What is the Best Free Air Subwoofers for the GS 10-12"
02-23-02, 09:54 AM
#31
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> Be sure to let us know the results!
I will. But I'll be replacing the tweeters and mid-woofers first. It'll be summer before I get around to the woofer.
As a newcomer to the list, I'd just like to thank everyone for posting so much useful info on here. It's a goldmine.
Stevie
I will. But I'll be replacing the tweeters and mid-woofers first. It'll be summer before I get around to the woofer.
As a newcomer to the list, I'd just like to thank everyone for posting so much useful info on here. It's a goldmine.
Stevie
02-23-02, 11:25 AM
#32
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Originally posted by stevie
I've been scouting through the driver catalogs for a replacement free air woofer and putting them through my box design program. The JL 101 computes well.
If you want to avoid the ubiquitious Chinese drivers or overpriced Eminence clones, you might like to consider the following.
Vifa M26WR-19-04. Available from Madisound for 89 dollars (from memory). You may not know Vifa, but they make their own drivers and are highly regarded in the speaker world. They are Danish, like Dynaudio. This driver computes perfectly for free air use.
Another one you might look at is the Focal 33F, if you'd like to go to 12 inch. This will increase your efficiency and maximum output by around 3dB. It has a slightly higher in-box Qtc; so might sound slightly less tight than the Vifa. It's also a lot more expensive. However, as Focal seem to have discontinued these, Zalytron are selling them at half-price for 212 dollars.
Focal also do a 10 inch version, which on paper has no obvious advantage over the Vifa, and is more expensive even at the sale price.
These are very high quality, cast chassis drivers from manufacturers who really know what they are doing.
Of course, if you want lots of chrome, bright red lettering on the dustcaps, blue foam surrounds, and lots of marketing hype, you have plenty of choice.
I would mention that, although I have quite a bit of practical experience with Focal and Vifa drivers, I have not heard these particular drivers installed in a car. But I plan to install the Vifa soon in my GS300.
Stevie
I've been scouting through the driver catalogs for a replacement free air woofer and putting them through my box design program. The JL 101 computes well.
If you want to avoid the ubiquitious Chinese drivers or overpriced Eminence clones, you might like to consider the following.
Vifa M26WR-19-04. Available from Madisound for 89 dollars (from memory). You may not know Vifa, but they make their own drivers and are highly regarded in the speaker world. They are Danish, like Dynaudio. This driver computes perfectly for free air use.
Another one you might look at is the Focal 33F, if you'd like to go to 12 inch. This will increase your efficiency and maximum output by around 3dB. It has a slightly higher in-box Qtc; so might sound slightly less tight than the Vifa. It's also a lot more expensive. However, as Focal seem to have discontinued these, Zalytron are selling them at half-price for 212 dollars.
Focal also do a 10 inch version, which on paper has no obvious advantage over the Vifa, and is more expensive even at the sale price.
These are very high quality, cast chassis drivers from manufacturers who really know what they are doing.
Of course, if you want lots of chrome, bright red lettering on the dustcaps, blue foam surrounds, and lots of marketing hype, you have plenty of choice.
I would mention that, although I have quite a bit of practical experience with Focal and Vifa drivers, I have not heard these particular drivers installed in a car. But I plan to install the Vifa soon in my GS300.
Stevie
Great info Stevie...(My name too)...I guess you take for granted all this knowledge once you've been on the board a while.
This Vifa driver seems quite pleasing at least cost wise. What amp would you recommend (wattage).
02-23-02, 01:19 PM
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http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...ID=46534&DID=7
Designed for auto sound applications, this woofer has everything to make a great subwoofer. This woofer shows typical Vifa rugged construction, featuring a treated paper cone, cast frame, rubber surround, and large magnet. Power handling should be great on this because of its large 2" voice coil, aluminum former, and large vented pole piece. The high Qts makes it great for infinite baffle or sealed box applications. * Power handling: 100 watts RMS/140 watts max * Voice coil diameter: 2" * Le: 0.86 mH * Impedance: 4 ohms * Re: 3.27 ohms * Frequency response: 35-2,000 Hz * Fs: 38.4 * SPL: 87.8 dB 1W1m * Vas: 2.31 cu. ft. * Qms: 4.89 * Qes: .92 * Qts: .77 * Xmax: 4 mm * Net weight: 6 lbs. * Dimensions: A: 10-3/4", B: 8-3/4", C: 4-1/8", D: 4-1/4".
$59....Great price...But doesn't seem to handle enuff power. 140 Watts is probably what our stock woofer can handle.
Im starting to lean towards the JL
Designed for auto sound applications, this woofer has everything to make a great subwoofer. This woofer shows typical Vifa rugged construction, featuring a treated paper cone, cast frame, rubber surround, and large magnet. Power handling should be great on this because of its large 2" voice coil, aluminum former, and large vented pole piece. The high Qts makes it great for infinite baffle or sealed box applications. * Power handling: 100 watts RMS/140 watts max * Voice coil diameter: 2" * Le: 0.86 mH * Impedance: 4 ohms * Re: 3.27 ohms * Frequency response: 35-2,000 Hz * Fs: 38.4 * SPL: 87.8 dB 1W1m * Vas: 2.31 cu. ft. * Qms: 4.89 * Qes: .92 * Qts: .77 * Xmax: 4 mm * Net weight: 6 lbs. * Dimensions: A: 10-3/4", B: 8-3/4", C: 4-1/8", D: 4-1/4".
$59....Great price...But doesn't seem to handle enuff power. 140 Watts is probably what our stock woofer can handle.
Im starting to lean towards the JL
02-23-02, 02:30 PM
#34
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I'll leave the amp recommendations to those in the know. I'm planning to keep the stock electronics, although I might be tempted to upgrade some of the amp components a la Percy at a later date.
I wouldn't be surprised if Vifa makes drivers for JL. They are a major player in the OEM speaker market, with an output of around 1.5 million drivers a year. They make some of their units available to audio enthusiasts purely as a sideline. Dynaudio used to do the same but stopped because there wasn't any money in it.
Most car audio people aren't aware that they even have a car audio line and they aren't available under the Vifa brand in any car audio store.
So don't be mislead by the price. With a well known car audio brand on it, this driver would sell for many times the price.
It's a bit like car parts. You can buy brake pads with Ferodo on them, or identical brake pads with a car manufacturer's name on for a much higher price.
Stevie
I wouldn't be surprised if Vifa makes drivers for JL. They are a major player in the OEM speaker market, with an output of around 1.5 million drivers a year. They make some of their units available to audio enthusiasts purely as a sideline. Dynaudio used to do the same but stopped because there wasn't any money in it.
Most car audio people aren't aware that they even have a car audio line and they aren't available under the Vifa brand in any car audio store.
So don't be mislead by the price. With a well known car audio brand on it, this driver would sell for many times the price.
It's a bit like car parts. You can buy brake pads with Ferodo on them, or identical brake pads with a car manufacturer's name on for a much higher price.
Stevie
02-23-02, 03:00 PM
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>$59....Great price...But doesn't seem to handle enuff power. 140 >Watts is probably what our stock woofer can handle
I'm sure Percy's book contains a few wise words on this subject. Without being able to physically power test, the best way to estimate a driver's power handling is from the voice coil size. Both the JL and the Vifa are 2 inches, which in my guesstimation would give a real-world power handling of around 150 watts.
The limiting factor in a free air installation is driver excursion at very low frequencies. The JL is marginally superior to the Vifa, although Sound Express have got the xmax wrong; it is actually 5.5mm.
However, the Vifa has an aluminium coil, voice coil venting and a cast chassis (a cast chassis is a major plus on a woofer). On paper it will handle more power than the JL and will have less power compression. Vifa also quote power handling strictly to IEC and DIN, because their specsheets are used by speaker designers. That's why their figures seem more modest.
I'm not trying to sell anything and I'm not knocking JL. But the original request was for alternatives to the JL in free air. At 59 bucks, this driver is an absolute steel. It is a more expensive driver to make than the JL and should cost more. The difference in price is down to distribution and marketing costs.
If you want serious SPLs from free air, you need a lot of cone area or very high excursion capability. I don't know any free air drivers with a very high xmax. Which means either a larger driver or multiple drivers. Personally, I'd be quite happy with the sound pressure level of a single ten, as long as the bass was tight and clean.
Stevie
I'm sure Percy's book contains a few wise words on this subject. Without being able to physically power test, the best way to estimate a driver's power handling is from the voice coil size. Both the JL and the Vifa are 2 inches, which in my guesstimation would give a real-world power handling of around 150 watts.
The limiting factor in a free air installation is driver excursion at very low frequencies. The JL is marginally superior to the Vifa, although Sound Express have got the xmax wrong; it is actually 5.5mm.
However, the Vifa has an aluminium coil, voice coil venting and a cast chassis (a cast chassis is a major plus on a woofer). On paper it will handle more power than the JL and will have less power compression. Vifa also quote power handling strictly to IEC and DIN, because their specsheets are used by speaker designers. That's why their figures seem more modest.
I'm not trying to sell anything and I'm not knocking JL. But the original request was for alternatives to the JL in free air. At 59 bucks, this driver is an absolute steel. It is a more expensive driver to make than the JL and should cost more. The difference in price is down to distribution and marketing costs.
If you want serious SPLs from free air, you need a lot of cone area or very high excursion capability. I don't know any free air drivers with a very high xmax. Which means either a larger driver or multiple drivers. Personally, I'd be quite happy with the sound pressure level of a single ten, as long as the bass was tight and clean.
Stevie
02-27-02, 06:32 PM
#36
Lexus Test Driver
Subs
Engin - The JL IB is an 8 ohm model ( like the Velo ). I originally used the IB with a RF 360a2 bridged on it & it woke the bass response up. The factory amp only puts out about 50-70 wrms to the sub ( which a wimpy Pioneer model ) so just changing the sub w/o changing the amp probably would be a step backwards. Retro like the ID series subs so that's a good recommendation. If ya want just a simple upgrade, Pioneer makes a decent free-air model that's 4 ohm as well. Focal ( my favorite brand ) designs their subs for SPL but they will work OK in a free-air configuration as long as U have some decent power on them. Downside to them is the cost. For a decent out-of-the-box sub which is readily available in most shops, the JL is hard to beat.
Stevie - Just be careful with the power on the W1 models. Their magnets aren't very large so they R decently efficient but not very durable when compared to the W3 series.
Stevie - Just be careful with the power on the W1 models. Their magnets aren't very large so they R decently efficient but not very durable when compared to the W3 series.
02-27-02, 08:38 PM
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STock Nak Ampp. which sub?
Alright. i figured I'd ask you tech. guys in here...
I have a '99 GS4 with Nak. I want to keep everything stock but just change the rear 10" sub. What are my best bets up to say $300? Also, by changing only the sub, and keeping the stock Nak. Amp, how much better sound will i get? Give me Your top TWO. (Value? ehh. I dont care. I just want a good speaker
)
Midnite
I have a '99 GS4 with Nak. I want to keep everything stock but just change the rear 10" sub. What are my best bets up to say $300? Also, by changing only the sub, and keeping the stock Nak. Amp, how much better sound will i get? Give me Your top TWO. (Value? ehh. I dont care. I just want a good speaker
)Midnite
02-27-02, 10:50 PM
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Re: Subs
Originally posted by Mean Gene
Engin - The JL IB is an 8 ohm model ( like the Velo ). I originally used the IB with a RF 360a2 bridged on it & it woke the bass response up. The factory amp only puts out about 50-70 wrms to the sub ( which a wimpy Pioneer model ) so just changing the sub w/o changing the amp probably would be a step backwards. Retro like the ID series subs so that's a good recommendation. If ya want just a simple upgrade, Pioneer makes a decent free-air model that's 4 ohm as well. Focal ( my favorite brand ) designs their subs for SPL but they will work OK in a free-air configuration as long as U have some decent power on them. Downside to them is the cost. For a decent out-of-the-box sub which is readily available in most shops, the JL is hard to beat.
Stevie - Just be careful with the power on the W1 models. Their magnets aren't very large so they R decently efficient but not very durable when compared to the W3 series.
Engin - The JL IB is an 8 ohm model ( like the Velo ). I originally used the IB with a RF 360a2 bridged on it & it woke the bass response up. The factory amp only puts out about 50-70 wrms to the sub ( which a wimpy Pioneer model ) so just changing the sub w/o changing the amp probably would be a step backwards. Retro like the ID series subs so that's a good recommendation. If ya want just a simple upgrade, Pioneer makes a decent free-air model that's 4 ohm as well. Focal ( my favorite brand ) designs their subs for SPL but they will work OK in a free-air configuration as long as U have some decent power on them. Downside to them is the cost. For a decent out-of-the-box sub which is readily available in most shops, the JL is hard to beat.
Stevie - Just be careful with the power on the W1 models. Their magnets aren't very large so they R decently efficient but not very durable when compared to the W3 series.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cg...tem=1334842064
02-28-02, 02:33 AM
#40
Lexus Test Driver
Ouch!
Engin - That box/amp combo will DEFINITELY drown out the rest of your system!! The L7 ( while not my favorite woofer ) will slam & gets loud. Unless U plan on changing out the rest of your speakers later ( still a good idea! ), I'd just look into the free -air route. Besides, that box will take up some trunk space ( don't know how important that is to ya? ).
Midnite - R U talking enclosure here or the same thing as Engin? I'd still stay with JL or ID for some sound quality from a free-air design. If U want more bass from the free-air, try Focal or even RF. Don't bother changing just the sub w/o upgrading the amp driving it. Even the Nak system only sends around 75-100 wrms to the subwoofer so then the factory amp will be holding back the sub ( especailly the JL due to it's 8 ohm impedance ). For prue SQ the only way to go is Velodyne ( it is servo-controlled for feedback ) but those R getting harder to find everyday. But even the Velo will perform better with more power. Remember that power buys U clarity, NOT volume & distortion kills more speakers than overpowering them.
Midnite - R U talking enclosure here or the same thing as Engin? I'd still stay with JL or ID for some sound quality from a free-air design. If U want more bass from the free-air, try Focal or even RF. Don't bother changing just the sub w/o upgrading the amp driving it. Even the Nak system only sends around 75-100 wrms to the subwoofer so then the factory amp will be holding back the sub ( especailly the JL due to it's 8 ohm impedance ). For prue SQ the only way to go is Velodyne ( it is servo-controlled for feedback ) but those R getting harder to find everyday. But even the Velo will perform better with more power. Remember that power buys U clarity, NOT volume & distortion kills more speakers than overpowering them.
02-28-02, 06:39 AM
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Don't make the mistake of using a speaker that's been designed for use in a reflex cabinet in a free air installation. Go for a free air design, or something that has been designed to work in a largish sealed box.
Stevie
Stevie
02-28-02, 09:02 AM
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I think I will go with the JL IB4...Now the question is, do I go 10" or 12" and with what amp? Mean Gean I know what you mean by drowning out the rest of my system, so I don't want to go nuts. But if the speaker is rated at 200 Watts, I'd rather run 250 just to have it run clean.
02-28-02, 08:55 PM
#43
Lexus Test Driver
Music tastes?
E - The choice between a 10" or 12" depends on your taste in music. Obviously the 12" will play lower so it's better suited for rap & other bass heavy music. The 10" is faster & yields itself better to jazz & any music with fast transients. The 12" IB4 will handle 125 wrms & a peak load of 250 watts while the 10" IB4 handles 100 wrms & 200 watts peak. U can go slightly higher than these figures because most musical peaks are very short in duration - it's not like the bass wave sweep on the USAC competition CD. Just remember that the IB series is an 8 ohm driver while most amps R rated into 4 ohms. I'm sure U know the old rule of thumb but I'll repeat it anyway ( hey, it's my job as a Moderator, I guess!!
) - anytime U double the impedance load, U cut the power in half as an amplifier is a reactive load piece of electronics; ie, it "reacts" to the load placed upon it. So if the amp is rated for 200 wrms in a total load of 4 ohms, it will only make 100 wrms on an 8 ohm speaker load but 400 wrms into 2 ohms. Since the IB series is SVC, unless U run a pair of them the wiring's straightforward into an 8 ohm mono load. As far as amps go, just stick with the name brands like RF, Precision Power, Kicker or Alpine. These won't break your budget & R easily found at most audio shops or online via www.crutchfield.com & other sites. The optimium amp for SQ would be a McIntosh but those are expensive & large ( but VERY clean! ). Choose well! 
) - anytime U double the impedance load, U cut the power in half as an amplifier is a reactive load piece of electronics; ie, it "reacts" to the load placed upon it. So if the amp is rated for 200 wrms in a total load of 4 ohms, it will only make 100 wrms on an 8 ohm speaker load but 400 wrms into 2 ohms. Since the IB series is SVC, unless U run a pair of them the wiring's straightforward into an 8 ohm mono load. As far as amps go, just stick with the name brands like RF, Precision Power, Kicker or Alpine. These won't break your budget & R easily found at most audio shops or online via www.crutchfield.com & other sites. The optimium amp for SQ would be a McIntosh but those are expensive & large ( but VERY clean! ). Choose well!
03-01-02, 08:41 AM
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Re: Music tastes?
Originally posted by Mean Gene
E - The choice between a 10" or 12" depends on your taste in music. Obviously the 12" will play lower so it's better suited for rap & other bass heavy music. The 10" is faster & yields itself better to jazz & any music with fast transients. The 12" IB4 will handle 125 wrms & a peak load of 250 watts while the 10" IB4 handles 100 wrms & 200 watts peak. U can go slightly higher than these figures because most musical peaks are very short in duration - it's not like the bass wave sweep on the USAC competition CD. Just remember that the IB series is an 8 ohm driver while most amps R rated into 4 ohms. I'm sure U know the old rule of thumb but I'll repeat it anyway ( hey, it's my job as a Moderator, I guess!! ) - anytime U double the impedance load, U cut the power in half as an amplifier is a reactive load piece of electronics; ie, it "reacts" to the load placed upon it. So if the amp is rated for 200 wrms in a total load of 4 ohms, it will only make 100 wrms on an 8 ohm speaker load but 400 wrms into 2 ohms. Since the IB series is SVC, unless U run a pair of them the wiring's straightforward into an 8 ohm mono load. As far as amps go, just stick with the name brands like RF, Precision Power, Kicker or Alpine. These won't break your budget & R easily found at most audio shops or online via www.crutchfield.com & other sites. The optimium amp for SQ would be a McIntosh but those are expensive & large ( but VERY clean! ). Choose well!
E - The choice between a 10" or 12" depends on your taste in music. Obviously the 12" will play lower so it's better suited for rap & other bass heavy music. The 10" is faster & yields itself better to jazz & any music with fast transients. The 12" IB4 will handle 125 wrms & a peak load of 250 watts while the 10" IB4 handles 100 wrms & 200 watts peak. U can go slightly higher than these figures because most musical peaks are very short in duration - it's not like the bass wave sweep on the USAC competition CD. Just remember that the IB series is an 8 ohm driver while most amps R rated into 4 ohms. I'm sure U know the old rule of thumb but I'll repeat it anyway ( hey, it's my job as a Moderator, I guess!!
) - anytime U double the impedance load, U cut the power in half as an amplifier is a reactive load piece of electronics; ie, it "reacts" to the load placed upon it. So if the amp is rated for 200 wrms in a total load of 4 ohms, it will only make 100 wrms on an 8 ohm speaker load but 400 wrms into 2 ohms. Since the IB series is SVC, unless U run a pair of them the wiring's straightforward into an 8 ohm mono load. As far as amps go, just stick with the name brands like RF, Precision Power, Kicker or Alpine. These won't break your budget & R easily found at most audio shops or online via www.crutchfield.com & other sites. The optimium amp for SQ would be a McIntosh but those are expensive & large ( but VERY clean! ). Choose well!
I forgot all about that impedance stuff, thanks . But isn't teh IB4 a dual voice coiled speaker....meaning I could wire them in series or parrallel
03-01-02, 06:49 PM
#45
Lexus Test Driver
SVC
E - The initials "SVC" that I used in my last response stand for "Single Voice Coil". FWIW - obviously then DVC is "Dual Voice Coil" ( for future reference ). Not trying to pick on ya because I'm sure that there R others out there who R just getting started in audio that will find these terms useful. So the IB series is a single voice coil of an 8 ohm impedance. There's always the option of bridging a 2 channel amp to get down to a 4 ohm load, however. U can go to the JL website for different configurations of wiring single & multiple IB's as well. have fun! www.jlaudio.com
www.jlaudio.com