Carbotech Racing Pads
06-14-13, 11:37 AM
#16
Okay guys, sorry for the delay - I brought in the Carbotech family on this, my opinion does stagger from that of theirs in regards to what is going on with each car. I am more interested in helping you guys get your problems solved and for now, I have listed their opinions for now - They are, after all, the manufacturer so they get the first crack.
Car # 1
"I started running track with OEM pads and rotors, along with michelin pilot sport PS2 OEM tires. Car has a borla exhaust with no other mods. I never had an issue with braking, always stopped on the dime. However what would happen, is that the material OEM pads are made of is too soft causing them to let's say melt and destroy the rotor. This turned out to be a disaster, leading to the need of replacement of pads and rotors $$. So I called Carbotech and explained what was happening, and was recommended to use stock rotors with their pads. They also recommended that I swap pads in between track and daily driving. First time out on the track, I had brand new rotors and XP 12 front and XP10 rear, tire pressure was always maintained properly and had the issue of the car struggling really hard to stay in line under hard braking. Now I have Michelin pilot super sports, use the sane rotors and rotor surfaces are all smoothe, no imperfections noted. I tried stopping with OEM pads no issue at all, then swapped pads and the issue came back. Initially the first time i tracked the car everything including fluid was OEM. Then i used valvoline which exceeds dot 3 and 4. I do not see how that would affect the car making it go out of line when braking as it occurs at all times. Always get the pads warned up prior to driving or testing the brakes out. It seems as if too much bite at the front and not enough at the rear."
Questions:
Was the ABS engaging when trying to stay in line under hard braking?
When he says the car will not stay in line, is he talking about the front or rear? If the rear, is it fish tailing?
When he says "no issues at all with OEM pads, then swapped pads and the issue came back", what pads did he swap to? And when he swapped did he have clean rotors or was the OEM material on them?
He needs to get rid of that Valvoline brake fluid and run either Motul RBF600, Brembo LCF600, or Castrol SRF.
He also needs cooling ducts and stainless steel brake lines
Car # 2
Runs XP12s Front and XP10s Rear at all track events. Under hard braking uphill the rear gets light and wanders a little -
"I run stock rotors with XP12 front and XP10 rear. My "home" track is Carolina Motorsports Park, one of the hardest braking tracks in the Southeast. I run Brembo LCF brake fluid for its very high dry boiling point and solid feel when at high temperatures. DOT 3 and DOT 4 have little to do with brake fluid performance except to say it meets a minimum standard. 3 is not better than 4 and vice versa (unless you have an ancient Triumph with Girling brakes, then you absolutely must have DOT 4). The thing that is MOST important with the fluid is be sure it is fresh from a sealed container - this is far more important than the brand at almost every track."
"All the events I've done there were on Bridgestone RE050As. Cold pressure ended up at 32 psi, hot pressure was 44 psi (last track day). The rest of the car is bone stock down to the air filter."
"Every time I swap from street pads to race pads (I was running Carbotech Bobcats for street) I used the first couple of laps to bed the race pads. They're very aggressive and remove the Bobcat material pretty quickly. I drive home to Atlanta with the race pads installed (except the last track day because my weekend ended with less than 1mm of pad in the front) and swap to street pads when I get home."
"IMHO, initial bite on the 12's is unacceptable for street use. The wife definitely does not find the ride home much fun if there's traffic. If I were to change anything, I'd consider going to 8's in the rear because I can't change the bias to stop the rear end from moving around, and the two places at CMP where this is critical are both bad places to spin a car - not a lot of room for error."
Questions:
When the rear end is moving around does it feeling like it's being pushed around, or like it being pulled around? Does the ABS system engage during this?
44psi is too high when hot. He needs to start lower (28psi or so) so he can end up around 38-40psi when hot. This could help this situation.
He needs cooling ducts and SS braided lines as well.
Car #3
Performance Mods are: PPE Headers, Joe Z I/E, aFe Pro Dry S Filter, BCR's with Swift 16/12K, Sikky sway, Tom's chassis bracing & shock tower bar, Figs: Mega arms, Toe/Rear upper links, bushings, 2-Piece rotors, Carbotech XP12/8, ISS RMI Scoops, TSW 18's/Nitto NT01's (275/35/18's)
Also using ATE racing Blue brake fluid...
"when I have experience similiar situations as the Car #1, IIRC it seems as the front of the car seems to dart erratically from side to side and not that the rear of the car "gets loose" and moves... I will pay better attention next time and report back."
Questions/comments:
Side to side is NOT a brake pad issue. It's a brake balance/booster/prop valve or suspension/alignment issue. After reading all his mods I would lean towards the suspension and/or alignment. (This I do agree somewhat with).
With all these mods and the Nitto's he might want to run our XP20 up front and XP10 on the rear.
Car # 1
"I started running track with OEM pads and rotors, along with michelin pilot sport PS2 OEM tires. Car has a borla exhaust with no other mods. I never had an issue with braking, always stopped on the dime. However what would happen, is that the material OEM pads are made of is too soft causing them to let's say melt and destroy the rotor. This turned out to be a disaster, leading to the need of replacement of pads and rotors $$. So I called Carbotech and explained what was happening, and was recommended to use stock rotors with their pads. They also recommended that I swap pads in between track and daily driving. First time out on the track, I had brand new rotors and XP 12 front and XP10 rear, tire pressure was always maintained properly and had the issue of the car struggling really hard to stay in line under hard braking. Now I have Michelin pilot super sports, use the sane rotors and rotor surfaces are all smoothe, no imperfections noted. I tried stopping with OEM pads no issue at all, then swapped pads and the issue came back. Initially the first time i tracked the car everything including fluid was OEM. Then i used valvoline which exceeds dot 3 and 4. I do not see how that would affect the car making it go out of line when braking as it occurs at all times. Always get the pads warned up prior to driving or testing the brakes out. It seems as if too much bite at the front and not enough at the rear."
Questions:
Was the ABS engaging when trying to stay in line under hard braking?
When he says the car will not stay in line, is he talking about the front or rear? If the rear, is it fish tailing?
When he says "no issues at all with OEM pads, then swapped pads and the issue came back", what pads did he swap to? And when he swapped did he have clean rotors or was the OEM material on them?
He needs to get rid of that Valvoline brake fluid and run either Motul RBF600, Brembo LCF600, or Castrol SRF.
He also needs cooling ducts and stainless steel brake lines
Car # 2
Runs XP12s Front and XP10s Rear at all track events. Under hard braking uphill the rear gets light and wanders a little -
"I run stock rotors with XP12 front and XP10 rear. My "home" track is Carolina Motorsports Park, one of the hardest braking tracks in the Southeast. I run Brembo LCF brake fluid for its very high dry boiling point and solid feel when at high temperatures. DOT 3 and DOT 4 have little to do with brake fluid performance except to say it meets a minimum standard. 3 is not better than 4 and vice versa (unless you have an ancient Triumph with Girling brakes, then you absolutely must have DOT 4). The thing that is MOST important with the fluid is be sure it is fresh from a sealed container - this is far more important than the brand at almost every track."
"All the events I've done there were on Bridgestone RE050As. Cold pressure ended up at 32 psi, hot pressure was 44 psi (last track day). The rest of the car is bone stock down to the air filter."
"Every time I swap from street pads to race pads (I was running Carbotech Bobcats for street) I used the first couple of laps to bed the race pads. They're very aggressive and remove the Bobcat material pretty quickly. I drive home to Atlanta with the race pads installed (except the last track day because my weekend ended with less than 1mm of pad in the front) and swap to street pads when I get home."
"IMHO, initial bite on the 12's is unacceptable for street use. The wife definitely does not find the ride home much fun if there's traffic. If I were to change anything, I'd consider going to 8's in the rear because I can't change the bias to stop the rear end from moving around, and the two places at CMP where this is critical are both bad places to spin a car - not a lot of room for error."
Questions:
When the rear end is moving around does it feeling like it's being pushed around, or like it being pulled around? Does the ABS system engage during this?
44psi is too high when hot. He needs to start lower (28psi or so) so he can end up around 38-40psi when hot. This could help this situation.
He needs cooling ducts and SS braided lines as well.
Car #3
Performance Mods are: PPE Headers, Joe Z I/E, aFe Pro Dry S Filter, BCR's with Swift 16/12K, Sikky sway, Tom's chassis bracing & shock tower bar, Figs: Mega arms, Toe/Rear upper links, bushings, 2-Piece rotors, Carbotech XP12/8, ISS RMI Scoops, TSW 18's/Nitto NT01's (275/35/18's)
Also using ATE racing Blue brake fluid...
"when I have experience similiar situations as the Car #1, IIRC it seems as the front of the car seems to dart erratically from side to side and not that the rear of the car "gets loose" and moves... I will pay better attention next time and report back."
Questions/comments:
Side to side is NOT a brake pad issue. It's a brake balance/booster/prop valve or suspension/alignment issue. After reading all his mods I would lean towards the suspension and/or alignment. (This I do agree somewhat with).
With all these mods and the Nitto's he might want to run our XP20 up front and XP10 on the rear.
Last edited by SpeedFreaksUSA; 06-14-13 at 11:41 AM.
06-14-13, 03:08 PM
#17
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That's funny. Multiple instructors at CMP have recommended 44 psi hot, and the car works just fine. Braided stainless lines are a waste of money. I've put them on lots of things (I've built them myself from Aeroquip parts) and they never made any difference in feel or performance that I could measure. They sure do look cool compared to rubber, but they have their own issues including a catastrophic failure mode rubber lines don't have. Ducting would be the only thing I could see making a significant difference.
06-14-13, 05:18 PM
#18
That's funny. Multiple instructors at CMP have recommended 44 psi hot, and the car works just fine. Braided stainless lines are a waste of money. I've put them on lots of things (I've built them myself from Aeroquip parts) and they never made any difference in feel or performance that I could measure. They sure do look cool compared to rubber, but they have their own issues including a catastrophic failure mode rubber lines don't have. Ducting would be the only thing I could see making a significant difference.
I do want to point out that pressure is a correlation to the weight of the vehicle, and on the RS4 (for example) we have our customers run 44 psi on Dunlop ZIIs. So you are not that far off base, but I would have to be with an IS-F on those tires to provide any feedback with regards to that tire and pressure.
As far as SS lines, on the S2000 chassis - for example - we do have problems with swelling and heat exposure from the front brakes, it's not unusual for the OEM lines to simply blow off/apart at threshold braking with the amount of radiating heat they are exposed to (also a relationship in regards to the age of the lines). Nearly every other track weekend 1-2 S2000s on OEM lines have a come to jesus moment and go through a mad scramble to find replacements for them. Be that as it may, I have heard no complaints in regards to OEM lines from IS-F owners.
06-18-13, 12:29 AM
#19
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Was the ABS engaging when trying to stay in line under hard braking? No very rarely does ABS engage.
When he says the car will not stay in line, is he talking about the front or rear? If the rear, is it fish tailing? Under hard braking car pulls to the right or left not both at once. For example if you r going in a straight Line and very slowly slightly go to the right and press the brakes car will pull hard to the right. Very difficult to explain.
When he says "no issues at all with OEM pads, then swapped pads and the issue came back", what pads did he swap to? And when he swapped did he have clean rotors or was the OEM material on them? Rotors were clean, and I swapped the pads to factory and drove on the same track same conditions same line and had zero issues.
He needs to get rid of that Valvoline brake fluid and run either Motul RBF600, Brembo LCF600, or Castrol SRF.
He also needs cooling ducts and stainless steel brake lines
This all is not needed because if they were an issue I would of had this problem regardless of what pads I ran on the car. However OEM had no issues. Honestly besides this pulling issues with carbotech pads, I had no brake fade at all and I did a lot of braking. I think running front XP 10 and rear XP 8 is what I am going to try next Time, 12 is to over bias and I feel is what's causing the car to get upset under hard braking.
When he says the car will not stay in line, is he talking about the front or rear? If the rear, is it fish tailing? Under hard braking car pulls to the right or left not both at once. For example if you r going in a straight Line and very slowly slightly go to the right and press the brakes car will pull hard to the right. Very difficult to explain.
When he says "no issues at all with OEM pads, then swapped pads and the issue came back", what pads did he swap to? And when he swapped did he have clean rotors or was the OEM material on them? Rotors were clean, and I swapped the pads to factory and drove on the same track same conditions same line and had zero issues.
He needs to get rid of that Valvoline brake fluid and run either Motul RBF600, Brembo LCF600, or Castrol SRF.
He also needs cooling ducts and stainless steel brake lines
This all is not needed because if they were an issue I would of had this problem regardless of what pads I ran on the car. However OEM had no issues. Honestly besides this pulling issues with carbotech pads, I had no brake fade at all and I did a lot of braking. I think running front XP 10 and rear XP 8 is what I am going to try next Time, 12 is to over bias and I feel is what's causing the car to get upset under hard braking.
06-18-13, 04:55 PM
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Car #3
Performance Mods are: PPE Headers, Joe Z I/E, aFe Pro Dry S Filter, BCR's with Swift 16/12K, Sikky sway, Tom's chassis bracing & shock tower bar, Figs: Mega arms, Toe/Rear upper links, bushings, 2-Piece rotors, Carbotech XP12/8, ISS RMI Scoops, TSW 18's/Nitto NT01's (275/35/18's)
Also using ATE racing Blue brake fluid...
"when I have experience similiar situations as the Car #1, IIRC it seems as the front of the car seems to dart erratically from side to side and not that the rear of the car "gets loose" and moves... I will pay better attention next time and report back."
Questions/comments:
Side to side is NOT a brake pad issue. It's a brake balance/booster/prop valve or suspension/alignment issue. After reading all his mods I would lean towards the suspension and/or alignment. (This I do agree somewhat with).
With all these mods and the Nitto's he might want to run our XP20 up front and XP10 on the rear.
Performance Mods are: PPE Headers, Joe Z I/E, aFe Pro Dry S Filter, BCR's with Swift 16/12K, Sikky sway, Tom's chassis bracing & shock tower bar, Figs: Mega arms, Toe/Rear upper links, bushings, 2-Piece rotors, Carbotech XP12/8, ISS RMI Scoops, TSW 18's/Nitto NT01's (275/35/18's)
Also using ATE racing Blue brake fluid...
"when I have experience similiar situations as the Car #1, IIRC it seems as the front of the car seems to dart erratically from side to side and not that the rear of the car "gets loose" and moves... I will pay better attention next time and report back."
Questions/comments:
Side to side is NOT a brake pad issue. It's a brake balance/booster/prop valve or suspension/alignment issue. After reading all his mods I would lean towards the suspension and/or alignment. (This I do agree somewhat with).
With all these mods and the Nitto's he might want to run our XP20 up front and XP10 on the rear.
please excuse my ignorance, but what do these terms mean? "brake balance/booster/prop valve "
06-19-13, 09:53 AM
#21
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It's confusion about Toyota's brake balancing technology. There is no proportioning valve in our cars, only an electronic control called EBFD - Electronic Brake Force Distribution - which decides how much braking force goes to what wheels. Balance refers to the ratio of force front to rear, and a proper race car has a balance bar used to adjust the front to rear bias. The driver usually has the ability to adjust this on track as this changes as the fuel tank gets lighter over time.
I've never heard of a booster issue causing this kind of problem. A booster problem is normally when your brakes suddenly get much harder to apply because the vacuum assist is no longer working. I've heard of autocrossers having this problem, but never road racers.
I am not impressed with EBFD. I didn't like it at all in my Scion tC, and I don't like it much in the F. I understand how it works in principle, and I can see how it could be incredibly effective from an engineering perspective, but the implementation by Toyota (IME) isn't nearly as great as the concept. A lot like the electronic LSD - yes, I know it works, but if it doesn't engage until 15 mph, it does no good on launch which is where most of us would like it to work best. EBFD strikes me the same way - I would expect with all the inputs VDIM has - including yaw and pitch - the EBFD would know when you are braking hard uphill and would accurately change balance to accommodate what should happen. Unfortunately, it doesn't.
Back to the OP - the real issue is the car does not brake with stability using the pads Carbotech sent you. I would really like to know if the problem moves when you swap pads from one side to the other. Since Carbotech's racing pads are hand made, there is a small possibility they got different compounds left to right.. If the problem moves, it's the pads. If it doesn't move, it's something else.
I've never heard of a booster issue causing this kind of problem. A booster problem is normally when your brakes suddenly get much harder to apply because the vacuum assist is no longer working. I've heard of autocrossers having this problem, but never road racers.
I am not impressed with EBFD. I didn't like it at all in my Scion tC, and I don't like it much in the F. I understand how it works in principle, and I can see how it could be incredibly effective from an engineering perspective, but the implementation by Toyota (IME) isn't nearly as great as the concept. A lot like the electronic LSD - yes, I know it works, but if it doesn't engage until 15 mph, it does no good on launch which is where most of us would like it to work best. EBFD strikes me the same way - I would expect with all the inputs VDIM has - including yaw and pitch - the EBFD would know when you are braking hard uphill and would accurately change balance to accommodate what should happen. Unfortunately, it doesn't.
Back to the OP - the real issue is the car does not brake with stability using the pads Carbotech sent you. I would really like to know if the problem moves when you swap pads from one side to the other. Since Carbotech's racing pads are hand made, there is a small possibility they got different compounds left to right.. If the problem moves, it's the pads. If it doesn't move, it's something else.
06-19-13, 02:21 PM
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Excellent post thanks. I thought of that being a possibility, just didn't think a reputable company would not inspect the brake pads carefully to insure that this problem does not exist. Almost got into an accident today. Going to switch pads and see if the problem still exists, what should I do if that's the case? I also thought maybe its to much bite at the front and not enough at the back allowing the rear to rotate more lol I honestly don't even know what to do. I just want this issue solved. I am going to contact carbotech and speak to them, ill send these back and get a replacement of XP 10 for front see if that will solve the issue.
06-19-13, 02:24 PM
#23
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If the problem moves when you switch them, call Mike at Carbotech and talk to him. They're pretty reasonable people and I've never had any issue with them as a company. Mistakes can happen even at the best companies, it's how they deal with them that separates the good from the not good.
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