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This^^^^^^when I was looking for my ISF back in 2015 I was contemplating the E90 M3 and was doing research on it. When I found out that BMW (at the time) recommended 10W60 I was kind of surprised and called up Royal Purple (I've used their oil for years) and asked them if they had a 10W60 application for the M3 and they said they didn't, but they said that their 5W40 would work just fine and they thought that 10W60 was a little heavy for that motor and didn't know why BMW used such a heavy viscosity in that motor??...............
Long story short I bought the ISF instead but this made me think about it again.
Yeah even when I had my old E92 I was like "10w60? what?" but that was what they recommended. The way I understood it that was to help with the rod bearing clearance issue and that came about back in the E46 days. Just super thick oil, it poured out like pancake syrup. But as far as I know mine was still on original rod bearings still so its never all M3, just a small percent.
But as high rev as that motor was, I always drove it easy until it was at operating temp. Not to mention the car didn't act right when it was cold anyway. Just like the isf has the occasional shift flare when cold, the DCT did the same but on downshifts when it was cold. That car almost required to be at operating temp to be normal
Lobux, oil viscosity plays a pivotal role when talking about bearing clearance. Your statement isn’t entirely correct. Oil not at operating temp, aka more viscous, may not even under pressure be able to provide the necessary film that’s required to keep metal on metal contact. I’m pretty positive, among many others, that cold start shenanigans are a key cause of the issues. Especially since the issue can’t be traced to build date, model year, etc.
So yes, cold oil is in fact capable of causing rod bearing issues. It’s even stated in the BMW manual if I recall to not exceed RPM or specified load without proper oil temp.
Not in my experience. Viscosity when cold is much higher than viscosity when at temperature. Look at the data for any oil and it's pretty obvious oil is very thick when cold and is easily capable of maintaining clearance in a hydrodynamic bearing. The issue with cold oil is sliding surfaces like cams and rings. It's easy to score a cylinder wall when oil is cold. It's really hard to hurt a bearing when oil is cold. Bearings get damaged when oil is not present, or when load exceeds design capacity, or when side clearances are bad (which also means oil is not present). I've had rod bearing problems only when ignoring red line back in the day when that was a viable option, or when the oil moved to a part of the pan that the pick up could not reach.
You can score cylinders, scar cam lobes and rocker arms, scar cam caps in the head, and lots of other top end stuff by over-reving on cold oil, but you won't hurt the bearings. I have many, many air and water cooled engines in my past and at every rebuild I am a detective to determine what I need to change on the next build. Oiling problems are always on top of my list, and I have seen very few Japanese engines with bearing failures, and none that could be a result of cold cycle damage except when left to sit for a long time.
I do not recommend starting an engine in the winter time to let it idle and then shutting it off. Idling is the worst thing an engine does. There's almost no top end oil flow because first, the oil is thick, and second, the oil pump is at minimum speed and subsequently at minimum pressure. None of this is good for an engine. You are better off letting it sit and starting it once. Yes, it will incrementally wear the engine more than if you ran it daily. No, the amount of wear from this one start will not exceed the wear you will get if you start it once a month in the garage and let it idle until warm.
Chart borrowed from My350z. Notice the centistokes and how it drops dramatically as temperature increases. Also notice how little difference there is at any given temperature. The ideal is always 10 cSt when the oil is in service. See how ridiculously thick all of these oils are below 100F? As long as there is adequate flow, there is no way a hydrodynamic bearing designed for a 10 cSt oil is going to crush the film when the oil is cold.
Thanks MisterSkiz / Lobux. Fyi, I've never idled / free rev'd the car to warm it up, more so bringing it to operating temps with low / moderate RPM pedal control once I see the water & oil temp respond after start. This advice was given to me by a mechanic friend. This winter I'll leave it. All the other stuff - cleaning, air in tires, fuel stabilizer - I already do.
But wouldn’t the issue be raised that the cold viscous oil, although yes it can maintain a clearance, may in fact struggle to reach the bearing? Which starving a bearing of oil is what causes potential wear.
I mean if you look at the reported data. MY, track use, no track use, commuter miles, etc there’s zero pattern. Only consistent, is knowing that most people have likely ripped on their car prior to operating temp on an engine with tight bearing clearances designed at a specific temp. Which would include metallurgy expansion.
I'm saying it has not been my experience in the hundreds of engines I built and took apart later.
Bearing fit is critical. All the Japanese motorcycle companies provide a wide range of bearings in their parts systems and specify a fit within 0.0002" using plastigage to ensure correct clearance (count the zeroes, that's 2 ten thousandths, not 2 thou). Others have a single bearing shell size available, and what you get is anyone's guess (think classic Chevy small block). Lexus has six options for rod bearing size to ensure the fit is within spec. I have no direct experience with BMW's parts system, so I have no idea how many options they have for bearings, but the Japanese engines I have worked on all seem to be pretty adamant about getting the clearances exactly to spec. They also do not sell U/S (undersize) bearings because they typically nitride treat their cranks and if you grind them down, the nitriding goes away. It is a hardening process to ensure the crank is the last thing to be damaged in a bearing failure scenario. Their perspective is, if the crank is scored, you need a new one. Period.
Why BMW is experiencing bearing failures is a complete mystery outside of BMW. I really doubt it is cold cycle operation, because all the manufacturers have owners who ignore the admonitions about cold cycle red line, and not all the manufacturers are getting bad press on the Internet for rod/main bearing failures. I suspect stacked tolerances for exactly the reasons you say - no apparent pattern, seemingly as random as it gets. I have the same suspicion about the engine Rafi said blew up after getting supercharged with lots of track miles on it. One side of the engine had all four cylinders fail. That doesn't sound like a wear pattern to me, it sounds like a critical specification was just enough off of ideal to cause a problem under greater than design load. It happens. They're production engines, not blueprinted racing engines. If BMW says it's 0.003%, that really sounds like stacked tolerances to me...
I did not buy an ISF, but I did buy an RCF so maybe, it still probably is relevant to your question as it relates to M car. Initially, when I started looking for my new car, I had been aiming to get an E90 M3 sedan with M-DCT (so that wife can drive as well). The 4 doors really were appealing and I loved the engine noise. I wanted an N/A V8 that was high-revving. I drove the ISF (2011) also back about a year ago. Though, it was extremely impressive, I was leaning more towards the E90 M3 (2013 model year). I had a long extensive test drive of an E90 M3 with M-DCT courtesy of my office colleague's cousin and absolutely loved the car. Once I had found out, the RCF can fit a baby seat in the back very well, I started looking into an RCF as well. Both have high-revving, high-strung sonorous V8s. Once I got to drive the Lexus RCF, it became a no brainer. I loved the RCF even more than the E90 M3 sedan. Engine character wise, I would give them both a tie as both had very sharp throttle response, both revved high. RCF revved about a 1000 rpm lower than the M3, but RCF powerband is a lot more linear and broader as it starts pulling hard from 3500 rpm to 7300 - 7400 rpm. The M3 did not really start pulling hard till 6000 rpm.
When the right deal came along from a clublexus owner (Rage2) selling his very low mileage (8000 miles) RCF with carbon/TVD package, I jumped at the opportunity to purchase it. After having the car for three weeks, I am so glad I made this choice. Best of all, I will be able to keep my RCF practically forever. Also, my daughter in her baby seat really enjoys it.
If I were to do my "doug score" type thing, this is how it would break down in my RCF vs M3 driving experience:
Exterior - RCF hands down
Interior - RCF hands down
Technology - RCF
Engine noise - tie
Transmission - E90 M3 M-DCT(though, RCF Aisin unit is still damn good)
Throttle response (M mode and S+ mode): tie
Handling - Lexus RCF
Power/acceleration - Lexus RCF
Practicality - E90 M3
Quality, fit, finish - tie
Exhaust loudness - E90 M3 (RCF has lots of engine/induction noise, but muffled exhaust)
Durability, reliability - Lexus RCF
Conclusion: I want to keep this car for a very very long time so RCF was the no brainer. I will do subtle mods like catback exhaust etc over time. I never drove the M4 or the F30 M3 as I wanted an N/A high-revving V8 even if it was not the quickest. It feels so special that I don't care if it is not as quick as the M4.
Reliability was one of the main reasons I chose the F, I also liked the F's rarity, looks, and engine/exhaust sound. A friend of mine is a big M lover, they just don't do it for me, maybe if I was a track guy it would be different, doubt it though
Reliability aside, comparing M3 to F series is like comparing apple to orange. Some people don't care about reliability issues, they just drive what they want. Choosing what vehicle to drive is personal individual issue, IMO.
I've had almost every generation M3 and went from the E46 M3 > IS-F > E90 M3 > F80 M3 now
Any questions I'd be glad to help answer, shoot me a PM...
All great cars but each have it's small issues.....at end of day, try everything since variety is the spice of life
Love your M3 man. Do you recommend an extend warranty in buying a used F80? What was more fun to drive? M3 or IS-F? If buying an extended warranty on a used car through the manufacturer/dealer how old can the car be?
Love your M3 man. Do you recommend an extend warranty in buying a used F80? What was more fun to drive? M3 or IS-F? If buying an extended warranty on a used car through the manufacturer/dealer how old can the car be?
If you are talking about the F80 m3, the factory warranty should suffice, at least for me since I don't put many miles on the car with our SUV's and daily drivers. These cars only go out on nice days / weekends. As for aftermarket extended warranties, no idea that you will probably have to ask the dealer on limitations.
M3 is a 6-speed manual so it's by far one of the most fun to drive (only second to the NSX / s2000). Automatic cars are typically never much fun to drive. The IS-F make a great daily with it's smooth 8-speed auto.
The biggest drawbacks while owning the IS-F was:
a) Lack of 5 seats
b) Tiny trunk
c) No fold down rear seats
d) Limited leg room in back of the car
The F80 M3 is FASTER, more fun to drive, and has humongous space compared to the IS-F (it's roughly the size of the old 5-series). It basically does everything better than the IS-F except the exhaust note is no match to the IS-F with a JoeZ exhaust!
An F80 M3 with full interior recently ran into the 9's which is shockingly fast. The m3 is the leader in this category as it also handles, brakes, and overall is the best driver's car many years running. The predecessors, E30 M3, E36 M3 and E46 m3 are all legends in their own time. No I'm not a BMW fan-boy as I also love Honda and Lexus, etc. However you have to give credit where it's due and BMW has their act together in the M3 category.
I hate to stir the pot, but I am kind of a similar situation right now as the OP. However, I'm torn between a 2012 ISF and a 2014 RS5. I come from a good amount of performance cars (E92 M3 DCT, 2012 C63 and just sold a '17 Camaro SS 1LE) but I'm torn between an ISF from a member here and a RS5. It appears that OP has found what he's looking for, so I wanted to get a few opinions on my situation lol.
The RS5 and ISF are kind of similar in nature except the coupe vs. sedan options. This particular RS5 already has the VERY expensive (think $5k) Capristo exhaust, KW V3's coils, Euro spec headlights, Audicare up to 65k mile service, however it's about $7k more than the ISF I have my eyes on.
I really appreciate the post earlier about if you haven't owned either car then you can't really give much feedback on the situation. With that being said, I've only test drove a 2008 ISF years ago and LOVED how the exhaust valves opened up after a certain RPM to release that roar and researched how the 2011+ are the ones to get with the updates on various parts. The RS5 has a 4.2L 450HP V8 that revs to 8,500 RPM with the quick shifting DSG gearbox. Both cars get 16/23 MPG and I would be DD either car.
So with what I've shared about the RS5 and what all the expert ISF owners have experienced, what do you think? Did I give enough info to come to a conclusion? I'd love to hear your thoughts!
EDIT: Also test drove and considered a GT 350, F80 M3, Charger hellcat, another E92 M3 and Focus RS.
To touch on the cost of actually owning an E92 M3, I compiled together the rough cost that it took to own my M3 for 3 years/45K miles. All of the work was done myself unless stated otherwise:
Maintenace:
9 oil changes - $1350
2 diff fluid changes - $290
2 spark plug changes - $380
2 brake pad/fluid changes - $500
1 set of Michelin PSS - $1200
1 set of Continental Extreme Contact DW - $520 (close out price)
Repairs
Fuel leak detection pump - $90
Front left wheel hub/bearing/strut - $1600
Alternator #1 - $2000 (BMW dealership. Died on side of road)
Alternator #2 - $1800 (Independent shop)
Front left angel eye bulb X 2 - $30
Tail light - $5
Maintenance cost - $4240
Repair Total - $5575
Total - $9,815
So a decent chunk of change to keep the thing going. But here's the thing, there were other problems with the car when I traded it in. They were:
Blown speaker - $59
Both Throttle actuators were throwing codes - $1153
Idle control valve never worked, erratic idle after fill-ups. Would sometime idle itself off - $605
Broken Coil pack- $180
The differential would make loud clanking noises under deceleration. Was it broken or maybe the bushings were worn and it was flopping around? Who knows but a refurbished diff is $2500.
Will this be typical of any E9X M3? I don't know. I do know that the throttle actuators are definitely a very real issue that will most likely come into play on any M3, as is the idle control valve. The take away here is that if you buy one, be prepared for a big bill if anything happens. I did 90% of the work myself to save money, so if you're not handy with a wrench then be prepared to shell out more for labor.
Just saw this - did you buy the car NEW or USED?
I had ZERO problems with my E90 m3 that needed a repair of any kind. Of course everyone's results will differ based on how you drive the car and where you live (2 season or 4 season climate).
Maintenance costs are just a wash to me since no matter what cars you own, you will need to do basic stuff (tires, alignments, oil, gas, etc)....
There is a common mis-conception that a Ferrari oil change is $10k floating around somewhere on the internet. That is total BS ~ most modern Ferrari if bought new includes all services included just like BMW, Audi and many other companies. In other words you pay ZERO for maintenance or repairs.
If you are talking about buying used cars with mileage or abuse, then of course there is always RISK involved. I think for the OP it's important to discuss comparing apples to apples.
We all know Lexus IS super reliable, no disputing that. I had ZERO issues with my IS-F so OP can't go wrong choosing that or the M3 but please don't discount one car over the other from some random strangers opinions on a board. Go drive the car and decide for yourself.
^ +1
Drive both cars. I have both as I said in an earlier post. No issues in three years of ownership. I had a 2009 e92 as well for three years. No issues with that either. Dont discount the M3.
10-26-17, 11:01 AM
