DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

I've been toying with updating my car audio for some time in my GS. I'll eventually do the head unit, but I haven't seen a close enough match on any replacement bezel (even with the recently released kit) that I like yet - that would bother me every time I got in the car. When I do replace it I’ll use a SQ head unit rather than an LCD screen since I have the LS400 as a second car when I need navigation.

Instead I've decided to focus on the other area of the sound that I know I can improve (and bothers me) - the bass response. I also would like to upgrade other power components while I’m at it since part of the bass problem (I suspect) is due to lack of power.

What I have now
* JL 10' W3 Sub mounted to deck with custom sealed enclosure
* Dynaudio 240 MKII Speakers Front, MW160 Rear
* Alpine M357 5 channel amplifier ( • RMS Continuous Power (Watt) at 12.0V 4ohm; Stereo (0.08% THD) 30Wx4+(0.3% THD) 100x1 2ohm; Stereo (0.3% THD) 40x4 Bridged 4ohm; (0.3% THD) 80x2+(0.3% THD) 100x1 )
* Decent quality but not top end Streetwires (I think) power line running from Optima Yellow Top

I don’t have a recent pic (will take one and edit this post) of my trunk setup showing my rear STB, but here’s an older one that shows the amp and sub.



Observations on the current sound
The Dynaudios sound GREAT, amazing high end, not fatiguing and a smooth midrange. Turns up plenty loud for me most of the time. Bass is still pretty decent and hits OK, but is not super deep. There are some songs where the bass seems to hum, get a little muddy or resonate in the car. That bothers me. It really bothers my girlfriend.

When I put in the Dynaudios, the installer said that the amp was really underpowered for the speakers. I usually don't have any problems with them as I note above, but I always wonder how much better they’ll sound with the appropriate power. I’m certain the 100 watts to the sub is insufficient. I’m not sure if the lack of power is the reason or the enclosure isn’t sized quite right. Dex had exactly the same amp and sub, but the box was built by a different shop – mine actually sounds a bit deeper, but his didn’t have the problem with the muddy sound that mine sometimes does… this makes me think it’s the box as much as the power.

I considered going to high end amps like a McIntosh but have had problems finding the right one at the right price, plus I won’t be doing this install myself (not enough patience or time) and I like having someone local accountable for both the install and the products.

A final piece I want to undertake as a related side project is to replace my back deck, primarily to get rid of the third brakelight (which I have blacked out). In the GS if you remove this light you have a big hole in the back deck near the window that needs to be covered, plus you have an issue with the ‘light’ warning light popping up on the dash.

What I want to do
Goals are to improve bass response and control (still with a focus on SQ, not SPL), get the most out of my Dynaudios. Improve the looks of the rear deck and trunk install, but not going crazy with fiberglass and neon. I want to retain my Tom’s rear strut tower brace and my spare tire.

To address the goals above, I plan to:

1) Replace my current 5 channel Alpine with two amps, tentatively targeting a JL 450/4 and a JL 500/1. Mount these inset in a custom carpet covered false wall that will sit against back wall where the current amp is if there’s room.

2) Upgrade power wiring from battery to support new amps (two)

3) replace my 10” JL sub with a single 12” sub (not sure of brand or mount) if it will fit and allow strut tower brace to stay in place.

4) Remove third brake light entirely and disconnect the warning light per this thread (click here).

5) Replace rear deck with a new piece or patch hole where 3rd brakelight was and recover with like material. Improve soundproofing under deck with dynamat and brown bread under rear seats prior to reinstall.

6) Possibly install some improved bass control device. Need to do some research on this.


Thoughts on my approach? Alternatives that will meet my goals? Other products I should consider? Thanks in advance.

retrodrive

They have new IDMAX 10's out now. Not only it will hit lower, but it is going to be a lot drier and precise then a JL. You might want to do some measurements and see if you can fit it IB on your rear deck. New amps will drastically improve the overall volume and quality of the system. Most importantly you will have headroom so that if a singer or whatever instrument hits a very high energy note, you will have enough power to go through it without distortion.

RMMGS4

iTrader: (5)

Well here's items 3,4 & 5

This is 1/2 inch MDF replacing the original rear deck and covering the 3rd brake light hole. You can see a metal plate that was routered into the top for the xm radio and nav antenna for better reception. On the finished product you only see the antennas.

This is the wood before it was covered in a factory type fabric The tee nuts line up with holes already in the factory sheetmetal. Bolts are tightened from underneath and wheatherstripping was also sandwiched between this wood plate and the sheetmetal. This is a full bolt on installation. No cutting or drilling and NO RATTLES.

I will also note that Jawnthen has a very similar box set up as you using a JL sub. (Probably an older model) and JL amps. All I can tell you is my free air sounds equal if not BETTER than his sealed. The reasons why are probably many, but I'll save that discussion for later.

RMMGS4

iTrader: (5)

and here's the 12" sub mounted to a plate mounted from underneath. Note that there are 4 holes that match up with the factory woofer holes, so this is a bolt on install too.

1 inch wheatherstrip was sandwiched between the plate and the sheetmetal for a tight seal and no vibration.

lex400sc

Dave you definitely need more than 100w to that current sub. We usually put 250w to the 10IB4s, you have a 10W3! You could use a 250/1 or even 500/1 on that sub. I would however try going for the free-air solution, it's the most practical for just adding more bass. The quality is about as good as a basic car system too.

jawnthen

I've got a JL 10W6 with a 300/2 powering it with 300 watts and comparing it to Glen's setup (secret home theater 12" and a Zapco competition 100 watt amp...oh and whole mess of ultra clean electronics up the signal chain as well) The results are...output is about the same. His 12 goes deeper and adds more detail to the midbass transition. This is the most interesting part of his setup. He's currently running that sub with the stock 4" speakers in the doors. I have the Dyn's running 150 watts to each side with a JL 300/2. So the million dollar question is how much does Glen's rear deck setup effect the sound versus the other parts of his system (amp, cd section) I was going to copy the rear deck and do it on my car to find out but wtih school these days, there is no more time. Maybe at the end of next quarter I'll have time to try...of course I'll need Glen to remove his rear deck for me

johnee78

iTrader: (4)

Your on the right track.You can make a drastic improvement on your sound without having to replace any speakers.Simply go and buy a JL audio 500/5.It will give you 125 watts rms to your fronts,25 watts to your rear (fill) and 250 watts for your sub.The 10w3 requires 250 watts to play at peak performance.Replace your alpine with this amp and you will see a night and day difference.You really have nothing to lose.Go to tweeter buy the amp, and if it doesn't make a big difference, simply return it.It's tweeters 60 day return policy(I used to work for a tweeter company in florida).This amp also works very well with factory head units,and I have tried this, so I'm passing on my experiance,to you.Good luck!!

johnee78

iTrader: (4)

I almost forgot.If you want to get tight clean bass, don't go free air.A sealed box will always sound better than f/a especially if it firing into the car, like yours is.I know this from trial and error and experiance.

RMMGS4

iTrader: (5)

Johnee, generally true but not always. My point for posting was to let DaveGS4 know how some of his options have worked out in my set up and that mine so happens to be a free air set up and that it can sound good. As Jawnthen is my witness, my bass is tighter and slightly cleaner than his sealed box with 300w of JL power.

johnee78

iTrader: (4)

Your F/A may work also because it's a 12 inch and it is designed to be in a very large enclosure( home audio).He's running a 10 inch.I am offering a simple solution that won't require much work.It's basically removing one amp and replacing with another.Thats it.BTW,is that an adire sub?

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

Do you guys think that simply adding more power to the sub could solve the 'muddy' sound issue? I do have a tweeter nearbiy that has a good install team.

I could ask for a 'taste test' where they unhook my Alpine and run the JL 5/500(I have considered this amp before, just a little turned off by the very low power on the rear channels). One of the (former) installers there offered this option up in the past.

EDIT - and thanks everyone for the responses and help!

Glen - Pics of that rear deck are VERY helpful!

Jawnthen - do you experience any muddiness in your setup? Do you have any sort of bass controller?

johnee78

iTrader: (4)

Maybe 1or 2 hrs. If it sounds good than problem solved, and if it doesn't than back to the drawing board or forums. And more power should make everything sound better.Cleaner and crisp.

johnee78

iTrader: (4)

Don't worry about the rear channels because your front will be so loud it will literally fill up the inside of your car.Just remember, music is heard in front of you not from behind you.You wouldn't go to a concert and listen to music with your back turned to the stage would you?Just some food for thought.

RMMGS4

iTrader: (5)

No arguement here, my F/A does work. That's exactly my point. Adding power will surely help and my set up is not as simple to build but:

1. I was simply offering my answers to Dave's questions #3, 4 & 5. Dave was thinking of going to 12", while clearing the STB and cover the 3rd brake light hole and soundproofing the rear. This is precisely what I've done and I have achieved decent performance, IMHO.

2 - There is a company that may be selling a rear deck similar to mine for the GS in kit form and they will offer free air or sealed mounting options. More on this later.

3 - In Jawnthen's case, he does have the higher JL power that Dave is talking about getting and my F/A set up still is tighter/cleaner. So power alone will only take you so far.

No not an adire. It's an AudioConcepts DV12, a company out of Wisconsin.

Dave, you are on the right track for seeking improved bass. Each mod you listed, will offer an additional level of improvement. So it's up to you to determine how far you need to go to achieve a satisfying performance level.

LS400

Dave, it seems you have a pretty wide (not unlimited, but still fairly open) budget for the system upgrade.

For amplifiers (other than McIntosh), I would suggest looking into Arc Audio and Zapco (they make awesome amplifiers that are more SQ-orientated).

For a subwoofer, it can really range. I'd probably agree with retro's suggestion with the IDMAX 10" (if it can fit - need measurements). It is a clean and accurate subwoofer that can provide great levels of low end.

For more choices, I would also look at the Elemental Designs O subwoofers. Those are suited for IB setups and does very well overall (quality, low end, etc.).

You could always pull a "Percy" and go all out (Velodyne, Dynaudio, etc.).