C&D Comparo: IS-F vs. M3 Sedan
04-03-08, 05:01 AM
#32
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I don't agree with several of the points.
Features/amenities: 8/10 ISF/BMW
Other than the manual trans., what does the BMW have that the ISF doesn't?
Fit/finish: 9/10 ISF/BMW Are you kidding me?
Interior styling: 8/9 ISF/BMW Are you kidding me?
Rebates: 0/1 ISF/BMW Since when did they give rebates a score and how does it make a better car?
Fuel economy: 5/5 ISF/BMW LOL! This one I'll never understand.
Gotta have it: 19/22 ISF/BMW. ISF= 30,000 inits M3= 100,000 units. Is there no exclusivity or desirability for the ISF?
Features/amenities: 8/10 ISF/BMW
Other than the manual trans., what does the BMW have that the ISF doesn't?
Fit/finish: 9/10 ISF/BMW Are you kidding me?
Interior styling: 8/9 ISF/BMW Are you kidding me?
Rebates: 0/1 ISF/BMW Since when did they give rebates a score and how does it make a better car?
Fuel economy: 5/5 ISF/BMW LOL! This one I'll never understand.
Gotta have it: 19/22 ISF/BMW. ISF= 30,000 inits M3= 100,000 units. Is there no exclusivity or desirability for the ISF?
04-03-08, 06:25 AM
#33
Well this is a performance-sports-4seater category. You can't build a performance-sports-4seater with a slushbox and then cry wolf specially when they heard same thumbs down for IS350. What is it with Lexus and slushbox anyway? Does their customer survey tells them no Lexus customer can shift manual gearbox? Why can they offer 6MT?
Although that's the projection number of full production run, still that's 100000 people saying I gotta have M3 and 30000 people saying I gotta have IS-F. Seems to me the score should've been 19/63 or 7/22 not 19/22
Although that's the projection number of full production run, still that's 100000 people saying I gotta have M3 and 30000 people saying I gotta have IS-F. Seems to me the score should've been 19/63 or 7/22 not 19/22
04-03-08, 08:07 AM
#34
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Would they keep the 8 Speed if they went to a manual. That would be tedious shifting through 8 gears.
If they went to a 6 speed, do you think the fuel economy would drop a lot b/c arent the last 2 gears mostly for just saving gas?
How would that work?
If they went to a 6 speed, do you think the fuel economy would drop a lot b/c arent the last 2 gears mostly for just saving gas?
How would that work?
04-03-08, 08:36 AM
#35
There is no need for 8 unless your engine is 19K rpm redline F1 engine. 6 Will do.
04-03-08, 09:14 AM
#36
Pole Position
Well this is a performance-sports-4seater category. You can't build a performance-sports-4seater with a slushbox and then cry wolf specially when they heard same thumbs down for IS350. What is it with Lexus and slushbox anyway? Does their customer survey tells them no Lexus customer can shift manual gearbox? Why can they offer 6MT?
04-03-08, 10:16 AM
#37
Let's see... a real LSD. Electronic Damping Control. Lower weight. Flat torque-high rpm engine mated to a real gearbox/soon to come dual clutch gearbox. And to me what matters most, will go around a track faster.
04-03-08, 10:16 AM
#38
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Well this is a performance-sports-4seater category. You can't build a performance-sports-4seater with a slushbox and then cry wolf specially when they heard same thumbs down for IS350. What is it with Lexus and slushbox anyway? Does their customer survey tells them no Lexus customer can shift manual gearbox? Why can they offer 6MT?
Although that's the projection number of full production run, still that's 100000 people saying I gotta have M3 and 30000 people saying I gotta have IS-F. Seems to me the score should've been 19/63 or 7/22 not 19/22
Although that's the projection number of full production run, still that's 100000 people saying I gotta have M3 and 30000 people saying I gotta have IS-F. Seems to me the score should've been 19/63 or 7/22 not 19/22
Unless the ISF is continuously spinning it's tires when accelerating (which it isn't), putting wider tires on will do nothing but slow it down due to increased rotational mass. It may help slighly from a dig, but that's where the advantage ends when speaking in terms of acceleration.
IS-F puts down a lot more torque to the ground than the M3 so rotational mass is not that big an issue anyways, especially if the IS-F is traction limited.
Wheel spin has also been noted from a stop.
Putting slightly wider (and lower profile) tires on the IS-F would solve most of these criticisms.
M3 (from C&D specs) has
F: 245/35ZR-19
R: 265/35ZR-19
IS-F has
F: 225/40ZR-19
R: 245/35ZR-19
The M3's front tires are as wide as the IS-F's rear tires. Also the IS-F's fronts are 40 series while M3 has 35 series fronts.
If you put the same tire setup on the M3 as the IS-F, I can guarantee the M3 wouldn't feel as planted nor would it pull as hard.
I'm quite sure the IS-F wouldn't slow down with wider tires. It definitely seems traction limited. The wider tires would also help with stability and confidence when pushing the car to the limit.
To compare, the LS460 has 235 tires all around, and LS460L has 245 in the rear. The LS is heavier and makes less power than the IS-F, so the IS-F definitely needs wider tires. Wheel spin also has a negative effect on fuel economy.
Last edited by TRDFantasy; 04-03-08 at 10:22 AM.
04-03-08, 10:29 AM
#40
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Did you not read the article? C&D absolutely loved the 8 speed in the IS-F, so that's not a point of criticism.
Same can be said of the M3 technically, but why then does it have wider tires than the IS-F? Several reviews have mentioned that the IS-F doesn't feel as "planted" as the M3 or C63 and that at high speeds the IS-F tends to have some wheel spin and other reviews have mentioned it tends to slide a bit at high speeds.
IS-F puts down a lot more torque to the ground than the M3 so rotational mass is not that big an issue anyways, especially if the IS-F is traction limited.
Wheel spin has also been noted from a stop.
Putting slightly wider (and lower profile) tires on the IS-F would solve most of these criticisms.
M3 (from C&D specs) has
F: 245/35ZR-19
R: 265/35ZR-19
IS-F has
F: 225/40ZR-19
R: 245/35ZR-19
The M3's front tires are as wide as the IS-F's rear tires. Also the IS-F's fronts are 40 series while M3 has 35 series fronts.
If you put the same tire setup on the M3 as the IS-F, I can guarantee the M3 wouldn't feel as planted nor would it pull as hard.
I'm quite sure the IS-F wouldn't slow down with wider tires. It definitely seems traction limited. The wider tires would also help with stability and confidence when pushing the car to the limit.
Same can be said of the M3 technically, but why then does it have wider tires than the IS-F? Several reviews have mentioned that the IS-F doesn't feel as "planted" as the M3 or C63 and that at high speeds the IS-F tends to have some wheel spin and other reviews have mentioned it tends to slide a bit at high speeds.
IS-F puts down a lot more torque to the ground than the M3 so rotational mass is not that big an issue anyways, especially if the IS-F is traction limited.
Wheel spin has also been noted from a stop.
Putting slightly wider (and lower profile) tires on the IS-F would solve most of these criticisms.
M3 (from C&D specs) has
F: 245/35ZR-19
R: 265/35ZR-19
IS-F has
F: 225/40ZR-19
R: 245/35ZR-19
The M3's front tires are as wide as the IS-F's rear tires. Also the IS-F's fronts are 40 series while M3 has 35 series fronts.
If you put the same tire setup on the M3 as the IS-F, I can guarantee the M3 wouldn't feel as planted nor would it pull as hard.
I'm quite sure the IS-F wouldn't slow down with wider tires. It definitely seems traction limited. The wider tires would also help with stability and confidence when pushing the car to the limit.
The ISF is very competitive but it is beatable by cars in it's own class, and that's something you'll have to accept. Wider tires is not the answer, you are not smarter than the engineers who put this car together. If it were really that simple, that's how the car would come.
You're absolutly right, if the M3 had IS-F tires it would not handle as good as it does. This goes back to what I was saying, balance and the engineers know what they're doing, especailly BMW enginners when it comes to handling. That does not automatically mean that putting M3 tires on the IS-F will automatically make it handle better. It may or may not, it depends on how the chassis responds. It certainly won't make it pull any harder.
Last edited by Ramon; 04-03-08 at 10:32 AM.
04-03-08, 10:44 AM
#41
Pole Position
The with of the tires have nothing to do with pull dude, yes they can help with handling but it's all about balance. Simply putting wider tires on a car does not automatically give you better handling. It all depends on what works best with the chassis. BMW has been in the game a long time and they know what works with their chassis. What works for BMW will not necessarily work for Lexus. Again, putting M3 tires on the IS-F is NOT going to make it pull harder, it just won't, plain and simple. The torque on the ISF is not exceeding the grip levels of the rear tires once the car is in motion so all you will do is SLOW the car down becuase of added weight. This is the way it is, stop ignoring facts becuase you're a Lexus fan and stop with the "if the ISF had this and the ISF had that it would pull harder" becuase you're soundign quite pathetic. It doens't matter why the M3 handles better, the fact is it DOES. "IF" the ISF had 800HP it would probably beat a Viper, but it doens't, so it can't.
The ISF is very competitive but it is beatable by cars in it's own class, and that's something you'll have to accept. Wider tires is not the answer, you are not smarter than the engineers who put this car together. If it were really that simple, that's how the car would come.
You're absolutly right, if the M3 had IS-F tires it would not handle as good as it does. This goes back to what I was saying, balance and the engineers know what they're doing, especailly BMW enginners when it comes to handling. That does not automatically mean that putting M3 tires on the IS-F will automatically make it handle better. It may or may not, it depends on how the chassis responds. It certainly won't make it pull any harder.
The ISF is very competitive but it is beatable by cars in it's own class, and that's something you'll have to accept. Wider tires is not the answer, you are not smarter than the engineers who put this car together. If it were really that simple, that's how the car would come.
You're absolutly right, if the M3 had IS-F tires it would not handle as good as it does. This goes back to what I was saying, balance and the engineers know what they're doing, especailly BMW enginners when it comes to handling. That does not automatically mean that putting M3 tires on the IS-F will automatically make it handle better. It may or may not, it depends on how the chassis responds. It certainly won't make it pull any harder.
"The front wheels measure 19 x 8J, with 225/40R19 tires and 19 x 9J in the rear, with 255/35R19 tires. Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 and Bridgestone Potenza models were each developed specifically for the 168-mph capabilities of the Lexus IS F. Design parameters called for handling grip befitting a premium sports car but with the control and ride quality expected for a Lexus in this class."
04-03-08, 11:34 AM
#43
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I agree with most of what you say but the fact is, Lexus DID compromise a little handling for a little luxury. As quoted from the Lexus web site.
"The front wheels measure 19 x 8J, with 225/40R19 tires and 19 x 9J in the rear, with 255/35R19 tires. Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 and Bridgestone Potenza models were each developed specifically for the 168-mph capabilities of the Lexus IS F. Design parameters called for handling grip befitting a premium sports car but with the control and ride quality expected for a Lexus in this class."
"The front wheels measure 19 x 8J, with 225/40R19 tires and 19 x 9J in the rear, with 255/35R19 tires. Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 and Bridgestone Potenza models were each developed specifically for the 168-mph capabilities of the Lexus IS F. Design parameters called for handling grip befitting a premium sports car but with the control and ride quality expected for a Lexus in this class."
It all depends on perspective.
The fact of the matter is that short of a Formula 1 car, every car compromises a bit something. The cars are what they are.
04-03-08, 05:04 PM
#44
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I would like to see the same test of the M3 with the SMG trans. Not saying that the outcome would be different, but it might be closer. (or farther apart)
What I have got from the magazine tests is that they like the M3 better on the track and the ISF better on the street. Both cars are very, very close. Skip
What I have got from the magazine tests is that they like the M3 better on the track and the ISF better on the street. Both cars are very, very close. Skip
04-03-08, 05:11 PM
#45
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The with of the tires have nothing to do with pull dude, yes they can help with handling but it's all about balance. Simply putting wider tires on a car does not automatically give you better handling. It all depends on what works best with the chassis. BMW has been in the game a long time and they know what works with their chassis. What works for BMW will not necessarily work for Lexus. Again, putting M3 tires on the IS-F is NOT going to make it pull harder, it just won't, plain and simple. The torque on the ISF is not exceeding the grip levels of the rear tires once the car is in motion so all you will do is SLOW the car down becuase of added weight. This is the way it is, stop ignoring facts becuase you're a Lexus fan and stop with the "if the ISF had this and the ISF had that it would pull harder" becuase you're soundign quite pathetic. It doens't matter why the M3 handles better, the fact is it DOES. "IF" the ISF had 800HP it would probably beat a Viper, but it doens't, so it can't.
The ISF is very competitive but it is beatable by cars in it's own class, and that's something you'll have to accept. Wider tires is not the answer, you are not smarter than the engineers who put this car together. If it were really that simple, that's how the car would come.
You're absolutly right, if the M3 had IS-F tires it would not handle as good as it does. This goes back to what I was saying, balance and the engineers know what they're doing, especailly BMW enginners when it comes to handling. That does not automatically mean that putting M3 tires on the IS-F will automatically make it handle better. It may or may not, it depends on how the chassis responds. It certainly won't make it pull any harder.
The ISF is very competitive but it is beatable by cars in it's own class, and that's something you'll have to accept. Wider tires is not the answer, you are not smarter than the engineers who put this car together. If it were really that simple, that's how the car would come.
You're absolutly right, if the M3 had IS-F tires it would not handle as good as it does. This goes back to what I was saying, balance and the engineers know what they're doing, especailly BMW enginners when it comes to handling. That does not automatically mean that putting M3 tires on the IS-F will automatically make it handle better. It may or may not, it depends on how the chassis responds. It certainly won't make it pull any harder.
The FACTS are that C&D noticed wheelspin at high speeds on one of the front tires. Other magazines noticed the IS-F slides around a little bit at high speeds, and another review noticed wheel spin from a stop. You can talk all you want about that it's not the tires and it's a chassis problem. The fact remains, wheel spin indicates SOME sort of traction problem, and traction problems are usually associated with the tires more than the chassis or anything else.
Calling me pathetic really gives you a lot of credibility, keep it up
.