Still have inner tire wear even with the USRS!
09-07-17, 02:13 AM
#31
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
Inner tire wear is usually from out of spec camber/toe. Even.01 deg can make a difference on the wear.
Also mind you, lexus designed the F to handle better so the OEM specs have more carmber than normal.
If you want absolutely no inner tire wear, get your camber and toe as close to zero but don't expect the car to handle as good from factory.
specs
USRS was designed to help with steering response, not to eliminate inner tire wear
hope that helps
Also mind you, lexus designed the F to handle better so the OEM specs have more carmber than normal.
If you want absolutely no inner tire wear, get your camber and toe as close to zero but don't expect the car to handle as good from factory.
specs
USRS was designed to help with steering response, not to eliminate inner tire wear
hope that helps
No, the USRS and the bushings sold by Figs were not designed to help with steering response. They are both designed to reduce toe changes under braking and acceleration. If you look at the video Figs shot of the OEM bushing responding to braking you can't miss it.
Last edited by lobuxracer; 09-07-17 at 02:20 AM.
09-07-17, 02:18 AM
#32
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
Your toe numbers are crap. Zero is not -0.05 and -0.01. That's toed out and will cause the wear you are experiencing. Your camber would be better if balanced, but it's not the issue here. What is concerning is, if you did balance the camber, your caster would be unbalanced.
09-07-17, 08:08 AM
#33
Caster is not a tire wearing item unless you spend your life in a parking lot. In states with crowned roads for rain runoff it is not uncommon to increase caster on the right side a full degree or more so they drive straight on crowned roads and may barely drift left on a flat road.
Camber will show some wear if excessive and the car is never pushed into the corners. These aren't bias ply tires with stiff sidewalls but wider section width tires will tell a story quickly.
The greater wear factors are pressure and toe. Too many neglect these and ruin tires from simply not paying attention. These cars having near equal weight distribution fore and aft leads some to running equal tire pressures in spite of door plate stickers and load ratings. Often times the rears have the center blown out from over inflation while the front loose their edges from under inflation. The key here is to get a solid starting point and monitor wear and by looking at the wear understand the difference between scrub wear, over/under inflation, and toe and camber wear. They can be read by looking at the tires. Sill plate values typically assume MAX load while in fact most of these cars run around with a single occupant.
Last comment on Caster, ever notice the crazy lean angle on the German cars while the wheels are turned? Some run 8 to 12° caster so they track at speed. That said a degree of difference means nothing to tire wear. Where the tires get slaughtered on these cars is the parking lot from excessive scrub from caster and toe out on turns. Remember the inner wheel has to turn sharper to complete a tight turn. Thus the parking lot can be a tire killer for those spending a lot of time there.
Camber will show some wear if excessive and the car is never pushed into the corners. These aren't bias ply tires with stiff sidewalls but wider section width tires will tell a story quickly.
The greater wear factors are pressure and toe. Too many neglect these and ruin tires from simply not paying attention. These cars having near equal weight distribution fore and aft leads some to running equal tire pressures in spite of door plate stickers and load ratings. Often times the rears have the center blown out from over inflation while the front loose their edges from under inflation. The key here is to get a solid starting point and monitor wear and by looking at the wear understand the difference between scrub wear, over/under inflation, and toe and camber wear. They can be read by looking at the tires. Sill plate values typically assume MAX load while in fact most of these cars run around with a single occupant.
Last comment on Caster, ever notice the crazy lean angle on the German cars while the wheels are turned? Some run 8 to 12° caster so they track at speed. That said a degree of difference means nothing to tire wear. Where the tires get slaughtered on these cars is the parking lot from excessive scrub from caster and toe out on turns. Remember the inner wheel has to turn sharper to complete a tight turn. Thus the parking lot can be a tire killer for those spending a lot of time there.
09-07-17, 01:39 PM
#34
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
Caster is not a tire wearing item unless you spend your life in a parking lot. In states with crowned roads for rain runoff it is not uncommon to increase caster on the right side a full degree or more so they drive straight on crowned roads and may barely drift left on a flat road.
Camber will show some wear if excessive and the car is never pushed into the corners. These aren't bias ply tires with stiff sidewalls but wider section width tires will tell a story quickly.
The greater wear factors are pressure and toe. Too many neglect these and ruin tires from simply not paying attention. These cars having near equal weight distribution fore and aft leads some to running equal tire pressures in spite of door plate stickers and load ratings. Often times the rears have the center blown out from over inflation while the front loose their edges from under inflation. The key here is to get a solid starting point and monitor wear and by looking at the wear understand the difference between scrub wear, over/under inflation, and toe and camber wear. They can be read by looking at the tires. Sill plate values typically assume MAX load while in fact most of these cars run around with a single occupant.
Last comment on Caster, ever notice the crazy lean angle on the German cars while the wheels are turned? Some run 8 to 12° caster so they track at speed. That said a degree of difference means nothing to tire wear. Where the tires get slaughtered on these cars is the parking lot from excessive scrub from caster and toe out on turns. Remember the inner wheel has to turn sharper to complete a tight turn. Thus the parking lot can be a tire killer for those spending a lot of time there.
Camber will show some wear if excessive and the car is never pushed into the corners. These aren't bias ply tires with stiff sidewalls but wider section width tires will tell a story quickly.
The greater wear factors are pressure and toe. Too many neglect these and ruin tires from simply not paying attention. These cars having near equal weight distribution fore and aft leads some to running equal tire pressures in spite of door plate stickers and load ratings. Often times the rears have the center blown out from over inflation while the front loose their edges from under inflation. The key here is to get a solid starting point and monitor wear and by looking at the wear understand the difference between scrub wear, over/under inflation, and toe and camber wear. They can be read by looking at the tires. Sill plate values typically assume MAX load while in fact most of these cars run around with a single occupant.
Last comment on Caster, ever notice the crazy lean angle on the German cars while the wheels are turned? Some run 8 to 12° caster so they track at speed. That said a degree of difference means nothing to tire wear. Where the tires get slaughtered on these cars is the parking lot from excessive scrub from caster and toe out on turns. Remember the inner wheel has to turn sharper to complete a tight turn. Thus the parking lot can be a tire killer for those spending a lot of time there.
09-07-17, 01:44 PM
#35
Pole Position
Thread Starter
Your toe numbers are crap. Zero is not -0.05 and -0.01. That's toed out and will cause the wear you are experiencing. Your camber would be better if balanced, but it's not the issue here. What is concerning is, if you did balance the camber, your caster would be unbalanced.
Last edited by Helo58; 09-07-17 at 01:47 PM.
09-07-17, 02:31 PM
#36
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
Toe is easily set to whatever you like. It does not impact caster or camber. Small differences in toe can make big differences in tire wear. If your alignment place sells tires, there's a bit of a conflict of interest in how they set up your alignment since wearing tires is a revenue generator for them, and they'll make excuses about how this is a performance car, or these cars are notorious for this, or whatever else excuse they can pawn off on the unsuspecting owner. The fact is, if you get the alignment right for the roads, tires, and driver; you'll get the wear you're willing to accept with the performance you have chosen. I am willing to accept some inside edge wear, but not what the factory delivers, and if you are on the OEM bushings, a really diligent tech will set you slightly toed-in because the dynamic toe on this car required a slight toe-in if you want the tires to wear evenly. The harder and more frequently you brake the more you need toe-in because the suspension toes out under braking by design with the factory bushings.
With the USRS, you should be able to set toe anywhere from zero to -0.4 on both sides and be OK with more edge wear as the number goes more negative. But the fact they adjusted it and it wasn't even balanced tells me the tech was just looking for green numbers and not looking at how to set up the car for you.
With the USRS, you should be able to set toe anywhere from zero to -0.4 on both sides and be OK with more edge wear as the number goes more negative. But the fact they adjusted it and it wasn't even balanced tells me the tech was just looking for green numbers and not looking at how to set up the car for you.
09-07-17, 03:01 PM
#37
I saw fore aft distribution but no, did not know left was heavier. The 350 is 52/48 the F 54/46 IIRC??
If left front is heavier, I would suggest dummy weight or rider in vehicle during alignment. Most shops will accommodate if asked. The caster is in the upper 8°, which is true of both cars...
It sounds like you have your wear issues resolved. How often does your vehicle get pushed through the corners?
My daily commute has just enough that it keeps the everything in check... I'll check the link later...
If left front is heavier, I would suggest dummy weight or rider in vehicle during alignment. Most shops will accommodate if asked. The caster is in the upper 8°, which is true of both cars...
It sounds like you have your wear issues resolved. How often does your vehicle get pushed through the corners?
My daily commute has just enough that it keeps the everything in check... I'll check the link later...
09-07-17, 03:16 PM
#38
Pole Position
Thread Starter
Toe is easily set to whatever you like. It does not impact caster or camber. Small differences in toe can make big differences in tire wear. If your alignment place sells tires, there's a bit of a conflict of interest in how they set up your alignment since wearing tires is a revenue generator for them, and they'll make excuses about how this is a performance car, or these cars are notorious for this, or whatever else excuse they can pawn off on the unsuspecting owner. The fact is, if you get the alignment right for the roads, tires, and driver; you'll get the wear you're willing to accept with the performance you have chosen. I am willing to accept some inside edge wear, but not what the factory delivers, and if you are on the OEM bushings, a really diligent tech will set you slightly toed-in because the dynamic toe on this car required a slight toe-in if you want the tires to wear evenly. The harder and more frequently you brake the more you need toe-in because the suspension toes out under braking by design with the factory bushings.
With the USRS, you should be able to set toe anywhere from zero to -0.4 on both sides and be OK with more edge wear as the number goes more negative. But the fact they adjusted it and it wasn't even balanced tells me the tech was just looking for green numbers and not looking at how to set up the car for you.
With the USRS, you should be able to set toe anywhere from zero to -0.4 on both sides and be OK with more edge wear as the number goes more negative. But the fact they adjusted it and it wasn't even balanced tells me the tech was just looking for green numbers and not looking at how to set up the car for you.
I drive like I rode my motorcycle, so I brake later and harder than most. I do have the USRS installed, so I'll start with the zero toe and door sill pressures. If my wear still occurs on the inner edge, I will try a slight toe in as I am not too concerned about turn-in response.
09-07-17, 03:27 PM
#39
To Lobuxracer's point; the frame and alignment shop I worked at did not sell tires and we had customers from the tire shops that didn't want to fix the issue, just set to spec and forget it (sell more tires). And ya, I learned how to read tires pretty well.
Nothing against them, but go with a small shop or at least one with a reputable owner and staff. We did a lot of exotic cars so it was fun. Well until you realized exotic car shook like it did because the loose nut behind the wheel did Bat-brake turns to promote a slide and b$itched about us being unable to balance tires properly... lol
Nothing against them, but go with a small shop or at least one with a reputable owner and staff. We did a lot of exotic cars so it was fun. Well until you realized exotic car shook like it did because the loose nut behind the wheel did Bat-brake turns to promote a slide and b$itched about us being unable to balance tires properly... lol
The following 2 users liked this post by 2013FSport:
Helo58 (09-07-17),
lobuxracer (09-12-17)
09-07-17, 04:09 PM
#40
Pole Position
Thread Starter
To Lobuxracer's point; the frame and alignment shop I worked at did not sell tires and we had customers from the tire shops that didn't want to fix the issue, just set to spec and forget it (sell more tires). And ya, I learned how to read tires pretty well.
Nothing against them, but go with a small shop or at least one with a reputable owner and staff. We did a lot of exotic cars so it was fun. Well until you realized exotic car shook like it did because the loose nut behind the wheel did Bat-brake turns to promote a slide and b$itched about us being unable to balance tires properly... lol
Nothing against them, but go with a small shop or at least one with a reputable owner and staff. We did a lot of exotic cars so it was fun. Well until you realized exotic car shook like it did because the loose nut behind the wheel did Bat-brake turns to promote a slide and b$itched about us being unable to balance tires properly... lol
09-07-17, 05:36 PM
#41
JM2C but you might be reading more into that than there is. Most are not pushing their car hard enough to notice loss of turn in from those numbers. And if you do push hard enough, you will be loosing tread for different reasons on a different place on those tires!
Everything from here down is for tread life.
You know the zero toe has not done you justice for tire life this far. I suggest you toe it in and try it. Remember repeatability is a huge deal here and 4 deciminal places out is not anything that is repeatable much less measurable on a DD with rubber bushings.... Meaning once all readings are taken and if I turn the wheels left and right and bounce on the suspension it is very likely that none of the numbers go back to where they were...
That said a vehicle that is in good shape should easily return to +/- 0.2° for camber roughly speaking +/-0.1° (6") for toe. The problem is the techs don't take the time to see if the vehicle and measurement system do this. Same example; bounce on the car 5x and get 5 readings. They don't have time. And this is with a vehicle with good bushings, ball joints, tie rods.... In short, tech time and set up matters, once it is close it is the fine tweaks that can make difference between getting 20 vs 40,000 from a DD tire set. What is funny about this statement is even a care with loose suspension can be set up to get fair mileage.
Now add in all the other variables about road surface, driver, vehicle usage, loading...
Everything from here down is for tread life.
You know the zero toe has not done you justice for tire life this far. I suggest you toe it in and try it. Remember repeatability is a huge deal here and 4 deciminal places out is not anything that is repeatable much less measurable on a DD with rubber bushings.... Meaning once all readings are taken and if I turn the wheels left and right and bounce on the suspension it is very likely that none of the numbers go back to where they were...
That said a vehicle that is in good shape should easily return to +/- 0.2° for camber roughly speaking +/-0.1° (6") for toe. The problem is the techs don't take the time to see if the vehicle and measurement system do this. Same example; bounce on the car 5x and get 5 readings. They don't have time. And this is with a vehicle with good bushings, ball joints, tie rods.... In short, tech time and set up matters, once it is close it is the fine tweaks that can make difference between getting 20 vs 40,000 from a DD tire set. What is funny about this statement is even a care with loose suspension can be set up to get fair mileage.
Now add in all the other variables about road surface, driver, vehicle usage, loading...
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lobuxracer (09-08-17)
09-07-17, 06:05 PM
#42
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
JM2C but you might be reading more into that than there is. Most are not pushing their car hard enough to notice loss of turn in from those numbers. And if you do push hard enough, you will be loosing tread for different reasons on a different place on those tires!
Everything from here down is for tread life.
You know the zero toe has not done you justice for tire life this far. I suggest you toe it in and try it. Remember repeatability is a huge deal here and 4 deciminal places out is not anything that is repeatable much less measurable on a DD with rubber bushings.... Meaning once all readings are taken and if I turn the wheels left and right and bounce on the suspension it is very likely that none of the numbers go back to where they were...
That said a vehicle that is in good shape should easily return to +/- 0.2° for camber roughly speaking +/-0.1° (6") for toe. The problem is the techs don't take the time to see if the vehicle and measurement system do this. Same example; bounce on the car 5x and get 5 readings. They don't have time. And this is with a vehicle with good bushings, ball joints, tie rods.... In short, tech time and set up matters, once it is close it is the fine tweaks that can make difference between getting 20 vs 40,000 from a DD tire set. What is funny about this statement is even a care with loose suspension can be set up to get fair mileage.
Now add in all the other variables about road surface, driver, vehicle usage, loading...
Everything from here down is for tread life.
You know the zero toe has not done you justice for tire life this far. I suggest you toe it in and try it. Remember repeatability is a huge deal here and 4 deciminal places out is not anything that is repeatable much less measurable on a DD with rubber bushings.... Meaning once all readings are taken and if I turn the wheels left and right and bounce on the suspension it is very likely that none of the numbers go back to where they were...
That said a vehicle that is in good shape should easily return to +/- 0.2° for camber roughly speaking +/-0.1° (6") for toe. The problem is the techs don't take the time to see if the vehicle and measurement system do this. Same example; bounce on the car 5x and get 5 readings. They don't have time. And this is with a vehicle with good bushings, ball joints, tie rods.... In short, tech time and set up matters, once it is close it is the fine tweaks that can make difference between getting 20 vs 40,000 from a DD tire set. What is funny about this statement is even a care with loose suspension can be set up to get fair mileage.
Now add in all the other variables about road surface, driver, vehicle usage, loading...
The following users liked this post:
2013FSport (09-07-17)
09-08-17, 07:04 AM
#44
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
Looks good for tire wear. Slight toe-in at the front will be less likely to wear the inside edges. It was seriously toed in initially. Were you having problems with inside edge wear before? With the initial numbers I see, you shouldn't have.
09-08-17, 07:24 AM
#45
Perhaps the bushing swap did that creating toe values that didn't previously exist. It does add caster so it changed toe.
Any chance the alignment As Found values are from before USRS install? I'd guess not. Just keep an eye on your tires and pressure and see how they do.
Edit: do the aftermarket USRS bushings come with the offset like the OEM? OEM, each side for both 250/350/F come with 0 offset and a + and - 20 offset. So 6 different part numbers total per chassis for that bushing.
What is interesting is the three listed above use the same lower arm but the F has a different PN rear bushing than X50 chassis. Like maybe the rubber is just a different durometer?
Adding to that (IIRC) the LCA X50 F-Sport is the same as the ISF stock... None F-Sport LCA spans X50 and GS chassis... The miracle of Where Used.... =D
Any chance the alignment As Found values are from before USRS install? I'd guess not. Just keep an eye on your tires and pressure and see how they do.
Edit: do the aftermarket USRS bushings come with the offset like the OEM? OEM, each side for both 250/350/F come with 0 offset and a + and - 20 offset. So 6 different part numbers total per chassis for that bushing.
What is interesting is the three listed above use the same lower arm but the F has a different PN rear bushing than X50 chassis. Like maybe the rubber is just a different durometer?
Adding to that (IIRC) the LCA X50 F-Sport is the same as the ISF stock... None F-Sport LCA spans X50 and GS chassis... The miracle of Where Used.... =D
Last edited by 2013FSport; 09-08-17 at 09:28 AM.