfortunately, I find that same bloated look about the 4th gen LS....again, it's just me. Since I'm not in the market and likely will never be, there's no reason for Lexus to care what I think lol
Audi usually gets it right, but look at the A5/S5, imho that was headed towards bloatsville as well....some dude who just reviewed the BMW M2 (late to the game yes) totally gets it, bigger is not necessarily always better, and he said the M2 is in the sweet spot for driving pleasure.
Unfortunately, I find that same bloated look about the 4th gen LS....again, it's just me. Since I'm not in the market and likely will never be, there's no reason for Lexus to care what I think lol
Audi usually gets it right, but look at the A5/S5, imho that was headed towards bloatsville as well....some dude who just reviewed the BMW M2 (late to the game yes) totally gets it, bigger is not necessarily always better, and he said the M2 is in the sweet spot for driving pleasure.
01-02-17, 04:31 PM
#7
Lexus Champion
I drove a 2012 model thoroughly over the summer and I had the opposite experience. A BEAUTIFUL car, but everything felt a step down. Newer and more updated, for sure, but just not the tank my '04 is. I will post my observations from said thread:
Originally Posted by ajt123
I'm not in the market for a new car these days, as my beloved 430 still serves me perfectly well and has absolutely nothing wrong with it....also, most importantly, it's just about paid off. Me likey no car payment. However, I ran across a beautiful silver on gray 2011 LS460 SWB 66k miles with the chromed 19" 5 spoke rims, Navigation and ML.....same color scheme and similar trim (equipped, but not loaded out) as my 430 which is what made me say "what the hell, may as well go look...maybe it's a sign."
I now have thoroughly driven both cars and here are my observations. Like I said, I'm not really in the market right now, had I been I may have taken it home. It was a very nice car.
The '11 LS I looked at is GORGEOUS, thoroughly modern looking, and oh, those rims. I think the 2011-12 mid cycle update is probably my favorite of the 460 trims. Car looked fantastic. Head turner.
I got to drive it alone which was my original plan and was thrilled when the guy handed me the keys and told me to take my time. I ran the hell out of it, and also drove slow just to feel it out.
Bottom line? And I already had this figured out before I even looked at it:
It's not really an upgrade, just newer and more modern looking. An ES to LS is an upgrade. An LS to LS is very similar.
I really liked the car, but not enough to get rid of my 430 I love so much and sign a 5-6 year car note when I'm just about done with my current one. I liked the more modern interior, but it was noticeably less roomy and not quite as plush and comfortable inside. Seats weren't as comfy and plush. Window, lock, and seat memory switches felt cheaper. I immediately missed the swiveling vents and didn't care for the plastic area by the vents and clock. Headliner also felt cheaper. Everything else felt about the same (door thunk, stalk operations, damps in button presses, gear shifter out of P, etc.) I made sure to bring a good, loud CD and while the ML was impressive, I wasn't blown away by it, surprisingly. That's supposed to be one of the best factory systems on the market or so I thought.
The driving experience was mostly the same, also, except the handling was better and I can say the 460 is noticeably faster, though only at the peak end of the rpm range, where you can feel that extra 100 horsepower right toward redline. The 430 has more low end torque and feels better to just putter around in, but make no mistake once the 460 revs out it's noticeably quicker. I've heard on here that the 460 is no faster and can tell you from experience it is; you just have to keep the throttle buried to feel the difference. Just puttering around it didn't feel as torquey. I felt the 8 gears were too many, and it often hunted. Overall I didn't care for the 4.6L vs the 4.3. The nice, subtle 2-2.5k hum ours makes wasn't there, and winding it out it didn't have that ripping silk sound. Also, it's not as smooth as the 4.3 (due to timing chain vs timing belt).--though still plenty smooth, I admit I'm splitting hairs. That said, I'm definitely team UZ.
The cars were about the same road noise wise, though more ambient and wind noise seemed to get in the 460. The 460 did ride very nice, and I was surprised given the lower profile tires and 19" rims. A little more planted to the road it felt, but with that it also had less suspension rebound which I noticed.
Let me be clear by me saying that by no means are these "demerits" towards the 460. Because I say my seats are more comfortable and the leather is plusher, wood shinier, THAT'S NOT me saying the 460 is a bad car. I did enjoy it, and would drive it in a heartbeat. If my car were on its last leg or if I were in the market in general, I may have walked with it. But, like I said, I just don't feel it's really an upgrade from my current car (other than styling and a few modern tweaks), and I sure don't want car payments for 5 more years.
So that's my story for today. I may look for a '13 LS460 years down the road when it actually is time to retire the 430, though who knows when that will be. Like I said I'm not a fan of car payments. I don't think the 460 has a cheap interior at all as some have said, but while more dated looking, the 430 is unquestionably more luxurious inside in my opinion.
I'd post this in the 460 forums (worded differently), but I'm not trying to argue here. Any LS is an amazing car. For some I'm sure, the styling upgrade and just having a newer car are worth it, but not to me. Old faithful still has many years and 200,000 more miles left in her.
I now have thoroughly driven both cars and here are my observations. Like I said, I'm not really in the market right now, had I been I may have taken it home. It was a very nice car.
The '11 LS I looked at is GORGEOUS, thoroughly modern looking, and oh, those rims. I think the 2011-12 mid cycle update is probably my favorite of the 460 trims. Car looked fantastic. Head turner.
I got to drive it alone which was my original plan and was thrilled when the guy handed me the keys and told me to take my time. I ran the hell out of it, and also drove slow just to feel it out.
Bottom line? And I already had this figured out before I even looked at it:
It's not really an upgrade, just newer and more modern looking. An ES to LS is an upgrade. An LS to LS is very similar.
I really liked the car, but not enough to get rid of my 430 I love so much and sign a 5-6 year car note when I'm just about done with my current one. I liked the more modern interior, but it was noticeably less roomy and not quite as plush and comfortable inside. Seats weren't as comfy and plush. Window, lock, and seat memory switches felt cheaper. I immediately missed the swiveling vents and didn't care for the plastic area by the vents and clock. Headliner also felt cheaper. Everything else felt about the same (door thunk, stalk operations, damps in button presses, gear shifter out of P, etc.) I made sure to bring a good, loud CD and while the ML was impressive, I wasn't blown away by it, surprisingly. That's supposed to be one of the best factory systems on the market or so I thought.
The driving experience was mostly the same, also, except the handling was better and I can say the 460 is noticeably faster, though only at the peak end of the rpm range, where you can feel that extra 100 horsepower right toward redline. The 430 has more low end torque and feels better to just putter around in, but make no mistake once the 460 revs out it's noticeably quicker. I've heard on here that the 460 is no faster and can tell you from experience it is; you just have to keep the throttle buried to feel the difference. Just puttering around it didn't feel as torquey. I felt the 8 gears were too many, and it often hunted. Overall I didn't care for the 4.6L vs the 4.3. The nice, subtle 2-2.5k hum ours makes wasn't there, and winding it out it didn't have that ripping silk sound. Also, it's not as smooth as the 4.3 (due to timing chain vs timing belt).--though still plenty smooth, I admit I'm splitting hairs. That said, I'm definitely team UZ.
The cars were about the same road noise wise, though more ambient and wind noise seemed to get in the 460. The 460 did ride very nice, and I was surprised given the lower profile tires and 19" rims. A little more planted to the road it felt, but with that it also had less suspension rebound which I noticed.
Let me be clear by me saying that by no means are these "demerits" towards the 460. Because I say my seats are more comfortable and the leather is plusher, wood shinier, THAT'S NOT me saying the 460 is a bad car. I did enjoy it, and would drive it in a heartbeat. If my car were on its last leg or if I were in the market in general, I may have walked with it. But, like I said, I just don't feel it's really an upgrade from my current car (other than styling and a few modern tweaks), and I sure don't want car payments for 5 more years.
So that's my story for today. I may look for a '13 LS460 years down the road when it actually is time to retire the 430, though who knows when that will be. Like I said I'm not a fan of car payments. I don't think the 460 has a cheap interior at all as some have said, but while more dated looking, the 430 is unquestionably more luxurious inside in my opinion.
I'd post this in the 460 forums (worded differently), but I'm not trying to argue here. Any LS is an amazing car. For some I'm sure, the styling upgrade and just having a newer car are worth it, but not to me. Old faithful still has many years and 200,000 more miles left in her.
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