My '04 is at the dealer for basic maintenance stuff. I have an ES350 loaner - brand new with about 800 miles and mostly loaded. It isn't 1/10th the car the 430 is.

I sure appreciate the loaner program but God I miss my car! Being without it makes me appreciate just how amazing our cars really are, even compared to a new car.

 

Wow... the LS is very nice but the ES not 1/10th the LS.. I don't know about that... exaggeration I'm sure.

 

I've never had an ES loaner - just IS, HS, and mainly RX.

 

I wish it were. Rough motor under load, horrible FWD torque steer, plastic wood laminate that looks worse than something from Ikea, licorice-like "Eco-friendly" material all over the dash, incredibly thin leather, thin flappy plastic trim in only slightly out of the way spots, exhaust drone at low speeds, mouse fur headliner, bizarre and oddly unsettled handling, claustrophobic front sight lines.... this thing is very obviously a Camry, and before Toyota had its big quality falloff around 2007 it wouldn't even pass muster there in some ways.

I know it's a lot cheaper than an LS but it's not exactly a cheap car - I'm roundly unimpressed. To boot it's only getting about 2 mpg better mileage than my LS on typical drives.

 

I think the Lexus Toyota clones are in some ways worse cars than the original Toyota version. I test drove Highlanders and RX330s when we were shopping for a small SUV and choose the Highlander as the better car, and certainly better value. The HL is as solid as a rock, and certainly more interior space that the clone RX.

As far as the Camry clone goes, personally I'd rather buy an Avalon than an ES350 if I was choosing between the two. I often rent Avalons on business trips and they are very solid and impressively smooth cars.

 

does anybody own a avalon that is under 75 years old?

 

I too had a ES 330 for a loaner before I started to go to the Yota dealer in the same Auto group. I would not buy one, in its class there are much better cars IMO(too soft for me like the RX I drove). The Avalon Touring is a rental pile though. I prefer the Avalon XLS over the ES. I have driven many cars I agree with Thinkin but remember it is FWD in a different class.

 

This is just the point to me. The ES feels like a poser, all dressed up but not much talent underneath. It feels all veneer - look just a bit closer and the illusion fails.

The only advantage I can see to the ES in that context is as a gateway to Lexus dealers which are still tops in my experience, but even then it's too dear.

 

My Dad had two LS's, a 98 400 and a 04 430, both bought new. I spent a LOT of time in the 98, less in the 04. I love the LS, probably my favorite car on the road. BUT, I think you guys are being a little hard on the ES.

Sure the LS is a lot more car, its twice the price. I've had two ES's now, a 2003 300 and my 2010 350. Before I got each I very strongly considered buying a 3 year old LS instead of a new ES. It was a 2000 LS back in '03 and a 2006 LS430 or 2007 LS460 back in 2010. Each time I chose the ES. I drove them back to back to back to back and I came to the conclusion that obviously the LS is more car, but the ES is a lot of car for the money and with each successive generation it becomes a little more LS-like. Look at the 2013, its almost the same size as a 460 now. I don't see my trend of choosing a new ES over a 3 year old LS changing when my lease is up next summer, but I will definitely go through the comparison again.

The way I described it was when I was driving the LS the thought was "I have got to have one of these", and then I would drive the ES and obviously it wasn't to the same level, but it didn't have me missing the LS. So, because of that, the fact that the ES had the latest nav, satellite radio options, nav-traffic, enform, and it was brand new, and I could lease it for business the way I wanted to...thats the direction I went. When you drive the ES every day and you're not constantly comparing it to the LS, its very well built, materials are nice, its incredibly quiet and smooth, power is good...in short its a great car. If you think its "obviously a Camry" you should drive the same generation Camry. Night and day difference.

I've enjoyed my ES's very much. Not an LS, but you could buy two for the price of an LS, lease payment is $600 instead of $1200. Paying $40-45,000 for something that is 3 years old with 30-40k miles, then putting 18k a year on it for 5 years through a financing term just doesn't compute to me, regardless of how reliable they are. For a new one, the difference isn't $30,000 worth to me at this stage. To say its not "1/10th the car" or a "poser vehicle" is a little out in left field. Remember that without the lowly ES & RX, Lexus would likely not even be here today.

 

Super good point they are huge sellers so they do appeal to many people. It is a stark contrast going from an LS to an ES for a day, and I did drive the 350 when they programmed my key. The class they compare the ES to is the A4, Regal, TL, C class, 328. I thought it would be more the 535 and A6 class but not. I think the ES 350 looks sharp.

I've driven all but the C class and the ES has alot more room in this class with the TL. The Lacrosse is bigger also never driven it.

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One of my co-workers loves his new Avalon, and he's only 70.

 

They're just totally different cars, the ES is purely a boulevard cruiser, doesn't have the sporting intentions of the 5 or A6...plus...its WAY cheaper too. You load either of those up like a $40k ES and they're $60k.

Thats one reason I like the ES though, you get 5 series size for 3 series money.

 

I agree completely. I've had loaner ES300, ES330, and ES350. They are well put together with quality material. I think it is interesting to watch all the nice little features of the LS430 trickle down into the ES. I think it's an impressive car and well worth the money.

 

Jim - good point the demographic on the Avalon is a "little" older.

I have a friend that owns a nice one and he is only 59 - so there you go --way younger than 75 : )


This made me think about my love of big sedans - I got my DL and started driving in 1971. At that time in my neighborhood some of the coolest cars were the Buick Electra 225, Pontiac Gran Prix, Impala SS, Eldorado - all boats. There were guys coming around with mustangs and camaros (and I had a 1970 Dodge Challenger) but they just did not seem to get the same respect as the big powerful cars did.

I think for that reason to this day I love the big fast cars and not the smaller fast cars (except for the 2 seaters like SLK, SC430, Boxter, etc that I hope to own one day as a pure toy).

 

New car buyers of the LS, Avalon and ES are on the "mature" side. It seems like buyers of pre-owned cars tend to be younger.