CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

Now that the GS350 is confirmed and the RX350 is out, the comparison between the GS450H and RX400H seems a lot closer than against the GS300/430 and RX330. It appears to me that the premium cost for the GS450H and RX400H are even higher now. Is it really worth it?

The GS350 will be using the IS350 3.5L 306HP engine. Performance wise it should be a tad slower than the IS due to weight. My estimate is probably around 5.5 seconds to 60. The GS300 weighs in at 3536 lbs, so I estimate the GS350 will be about 3650 lbs with the new engine. The GS450H weighs about 4135 lbs. Gas mileage for the GS350 should be comparble to the IS350 so I'm guessing about 24 real world combined MPGs. The GS450H has been reported to get about 28 real world combined MPGs. 0-60 for the GS450H is about 5.2 seconds. You can probably buy a loaded GS350 for about $50K or under. The GS450H starts at $54,XXX.

The RX350 has 270HP, weighs in about 4090 lbs for the AWD, gets about 20-21 combined MPGs, does 0-60 in 7.4 seconds. Compared to the RH400H that has 268 combined HP, weights in at about 4365 lbs, gets about 25-26 real world combined MPGs, does 0-60 in 7.3 seconds.

So my question is are the Lexus Hybrids worth the approximate $5000+ premium over their non Hybrid versions? The argument about getting V8 performance out of a V6 no longer holds much weight anymore now that the GS350/RX350 came out. The non hybrid V6 versions appear to perform just as well. Real world combined MPGs are still better for the hybrids obviously, but 4-5 MPG better while a lot, is still not enough IMHO to justifty the price premium. Even with the $1300 or so tax break, it would still take about 5 years to break even from gas savings based on about $3.10 a gallon.

So why would one buy the GS450H over a comparable loaded GS350, or a RX400H over a comparable loaded RX350? The argument about using the car pool lane is not that great considering hybrids do their best job in city driving and is hardly an advantage on the freeway. Free metered street parking is definately a bonus, but I find it hard to believe those people that can afford a Lexus hybrid really park on the street in metered stalls. Buyers with this wealth usually have office parking lots. Added performance is only a marginal advantge now that the new 3.5L engines are out.

This topic is not meant to compare Lexus hybrids to other manufacturers non hyrbrids, but to compare them to Lexus' own non hybrid versions.

Koma

iTrader: (3)

Some people like to pretend they're helping the environment and to flex their monetary muscles.
Honestly if I had the money to purchase both I would go for the hybrid version. I do alot of city driving. I like the look of the RX-h better than the regular RX (the foglamps on the petrol RX annoys me). I wouldn't go about bragging I had a hybrid (South Park episode) but I would like to have the best when I have the money to do so.
It's honestly not much of an argument but for some reason I feel compelled to buy the hybrids.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

That actually is a good argument. If you say you want to buy it because you like the style of the car better, I can buy that and I can understand. You speak the truth. Style plays a large role in what cars I buy as well. If one were to continue to use the argument that you get this great improved performance or that they save a ton on money in gas, well that I just don't buy anymore.

spwolf

Premium for RX400h is now much less. More like 3k.
Same will go with GS350, since Lexus will raise the price due to engine change.

As to the real world mpg - it depends on how you are driving. Average 24 MPG for IS350 seems like something that would be considered as pretty great result. I would suspect if you drive GS450h in the same way, you will probably get even better than 28.

But thats not the point - GS450h will be significantly faster than GS350 due to 200hp electric engine. Why were people buying GS430 when you actually lose money on gas? :-).

spwolf

p.s. 0-60 is only small part of the story. Both RX400h and GS450h have limited electric output until some 20-30 mph because of simply too much torque. Passing speed when in gear should be much faster in GS450h than GS350. Overall the car should be significantly faster.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

That is the thing. Unless the GS350 increases in price by more than $3000 it will still be significanty cheaper than the GS450H that starts at $54,000. You would have to get the GS450H at significantly under MSRP to get close to GS350 pricing. However, if that is possible I agree that the GS450H would be worth it as I have always said I do like hybrids I just don't like the inflated premium costs it demands right now. As to the GS450H being significantly faster I find that hard to believe. We do know the GS450H has been tested at 5.2-5.5 0-60 already. It has a combined power rating of 339HP. The IS350 in which the GS350 will share the same 306HP engine has 33HP less, but probably will weight about 400lbs less, unless the 3.5L engine increases the GS350 weight significantly more than 200-300 lbs which is unlikely. The IS has been clocked in at 5.2 0-60, so that is why I estimate the GS350 being a mid 5.5 second car. That is only about 0.3 seconds slower than the GS450H.

MPG estimates on the GS350 I'm basing it off the IS350. The IS350 is rated at 21 city and 28 highway. We do know that the EPA estimates are not really accurate, but I find it hard to believe it will get less than 21 MPG combined when I'm already getting 22 MPG combined on my less efficient RX330 and even my old SC400 used to get 22 MPG.

As for getting comparable MPG numbers driving the GS350 or GS450H the same way I doubt it. Like you mentioned in another posts most Americans spend the majorty of their driving on highways or freeways. If you were to drive mostly city that could make a great argument in favor of the hybrid. Otherwise, if you drove the way most people drive, the GS350 still sounds like a more practical choice.

As for the GS430, I purposely ommited that from my posts because with the GS350 the GS430 no longer makes any sense too me. Now, if we talk about the new upcoming GS460 that people here are hoping to have performance in the sub 5 second 0-60 range that is a whole different topic for comparison.

Again, I'm not totally against hybrids. I am though a huge fan of the upcoming GS350 and very pleased that the RX350 finally has the power and performance that I wish my RX330 could have. With these new models the curreny hybrid versions just don't seem worth it too me from a financial and performance aspect.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

i havent' read the other replies yet but i want to give my 2 cents first

i think lexus should be shifting the direction, like you said, the hybrids are not about v8 performance with v6 fuel economy anymore. i think it should be about high performance vehicle with better fuel economy. that should be what it is about. at least from the lexus lineup, as of now (about what we know), the ls600hl is the ONLY lexus hybrid that truly outperforms its non-hybrid versions.

we all know that hybrids aren't really "saving money" now due to the very high initial cost. so it's about what you feel and think and how you are saving the world by not using as much gas. only time will tell say 5 yrs from now how hybrid is doing and whether people can truely benefit from buying a hybrid over non-hybrid. in some sense, i think it's almost like selling a guy a prius over a corolla

also, couple of things i want to note here:

1) rx400h, if i am right, is using a 3.3L engine (the one in es330 and rx330?) plus the hybrid right? so it's really just comparable to the rx330. the rx350 is coming out, and the es350 will use the same engine, so that leaves ONLY the rx400h using that engine? maybe they will drop that engine and use the 3.5 engne as well, making it rx450h? if that's the case, which i think is very possible, then it will run away from the rx350 easily

2) gs450h is still faster than the gs350, we know that already. but the performance gain isn't as much, and again it's about how you are saving the world. about true performance, imho, it's still about the coming gs460. i think it's going to outperform the gs450h, making it a true performer in the gs lineup.

spwolf

yeah, but here is the thing - GS450h, when at speed, should be as quick as GS460. Thats the whole thing.
Are you saying that performance benefit does not matter? If yes, then that V6 is simply good enough engine for car like GS and that it doesnt need V8? If so, why even have GS460? It will be only as fast as GS450h and get 7-8 mpg less

It is all about V8 performance at 4cly mpg... Better weight ratio f/r, two different gearings, astonishing torque, etc, etc.

Same goes for RX400h. On paper difference is very small. Yet at speed, RX400h beats its V8 competitors in at speed measurments as 60-80mph, and 80-100mph. Same goes for RX350.

And same will go for LS600h. Its difference between petrol and hybrid versions is going to be the same as with GS350 and GS450h.

What comes down to is people will test out different versions and see if it is worth it. I bet the cool test drive and sheer power of hybrid drive will be enough to satisfy them - just look at how RX400h is selling despite RX350 being around.

bagwell

You guys are forgetting about the significant tax credit, at least on the RX400h....no clue about GS450h.

LexFather

My 2 cents. Hybrids may NOT be the answer 100% but are part of the solution and I for one support anybody and any effort to produce them.

We are literally in the very begining of this technology, it will ONLY improve. I think peoples expectations are ridiculous sometimes expecting 100mpg from a hybrid.

Not yet

Now as for "worth" well I have argued, is it even "WORTH" buying a Leuxs or ANY luxury car? It is worth to have leather, NAV, a ML system?

So if we can argue for THOSE items which have NOTHING to do with saving the environment, why are people so HELL BENT on proving hybrids are foolish and not worth it, when that ARUGEMENT could be said for anything.

Let me tell you some pros
1. Image, a hybrid is the most technologically advanced vehicle sold period. Its something to talk about. People just are interested in hybrids, no matter love or hate.
2. Clean. These cars burn cleaner than regular petrol cars. Not enough to plug the hole in the ozone layer, but doing its part to help.
3. Better fuel economy. As gas prices CONTINUE to go up, your savings will also go up. Not only that, if your like me and drive 25k-30k a year, a hybrid makes A LOT MORE SENSE than the guy with 5 cars or the person that drives 10k miles a year. THE MORE YOU DRIVE THE MORE YOU SAVE.
4. Better performance. Clearly Lexus has proven that hybrids clearly help with performance with no gas DECREASE and a slight increase. You CANNOT say that with turbos or superchargers. So this is INCREDIBLE when you think about it.
5, Tax credit. Hey, people LOVE tax credits. I think its funny that people argue against hybrids and hybrids get a puny tax credit (I think $500-$2000 dollars) but if you buy a 4,000 lbs SUV or TRUCK and slap a sticker on it, you can write off most of the damn gas guzzling vehicle.
6. Styling, subtle but different changes people may like
7. Quieter. When not under full throttle and under what 35mph, only the electric motor runs, providing a much QUIETER car. That has to count for something. Also the A/C doesn't need a compressor and runs more quiet and doesn't need the engine on to run, when your parked.

Again, they are not the total solution but are part of it.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

I already mentioned the tax credit. It does help, but the cost difference between the two models are still in the thousands.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

Honestly, I would actually say from a performance point of view I would say there is no need for the GS460. Even if it does 0-60 in 4.9 or less like some hope, that is only a 0,3 second difference from the hybrid. If the choice was only between the GS450H and the GS460 I probably would get the hybrid given that it would probably cost less than the new GS460 given the GS450H is about what the curent GS340 cost. The only reason why I said in the other topic that Lexus needs the V8 is for their image. As much as I like some of the Acura cars, I do recognize that the V8 brings the status. So, since image is importent to Lexus, you need the V8.

The LS460 vs its hybrid is a tough one to judge because that car is V8 or hybrid only. There is no V6 option. In that case the hybrid appears to make much more sense.

As for 60-80, I just don't see that as being importent for the type of cars these are. At the track, or if these were exotic super cars I think those numbers are importent. My freeway driving is mosstly highway at speed about 70 MPH. Even with my little old ES300 with I think 189HP passing a car going 60 MPH take all but a second or two. I just don't see the torque advantage of the hyvbrid at that speed as being importent. 80-100? That is virtually useless in the real world. That is the definition of looking good on paper and being useless in the real world. Even though I've driven 150 MPH on the freeways before, my normal routine is very much betwen 60 and 80MPH. The only time I hit 100 MPH is when I'm being foolish and playing around.

The V8 cars aside, the question still is would you pay the extra cost and buy the GS450H over the GS350?

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

I agree. Hybrids are just the begining. It will only get better. When it does get better and to the point where it really does make economical sense, that is when I'm buying a hybrid.


I don't think that is a good analogy or comparison. The difference is you can have the leather, the Lexus name, and navigation, the ML system in the non hybrid version as well. So, between the two, the only difference is the the powertrain and performance. So the question would be is the extra cost of the GS450H worth it over the GS350 for what appears to be about a 0.3 second performance edge, and maybe a little more than that in the 1/4 mile? We can say you'll have the torque like a V8 Corvette compared to a a V6 NSX for drivability. Let me just give my opinion on that. At the track that is something to be desired. On the street, I found you are wasting most of that available torque because you simply are just not using it unless you are doing stop light burnouts all the time.

I agree. As someone who like technology and innovation I am intrigued about hybrids, that is why I jump in on these hybrid vs topics a lot.

If someone told me that is the reason why they are buying a hybrid I'd applaud them. I do see that side of the argument in that case. You can't argue that hybrids are cleaner cars.

I agree. That is why I once said in another topic that if/when gas starts to hit about $5.00 a gallon that is when I'd probably buy one. The problem is with these hybrids out today, gas isn't yet at that price. So the argument is about the value today, not when gas hits European prices.

[QUOTE=1SICKLEX]
4. Better performance. Clearly Lexus has proven that hybrids clearly help with performance with no gas DECREASE and a slight increase. You CANNOT say that with turbos or superchargers. So this is INCREDIBLE when you think about it.[/QUOTE[

No argument here. I think compared to the V8 versions the hybrids make sense. I'm still talking about compared to the V6 versions though. The gap is so much smaller betweel performance and somewhat gas mileage now that these new V6s are available.

[QUOTE=1SICKLEX]
5, Tax credit. Hey, people LOVE tax credits. I think its funny that people argue against hybrids and hybrids get a puny tax credit (I think $500-$2000 dollars) but if you buy a 4,000 lbs SUV or TRUCK and slap a sticker on it, you can write off most of the damn gas guzzling vehicle.['/QUOTE]

I'm one that believes technology like hybrids should be subsidised and MORE tax breaks and credits should be offered not only to the customer but to the manufacturers. Any tax break is good. But I'm not quite ready to take a tax break if it still cost me more up front. Factoring in the tax credit it still would take about 4-5 years at current prices to break even. Most people swap cars about every 5 years anyway.

I can't argue with that. While I actually prefer the style of the RX350 vs the RX400H, I can understand people buying things based on style. I do it all the time.

That is definately a bonus. How much is that worth though? I guess to those that are buying it is worth it.

My whole point to this topic isn't about wheather hybrids in general are worth it. It is only about the specific Lexus hybrid versions compared to their non hybrid versions based on an economical point only. If someone wants to buy something simply because it makes them feel good, or they like the style, or in the case of hybrids they want to do their part to save the planet more props to them and you get no argument from me.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

I agree. There are two types of hybrids that make sense to me today. One is the full economy type like the Prius and Civic/Insight. The other is high performance hybrids. When it comes to economy I want to see maximum economy which is sort of what we see with those types of cars out today. When it comes to performance, I'd like to see exceptional performance over its non hybrid version. We are no longer getting V8 performance for 4 cylinder gas consumption anymore. Now, at least the Lexus hybrids (Excluding the LS) is getting V6 performance at something between 4 and 6 cylinder gas consuption. I'd say that is due to the great performance and economy of the new V6s available today. So, the hybrids need to step up the game. I'm sure they will eventually, but I say that is a few years away.

That is exactly what I think. If you buy it to make you feel good and because it is good for the environment I can agree. Those that are buying thinking they are saving money or getting much better performance I'd have to say they need to go back and do the math.

That is the mistake I believe Lexus made with the hybrids. They should tune them for better economy rather than the slight performance edge they have now. For the RX400H I would say they should have used the 3.0L V6 rather than the 3.3. Before the RX350 came out, you would have still had better performance over the RX330, but you would have had significantly better fuel economy. If the real world fuel economy was around 8-10 MPG my tune would change real fast. At that point it really starts to make sense when it comes to saving money.

For the GS450H, they should not have used the 3.5L engine but again used the 3.0L engine. That performance edge would be about even or slightly lower than the GS350, but the gas mileage would be significantly better.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

It would be good to hear from members that are into performance and sports cars about their ideas and thoughts about so called performance hybrids. Would you buy them given whats on the market today?

Some people know that I drive a so called high performance sports car and am into performance. Given that, I don't see the performance hybrids out today as good enough to make me want one. I want a hybrid for economical reasons, and right now it just doesn't seem to add up to much savings at all over a 5 year time frame. In order for me to want a so called performance hybrid, it has to be a significant improvement over its non hybrid. Too me, that means at least a half second better in 0-60 and 1/4 mile. As spwolf mentions the 60-80 and 80-100 are a definate advantage for the hybrid, but on the street that doesn't matter. At the track that comes into play and I like that. However, hybrids aren't far enough today to be used as performance track cars. There are still too many questions about whether or not the batteries will hold its charge over a long track session. There is nothing worse than having great laps only for your batteries to die 10 laps latter. The performance edge would be lost.

I know that I'll buy a hybrid one day. I just think it is probably about 3-5 years away though.