climberd

Greetings,

I have a 1990 LS400 with 46,000 miles. Stock.
I just swapped OEM front brake pads for StopTech Street Performance 309 series pads.
The StopTech pads (Centric's top of the line pad label) are MUCH BETTER than OEM. I can lockup the front tires at 50mph easy, and the ABS then goes nuts. Tires are Goodyear TrippleTread. These pads make very little to no noise (none I can tell). I cannot comment on dusting, but I don't care either.

Now for the rears: QUESTION!

What are the best, grippiest, high performance REAR PADS?

All I can find is average stuff. Brake bias is totally off now. Fronts lock up while rears don't do much of anything (just like before, which was fine when the fronts also did nothing). I need a grippy performance rear pad to keep the car in check. I searched a lot and found nothing thus far.

Thanks in advance!

PureDrifter

iTrader: (10)

of course the brake bias will be off, you should ideally have the same compound front and rear....

locking up at 50mph tells me that your ABS isnt working properly (though i personally hate old school ABS) and that your tires don't grip that well...

climberd

Thanks for the reply. ABS is working fine (actually it works like crap, but it's exactly the crap the engineers designed it to be). Lockup only as manner of speaking. I can stab the brake pedal and get the tires to slip enough for ABS to activate immediately. I agree, old ABS is crap. Even my heavily modified 05' Legacy GT has crap ABS. It wouldn't be nearly as bad if I had good rear pads.

Anyways, of course it would be ideal to put Stoptech (Centric 309-series) pads in the rear, but they don't exist. Nothing I've found does even a remotely good job providing appropriate friction in the rear.

The tires are fine. Tons of tread left on Goodyear TrippleTread, in 215 or 205, I will check. Not a performance handling tire, but grip is plenty acceptable for a car like the LS400 (check it on TireRack). I think the limiting issue up front is the suspension. Despite being double wishbone up front, the spring rate is too damn low for any meaningful grip. I know a specific spot of pavement that can hit the front wheels just right, momentarily removing any meaningful braking ability (which translates to 20 feet of 'oh crap'). But the BIGGER problem is the rear pads, which now might as well not even be there (what it feels like).

Anyways, having no grip on rear pads leaves a lot of stopping balance on the table. Do you or anyone know of any grippy rear brake pads? Maybe something that is better than its marketing?

climberd

Nevermind found it on this site, and ordered the above from RockAuto

Centric didn't list it, but their 109 series of pads is probably as good as I'm going to do. People call them Axxis/PBR, or Axxis Ultimate. Either way, the 3rd digit of the Centric code for these, which is generally the highest level for Centric as far as I can tell (note my Stoptech 309 series pads are awesome. I have Stoptech front pads on my Legacy GT Brembos as well, in the F40 standard BBK pad shape.

So long story short (for the onlookers) for LS400 1990-1992:
Best front pad (probably) Stoptech (by Centric) 309-series.
Best rear pad (probably) Axxis Ultimate (by Centric) 109-series.

Of course "Best Pads" can easily be debated, but seriously look into the Stoptech pads before you knock it. From what I can gather, they are among the best of what's available for almost ANY car, so when I finally saw they were released for the oldest LS400, I went nuts. The proof is in the pudding. My OEM Pads couldn't get my tires (always properly inflated) to lock ever, except maybe when going 5mph). With stoptech fronts I can lockup the front tires probably at any speed I want within reason. The difference is night and day. It's disturbing how poorly setup the suspension on these 20-year-old boats vs what is normal today. My car has 45000 miles, so it's not worn bushings and blown struts causing issues. So, give it a shot

PureDrifter

iTrader: (10)

the axxis ultimates are made by PBR iirc...

and they are not a well rounded pad. great stopping power, but less-than great bite at cold temps, relatively short life, and both very noisy and very dusty.


i'm beyond happy with the Axxis/PBR Deluxe Ceramics i've been running for several years.

climberd

Yeah I saw people saying that on here, but I highly doubt PBR has the infrastructure to manufacture brake pads. Damn near everything in the aftermarket is re-branded. PBR is probably a lot like StopTech: a maker of big brake kits and supporting hardware, but doesn't have the tens of millions invested to actually manufacture brake pad material. Centric bought StopTech or otherwise merged, giving Centric a line of performance pads (or at least brand level differentiation for existing products). Axxis separately appears to make pads in Australia, and is probably just aligned with PBR, and also a little bit with Centric apparently, maybe cross-swapping products, which would make sense since Centric has MANY pad offerings in almost the same flavors (example: several different somewhat similar semi-metalics).

If the Axxis Ultimates end up being >32*F squealers, I'll step it down a notch as you say. But it's not hard to make a moderate pad quiet with combo of backing plate, grease, and even adding a backing spray if need be to further muffle it (though I doubt it will be necessary).

I don't care about dust. My version of impressing others or myself does not involve a 22-year-old sedan or its clean wheels. If anything, dust means you're running real brakes, which means the car is probably worth its salt.

I also don't care about pad life or cost. Saving $50 a year on brakes is ridiculous. Brake swaps take 10 minutes a corner. Your life depends on them, $50 is CHEAP for what you get in safety and control.

The stoptech front pads do indeed bite best when warmed up (they bit best at the end of a 10 round bed in, where most brakes would be totally faded). But their 50* bite is still exceptional. I live in Texas, where it's hot as hell most of the year, so a pad good to 0*F is pointless for me as it is for you in CA (where I'm from). So the AXXIS ULT and Stoptech Street Performance pads should hopefully pair well, as they sound like a very similar deal with similar points of the comparison graphs.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...xxis-ults.html

PureDrifter

iTrader: (10)

uhh no.
PBR is a huge company based in australia, owned by Bosch.

Stoptech is owned by Centric.

climberd

Just out of industry curiosity, I looked a little more and I see nothing about PBR making brake pads. They of course do lots of OEM engineering solutions for braking systems, and appear to make all their hard parts. Their pads may be from a pad manufacturer, maybe not. Axxis pads are a subsidiary of FMP, which makes a LOT of brake pads for a LOT of companies. I thought it was odd to see Bendix's highest pad, the Bendix (Ult) matched with the Axxis (Ult), but turns out they are made on the same assembly line, and are probably also the exact same pad... name is the same... could have saved a few bucks going with the lesser name... why build a brake pad factory when you can just buy the pads to spec, and make all your money in proprietary braking system design and manufacturing.

But this confuses me: CENTRIC Part # 10904880 Axxis Ultimate... Centric must be distributing nationally other people's pads, though they definitely are a manufacturer of pads...

At least part of the puzzle makes sense...

I'll post reviews of the brake balance/bias once installed. Then I'll install the Goodridge lines sitting here, and review again. Really don't want to have to upgrade the damn suspension. Hopefully corrected brake bias will help a bit in that regard...

climberd

Put on my Centric part numbered Axxis ultimate rear pads.
Also swapped front rotors for ATE rotors.
Also swapped brake lines for Goodridge or whatever they are.
Bled brakes with home made pressure bleeder, which worked very, very well.

On the axxis pads, came with no dampening plate or backing place. Swapped both over from stock pads, with lots of synthetic brake grease.

Pedal feel is no different around town, or if it is then it's not major.

I will bed everything in and see how this setup does at the limit. Just want it to be good enough to be SAFE among all the modern cars with modern brakes.

Waited to do bed in because wanted front stoptech pads to flatten themselves gently, not put any circular irregular wear streaks into the new rotors. Not sure if that's at all logical, but we'll find out.

climberd

Never ended up doing a bed in, might eventually get around to it, for fun. Now, when comparing the braking of the LS400 to other cars, it's acceptable. Don't know to what extent the brake lines helped, but probably not a lot. Probably the least of any brake change I made. Glad to have good pads in the rear.
Brake setup makes no noise. Gotta love good brake grease.
The stoptech pads are VERY dusty, even on OEM wheels, so I wouldn't want to see what they dust like on a more open spoke wheel. But they sure as heck work. The problem now is the suspension, which sends the car diving if you hit the brakes HARD, and worse still if the ABS activates. Eventually, new KYB-GR2 struts.

climberd

Update on my 1990 LS400 with Stoptech pads in the front, Axxis ultimate in the rear.

1) Braking feels balanced, happy with that.
2) Cold temperatures are not playing super nice with the Stoptech's and maybe the Axxis Ultimates as well. At 40* F, the first few stops, braking is half of what it is when they get some heat. Still fine, but you have to know to not be crazy then.
3) Being a street pad, they make enough heat pretty quick to be safe the rest of the morning.
4) Still no noise, though I applied expensive synthetic brake grease liberally all over the pad backing and retainer clip surfaces, and also have the (I think included?) pad shims at least in the front (thank you Centric).

-If I lived in a much colder climate, I would swap out my front pads seasonally with a centric pad one level down, I think still in the 300 series, though I would have to re-familiarize with the product range to confirm.

-I have been in a few emergency / unexpected stop situations, and these pads performed very well, covering for the 2-ton boat and Goodyear TrippleTread tires as well as could be expected.

-Thus, I would probably buy again, OR, would try out a Centric pad one step down next time to see if the swap of braking force in exchange for a little more initial bite, longer rotor life, and everything else, is a better compromise. TBD.