07grIS350

I think you are just generalizing from your own experience on wealth and cars. All I can say is not everyone is of the same view. Agree to disagree?

07grIS350

It would certainly feel like a failure in the execution of the LFA sales and marketing. However, in the big picture, if a bunch of LFA technologies get into some amazing future F cars that successfully compete with the M, RS and AMG, then it would be a huge success for Lexus.
I have no doubt that the LFA will be soldout, but that may not occur without having to allocate more cars back to Japan.

gengar

Even worse, some buyers look at exotics as short term profit vehicles (err... pun not intended, I swear). A Ferrari salesman I've kept in touch with over the years recently bemoaned the fact that 458 demand and lead times are lower than he'd like because many flippers are used to turning a profit even after transaction fees and operating costs and aren't biting on the 458 like they did with past models. (You've gotta love it when a salesman actually prefers his customers wait longer to get the products they've bought.) We even saw posts on here from a multiple exotic owner stating that he'd flipped several 458s and interest in the LFA was dependent on being able to flip the car. Said poster lost interest upon realizing that the LFA would likely not be a good candidate to be flipped for a profit.

While I along with everyone else of course understand that people value money, a question forces itself into the back of my head - are these people really car enthusiasts? I mean, if you actually have to make money owning a car to consider buying one? It's not even good enough to limit operating costs, or even regaining capital and eating transaction fees, but actually making money? I dunno, I don't get it. I never understood the idea of a car as an investment and I doubt I ever will.


Well, to me the funny thing is that all these people are going on and on about how the LFA isn't selling. Yet, the car is sold out everywhere but in the US - and if any of the numbers we typically hear about are to be believed, it'd be sold out in the US if they hadn't increased the allocation from 150 to 17x. Demand is much stronger in Japan based on member commentary (including one who have actually went through the Japanese selection process), where if the unsold US units were shifted, they'd probably all be sold out. Frankly, as I've said many times on this forum, I'll be happy if US units get allocated back to Japan, because cars should be sold to people who want them.

In any case, the notion of using sales as a metric for success for anything not called a Camry or Prius or Altima or Accord etc. is just another invention of those who struggle every day to find reasons to hate on the LFA. Were the SLR and Carrera GT failures simply because they didn't hit production targets? Does the GTR suck simply because Nissan thought they couldn't even sell 315 last year? The mere idea of car success being considered on such a basis is appalling.

kickhard

Is a cars success based on sales numbers? Of course not. The fact that the LFA made it to production in my book makes it a success. But what I think many here feel is that the LFA could have been a bigger success if it was priced differently along with Lexus thinking that they could use the low prodution numbers to boost interest and MSRP.

I really dont think all the cars lexus says is sold really is sold. Time will tell.............

And to whomever thinks resale, depreciation is not an issue with buyers must have all the money in the world.

07grIS350

Actually, the reverse is true with moneyed people. I've found that people in this group watch their pennies very closely. Perhaps this is how they get there in the first place.
All we are saying here is some are more worry about resale and depreciation than others. You can probably figure out who the others are if you gave it some thought.

S2000toIS350

Some current disconnected thoughts:

The US allocation will stay where it is because Japanese companies like to stick with the plan once it is agreed upon.

The folks at Lexus told us in January 2010 in Miami that they have zero experience at marketing an exotic and they are experimenting. They started out with some plan and have moved/changed things as needed (buy it if you want). Some stuff like the choose the buyer definitely put some customers off and that is unfortunate.

No one is perfect in these promotion games. Tomorrow I will be driving Rollers (sponsored by RR and Worth magazine and supported by Perillo as they are building a RR shop in town) at a fancy invite only event at the Elysian Hotel. The chance of me buying a Roller is el zippo.

I can definitely see the concern light going on with the current prospects. Just look at the number of F cars that have shields on them not for love of the horse picture, but for resale aspects. In the case of the LFA no one has a decent idea of the secondary market. The closest example we have to date is that the car at JM in Florida has been sitting for at least a couple of months now with no home.

The flipper guy who came to chat should not be dismissed so quickly. If I have any facts straight, he make the biiiig bucks at Trinity Capitol flipping groups of Burger King franchises amongst other stuff. He is conditioned by making money flipping F cars, so why would he be looking to take a $50 to $75 K (theoretical) drubbing for a 6 month ride in an LFA before he gets his first 458 spider and clubs someone for the same amount in his favor.

The French article (hard to believe it is true) points to the most un Japanese aspect of the LFA. It is a point in time product. Here are the specs and we are going to build 500 perfect copies and call it a day. As we keep seeing with the GTR, an extreme yet flawed version that started the R35 story keeps giving way to better and better versions in true Japanese fashion.

gengar

No one has said depreciation is unimportant to everyone. My point is simply that certain people put a different value on ownership compared to others so blanket statements on the importance of certain aspects of the LFA lack prudence. Obviously, people who will only buy a car if they can flip it for profit care tremendously about future value. Similarly, people who can't afford not to sell the car in a few years at a certain price will care about depreciation. But buyers who put a tremendous value on the experience that ownership provides and have no plan to sell the car will care much less about any anticipated depreciation.

It's always easy to choose to ignore the differences in how and what people value, but it can just as easily result in a total lack of understanding of people's behavior.

I still don't get how anyone who actually was interested in the car could have been in any way "put off" by the dreamed-up notion of Lexus "selecting" buyers, given the process involved a three-minute phone call. I really wonder how long we're going to keep beating this dead horse that was largely conjured up by media reports and internet viralism.


No one dismissed anyone. My point was that armchair QBs factoring depreciation into actual sales figures should take care in doing so, because long-term owners have to exist either way. A guy who flips a 458 for a profit doesn't directly affect new 458 sales because the 458 had to be bought by someone. If a car depreciates - and with a minuscule number of exceptions, they all do - at least one owner is going to be left holding the bag.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

in a somewhat related topic then, is that lfa at JM lexus still available? that's one of the easier colors to market

TommyJames

I've yet to meet an owner of exotics, be it a collector with several hundred million in cars, or a single exotic owner who doesn't look at depreciation as a component in their decision. To somehow say that makes them less of an enthusiast is laughable. Some account for it differently, but it's a consideration no matter what. The days of flipping cars have been long gone except for certain Ferraris where there is already a giant customer base that doesn't exist with any other brand.

We've beat this topic to death, but the it doesn't matter how many LFAs sell, they don't need to sell 500 for the car to be a success. 179 cars in the US will not likely appreciate or even hold value any better than any other exotic. It may or may not be worse. Owners in the US are far better served if the allocation shifts to other countries.

What everyone forgets is that once Lexus sells the cars, there will be less and less publicity about the LFA which will harm the product's awareness in the market, something that must be there to sustain a $400k car's value. I've strongly encouraged Lexus to continue to do something to sustain the group of owners somehow so interest in the car doesn't die and thus values drop.

I think the LFA is a very special car, but to keep it special will require continued effort on Lexus part. You forget that with every month that passes, other exotic brands are launching new models that do more for less as technology keeps advancing and without Lexus working to build the culture, and thus demand for used LFAs, they will see a large drop in value as consumers flock to something else.

gengar

I've posted many times on these boards that depreciation and resale were not factors in my decision to purchase an LFA - including in response to your past posts.


It just comes down to a matter of valuing certain aspects over others. Some people are going to value expected protection against depreciation over other features of a car, while others might go the other way. At one extreme, we have flippers and speculators who only consider buying a car if they can make a profit off short-term ownership; these people will be much less interested in the specific features of a car and the ownership experience - that seems pretty simple to me.

TommyJames

Yes, there was a band of people buying Ferraris who did so only because it literally cost them nothing to own. All of that went away in 2008. That segment is now about gone, even with the 458, and 599 GTO. Those who are enthusiasts still care about the value of their car. In part that's what makes them special- that they are valued. All depreciation reflects is the degree in which something is coveted.