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If that’s your primary goal, then I agree. Otherwise, I don’t feel they do anything else very well.
Check back in a couple years on how those interiors are holding up lol.
2013 viper GTS interior still practically new here, however the ones before 2013 were nasty. New gen stuff like the stang and camaro are now a LOT better than what they used to be
Nobody could ever convince me that a Ford/Chevy interior is better than any Lexus interior. I've owned several American cars and have never been impressed. Now the 18 models for Ford/Chevy might be a different story.
He has a facebook page called "F the Track." I so enjoyed getting daily, even hourly updates from him, and now, in a span of a few weeks I think he changed the page to "F Lexus," go figure
I've said this many times. The ISF and RCF are great cars, but out of the box, they are not great track cars. I don't think anyone who buys these cars is under the illusion that they are going to be breaking lap records. BTW, that goes for many other similar cars, like ATS-V's, M3/M4's, Porsche's (anything short of a latest 911, GT3, etc), all of these cars are great cars, but not great track cars.
and here is some more food for thought... I think that true track driving is about skill, not necessarily about power and theoretical lap times. The vast majority of drivers would crash the ZL1 without all the nannies saving your ***. With performance traction management, you can literally floor the 650hp ZL1 in a corner and nothing bad will happen.
So that said, a few little stories:
(1) I used to tune STi's for many years. When the EVO9 came out, we did a back-to-back gymkhana test comparing similarly tuned 2005 STi and EVO9. With a good amateur driver at the wheel, the EVO9 was 3 seconds faster. With a pro driver (former Formula 2 driver) the cars were even. The answer is simple... the mechanical diffs on the STi require a driver to have skill to maneuver the car... the EVO on the other hand uses a very advanced yaw a sensors and electronically controlled diffs that will get the car to turn and point wherever you steer it (much like the GTR). The computers are hard at work and literally compensate for bad driving! So which is a better car for the track? Depends on if you are trying to be a better driver or get a faster lap time...
(2) I was at NJMP track day chatting with the owner of Phoenix Performance. In case you guys don't know, Phoenix is a professional race team that runs vettes and 911's in Pirelli World Challange and other race series. The owner is also a pro driver who purchased a c7 Z06 for himself. He swears that he does not turn off PTM, because in his words everyone who does, even highly experienced drivers, inevitably crash.
Put this into perspective, a c7 Z06 has about 150hp more than the C6R Corvette that won Le Mans
So in the end of the day, if you are looking for a "true" track car, there are many very fast cars you can buy, like the ZL1, Z06, or GTR. But are they great track cars? What is the end game with these cars when their stability and traction systems are so incredibly advanced that they are literally doing a significant portion of the driving for you? The only thing they cant do yet is to correct a drivers steering inputs, and that is coming very soon as more and more cars are switching to completely autonomous electric steering, without any mechanical connection between the steering wheel and the wheels!
Soon you will be able to take your car to the track and put it into autonomous mode, then brag about your car's lap times, even though you weren't even in the car, lol
Anyway, just my opinion...
Rafi
Rafi, perfectly put there really isn't much more I cant add to your statement you hit the nail right on the head. Im 53 and like a few of us here I learned to drive my car before traction control, anti-lock brakes, stability control and all the other new high-tech nannies before AWD was on every other car, truck and suv when people new how to drive in snow. Every winter I see more SUV's with awd and in accidents, in ditches on side of the road than drive front wheel and rear wheel drive cars why over confidence in awd systems, and no driving skills. As cars have gotten smarter the people driving them have gotten dumber.
Where am i going with this power in itself is just portion of the equation all the tech that is currently being put into cars is great and all but for perfomance oriented cars is actually taking away some of the Driving Experience. Rafi put it perfectly it comes down to expectations and what the person is looking for are they looking to put down really fast laps or they looking for a great Driving Experience. Not saying that you can't have both but usually theres some sort of compromise or price to pay. Now I'm not saying I'm looking for the good old days of no power steering and disc drums hell no but I think everyone's pretty much gets what Im saying.
In the end there is only one really true track car and that's an actual race car in a race ,on a track, oh and maybe a Viper ACR (which is really just a race car anyways)
Jokes aside, there are a lot of great street cars you can take to the track , from a Civic to a regular Viper. I don't always get why people are so hell bent on getting into arguments about the ultimate "track day car". This isn't a race where every second counts, it's like Allen Iverson said, "practice, are we really talking about practice". A track day is meant to have fun, improve your skills and explore your car. In general, cars with some sort of handicap improve skill level, this can be power, weight, less capable from the factory. Sometimes, not always, a more capable car can hide driver errors and hinder progress.
Tammer I am sure you will have tons of fun with the ZL1, it's an awesome, capable car, that looks a little funny, too me at least , but I can never agree with you reaching the capabilities of the F, even your previous F it's it's current form (especially not using race pads,haha). In all my experience, as much as I have driven a car, I have always been able to find more in the car and if I can't, find another driver that can push my car faster than me (I am not Lewis Hamilton BTW). Nothing wrong with experiencing a more capable or different car though, it's still way to broaden your skills pallet.
Just have fun with the ZL1 because you have a new car to experience, getting to deep into who has the best "track day monster" is just a boatload of drama waiting to happen (maybe the intent). New "ultimate track day" cars come along every year and a quickly superseded and forgotten by new models , think about it, does anyone even talk about the previous gen ZL1 or Boss 302. What matters is there is always some guy/girl having fun and practicing on track even with their inferior old gen track toy, one day that car might even be a 2018 ZL1 and some other dude will be spouting about how much more awesome his high tech 14 speed electric motor autonomous track monster is "killin it" (Rafi's worst fear).
Rafi, perfectly put there really isn't much more I cant add to your statement you hit the nail right on the head. Im 53 and like a few of us here I learned to drive my car before traction control, anti-lock brakes, stability control and all the other new high-tech nannies before AWD was on every other car, truck and suv when people new how to drive in snow. Every winter I see more SUV's with awd and in accidents, in ditches on side of the road than drive front wheel and rear wheel drive cars why over confidence in awd systems, and no driving skills. As cars have gotten smarter the people driving them have gotten dumber.
I'm 6 years younger, but my formative driving years were under similar circumstances. I got my license late in the fall of '86 and my grandfather gave me his old '73 Pontiac Grandville (RWD, with a 455 cu.in. V8)... BTW, I grew up in Michigan, so I my first winter as a driver was quite a learning experience!!
Even with that kind of driving experience early on (plus MC experience - on & off road), I still managed to kiss the tire wall with my quarter panel at a track day back in Aug, because I was pushing a bit too hard (with TC turned off). Now, I'm willing to bet I'm a much better driver than the average HPDE enthusiast, but I'm sure I've still got plenty of improvement left to do with my IS-F.
18ABMR you said it yourself that you were drinking from Kool Aid, all you did now is switch flavors LOL Attachment 468640
V.S. Attachment 468641
I liked Tammer's enthusiasm. He didn't rub me the wrong way like some people on here. He loved his "F" and wanted to share in his happiness. Some people called it bragging but that stuff never bothered me. "To each his own". I enjoyed his "F" the track facebook page as well.
Just a few things, he likes the sound of his own voice, he tracks a stock ISF and expects to go fast, and 6.2 litre supercharged v 5litre of coarse its got more power and weight and the fuel economy is atrocious. But no doubt he will post his long videos on the Camaro forum. PLEASE enjoy your new car cheers.
Well, any chance we will ever see a real world battle of a supercharged ISF/RCF vs the ZL1 on a track? I would love to see what level of parity there is.
Hope you can afford to have a spare car with you at the track. At my last track day there was a z28 and a ZL1. I was talking to the guy with the ZL1 at the gas station in the morning and he said his car kept shutting off...15 times on the way to the track. The z28 was having issues as well midway through the day and they left.
In the end there is only one really true track car and that's an actual race car in a race ,on a track, oh and maybe a Viper ACR (which is really just a race car anyways)
Jokes aside, there are a lot of great street cars you can take to the track , from a Civic to a regular Viper. I don't always get why people are so hell bent on getting into arguments about the ultimate "track day car". This isn't a race where every second counts, it's like Allen Iverson said, "practice, are we really talking about practice". A track day is meant to have fun, improve your skills and explore your car. In general, cars with some sort of handicap improve skill level, this can be power, weight, less capable from the factory. Sometimes, not always, a more capable car can hide driver errors and hinder progress.
Tammer I am sure you will have tons of fun with the ZL1, it's an awesome, capable car, that looks a little funny, too me at least , but I can never agree with you reaching the capabilities of the F, even your previous F it's it's current form (especially not using race pads,haha). In all my experience, as much as I have driven a car, I have always been able to find more in the car and if I can't, find another driver that can push my car faster than me (I am not Lewis Hamilton BTW). Nothing wrong with experiencing a more capable or different car though, it's still way to broaden your skills pallet.
Just have fun with the ZL1 because you have a new car to experience, getting to deep into who has the best "track day monster" is just a boatload of drama waiting to happen (maybe the intent). New "ultimate track day" cars come along every year and a quickly superseded and forgotten by new models , think about it, does anyone even talk about the previous gen ZL1 or Boss 302. What matters is there is always some guy/girl having fun and practicing on track even with their inferior old gen track toy, one day that car might even be a 2018 ZL1 and some other dude will be spouting about how much more awesome his high tech 14 speed electric motor autonomous track monster is "killin it" (Rafi's worst fear).
Your right he did minor mods basically tires and LCA. He wanted to have power to charge down the back straights to chase down his competition, he wanted to be able to break late an exit early. Had he added headers exhaust and some minor suspension tweaks he could have greatly increased the capability of the car for around 4k, nearly same amount of money he put down on ZL1.
Here's things if he only put down 3k down on car that cost between $65k and $70k he's looking at a lease payment between $800 and $900 a month. That's roughly 10K a year. Thats RR Racing SC, which would put it very close to ZL1 numbers add some suspension components and you have a very competitive vehicle that can pretty much hang with many different cars out there and it's a one-time expense. Its his money and he can spend were he likes I just remember him saying how he couldn't justify spending 9k on a 10 year old car but spending over 30k in three years on a car that he doesn't own hey like i said its his money.
I am not hating on him, I like the ZL1 and when I retire in two more years ill be either picking up 2019 C8 Vette or CPO Porsche oh Im keeping my ISF. Just like several previous F owners that opted to try different platforms that we're more focused on performance look at all the guys who went to GTRs, Vettes and Porsches. Its just way he went about it you can criticize something but you don't have to be negative about it and he went from one extreme to the other in blink of an eye.
Yep who cares what he does with his money, I still don't know how a 6.5ft bloke with a helmet on ( and it must be a big one ) could Comfortably fit in a ISF in the first place, I'm 5.11 and 100KG,s of pure muscle and it is snug ( well maybe not so pure ) but I can do 100 metres in 1.5 seconds in my car
Here is one other thing.... Tammer talks about all the attention he gets in his ZL1 vs his 7 year old nearly stock ISF.
Ok, I *guarantee* you that if you show up at a typical track day in a Supercharged RCF or ISF, you will get more attention than in a ZL1.
Plus 8 months from now, a ZL1 will be as common sight as a Z06. Last track day there were like 10+ Z06's, and probably 30 vettes, and probably about 5-8 Camaros. Its like seeing minivans and SUV's at my son's school parking lot
BTW, I wonder how well his posts would go off on the Porsche or BMW forums... "I just sold my Porsche, and the ZL1 is so much better, blah blah blah..."
Anyway, i've said it before and I'll say it again... it goes without saying that we wish Tammer well with his new car.
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We Engineer Track Proven Upgrades For Your Lexus! SUPERCHARGERS : ECU TUNING : SUSPENSION : EXHAUST : PPE MASTER DEALER
Here's things if he only put down 3k down on car that cost between $65k and $70k he's looking at a lease payment between $800 and $900 a month. That's roughly 10K a year. Thats RR Racing SC, which would put it very close to ZL1 numbers add some suspension components and you have a very competitive vehicle that can pretty much hang with many different cars out there and it's a one-time expense. Its his money and he can spend were he likes I just remember him saying how he couldn't justify spending 9k on a 10 year old car but spending over 30k in three years on a car that he doesn't own hey like i said its his money.
Here is what you need in order to pretty much hang with or pass any car in HPDE Advanced groups, and still keep your ISF as a practical street car:
(1) Skill
(2) Great tires: like Michelin Pilot Cup 2's, Toyo R888's, etc
(3) Suspension upgrade, and ability to significantly increase camber (how do you think ILE package Camaro SS's get such great lap times... they are running R-comp tires and nearly 3deg negative camber).
(4) Basic bolt-ons for more power.
Rafi
__________________
We Engineer Track Proven Upgrades For Your Lexus! SUPERCHARGERS : ECU TUNING : SUSPENSION : EXHAUST : PPE MASTER DEALER
Yep who cares what he does with his money, I still don't know how a 6.5ft bloke with a helmet on ( and it must be a big one ) could Comfortably fit in a ISF in the first place, I'm 5.11 and 100KG,s of pure muscle and it is snug ( well maybe not so pure ) but I can do 100 metres in 1.5 seconds
Lies, people who lift don't do cardio. Ok fine, I'm the one that doesn't do any cardio.
10-26-17, 11:05 AM
