Why on earth should I buy an IS-F?
01-15-08, 05:41 PM
#32
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Exactly my point. These are all simply technological advances, many of which improve performance. I have no problem with people who prefer manuals; in fact, I give and have always given tremendous respect to BMW for offering manual transmissions across their product line. However, artificially inducing technologically-inferior equipment in order to distinguish one's own skill is laughable.
01-15-08, 09:11 PM
#33
There's a certain "price range" where once you go beyond that, it's like pennies. I see America has having four classes really. The poor, the "middle class", a blurry "upper middle" class, and then rich/uber-rich (yes, Bill Gates). The poor will buy used vehicles (CPO) for $10K or less, wishing they could buy a nice good car. The middle class will buy the vanilla mobiles (Camry, Accord, Malibu) for the $15-$25 category. the upper middle class will buy the fully load vanilla mobiles or dive into the luxury makes (Lexus, Cadillac, etc.) but buy the lower end models (ES, IS, perhaps GS). Then there is that "range" I was talking about which is probably in the $55K+. At this point, only the rich and uber-rich would even realistically consider vehicles like LS, M5, 760, etc.. Also, at this "level" in society, they tend to buy on brand loyalty, rather than price. The Beemer dude will always buy the M3 with his money for the "performance", the Lexus guy will always quote Lexus reliability, and then the rebels will get the Nissan GT-R and kick both the M3 and IS-F.
My definitions based on annual family income (gross), with home mortgage:
poor - $50K or less
middle - $50K-150K
upper middle $150K-200K
rich - $500K+
I know, what happened to $200-500k? there are none in between to make significant difference...
My definitions based on annual family income (gross), with home mortgage:
poor - $50K or less
middle - $50K-150K
upper middle $150K-200K
rich - $500K+
I know, what happened to $200-500k? there are none in between to make significant difference...
01-15-08, 10:05 PM
#35
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I'm not sure why everyone has this idea that the "heel and toe" work involved with a manual makes the driving experience more exciting. I can agree that it makes it more challenging, but not that it makes it more exciting. Going fast is exciting no matter what kind of transmission the car is equipped with. I personally love manual transmissions, but I wouldn't want to drive a car with a manual transmission everyday in the kind of traffic I have to deal with. Fun for weekend outings on country roads, but not for the daily grind, IMO.
words from a true enthusiast and a real man. 
A manual driver has to work his 2 feet with 3 pedals all at the same time while 1 hand on steering wheel and the other for shifting yet perfecting the entry and exit... that takes skill.
an auto driver... 2 hands firmly on the steering wheel, blip paddle to downshift.. how exicting is that? that is like NASCAR drivers turning left all day long.
A manual driver has to work his 2 feet with 3 pedals all at the same time while 1 hand on steering wheel and the other for shifting yet perfecting the entry and exit... that takes skill.
an auto driver... 2 hands firmly on the steering wheel, blip paddle to downshift.. how exicting is that? that is like NASCAR drivers turning left all day long.
01-15-08, 10:58 PM
#36
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I'm not sure why everyone has this idea that the "heel and toe" work involved with a manual makes the driving experience more exciting. I can agree that it makes it more challenging, but not that it makes it more exciting. Going fast is exciting no matter what kind of transmission the car is equipped with. I personally love manual transmissions, but I wouldn't want to drive a car with a manual transmission everyday in the kind of traffic I have to deal with. Fun for weekend outings on country roads, but not for the daily grind, IMO.
01-16-08, 08:32 AM
#37
Pole Position
I wanted to quote this for perpetuity, just because I love how people have to invent artificial hardship in order to attempt to distinguish themselves from others or look down on them. I mean, gosh, real men and skilled drivers use cars that don't have power steering, leather seats, speakers, A/C, or windshields. Obviously. 
I went back and re-read my post and nowhere in my response above did I say that I'm better than anyone else. Moreover, I certainly didn't mean to say that I look down on anyone.
My point was simply this... I prefer to drive a true manual transmission. I take joy in executing a perfect rev matched downshift and a smooth up shift. I realize that a computer can and likely does do a better/quicker job than I can ever do but that's not the point. At least not for me.
01-16-08, 06:18 PM
#39
*** sets
01-17-08, 08:43 PM
#41
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Sorry for being absent from this thread for a few days- I was out of town on business with no access to "unauthorized sites."
But I must say that I agree with Da Hapa and others who have argued for the virtues of rowing your own gears and not letting a computer do your work for you. If all you wanted to do was go fast, neither the IS-F nor the M3 would be the best idea (get a Fox Body Mustang and put another $5k into it!). However, with my money on the line, I think I would have to choose the M3 in this segment. I would put in my order and wait for my car to come as I specced it, rather than just take a car that was laying on the lot with $10k worth of options that I didn't want. I had expected that the M3 would outperform the IS, but the IS would come in $10k cheaper, but it looks like the price will be a wash (assuming you don't go nuts with the options). Of course I know that the Lexus will come with more standard options, and it will be more comfortable and reliable, but I just feel like the M3 will be the better car in the segment. Again, I don't want to sound like a BMW fanboi. I am not a blind brand loyalist- I have had almost 50 Lexi, and I didn't buy them just because they were Lexus cars- I bought them because in every instance I thought that they were better than every other car in their market segment. However, I just feel like BMW outdid Lexus on this one...
But I must say that I agree with Da Hapa and others who have argued for the virtues of rowing your own gears and not letting a computer do your work for you. If all you wanted to do was go fast, neither the IS-F nor the M3 would be the best idea (get a Fox Body Mustang and put another $5k into it!). However, with my money on the line, I think I would have to choose the M3 in this segment. I would put in my order and wait for my car to come as I specced it, rather than just take a car that was laying on the lot with $10k worth of options that I didn't want. I had expected that the M3 would outperform the IS, but the IS would come in $10k cheaper, but it looks like the price will be a wash (assuming you don't go nuts with the options). Of course I know that the Lexus will come with more standard options, and it will be more comfortable and reliable, but I just feel like the M3 will be the better car in the segment. Again, I don't want to sound like a BMW fanboi. I am not a blind brand loyalist- I have had almost 50 Lexi, and I didn't buy them just because they were Lexus cars- I bought them because in every instance I thought that they were better than every other car in their market segment. However, I just feel like BMW outdid Lexus on this one...
01-17-08, 10:44 PM
#42
Sorry for being absent from this thread for a few days- I was out of town on business with no access to "unauthorized sites."
But I must say that I agree with Da Hapa and others who have argued for the virtues of rowing your own gears and not letting a computer do your work for you. If all you wanted to do was go fast, neither the IS-F nor the M3 would be the best idea (get a Fox Body Mustang and put another $5k into it!). However, with my money on the line, I think I would have to choose the M3 in this segment. I would put in my order and wait for my car to come as I specced it, rather than just take a car that was laying on the lot with $10k worth of options that I didn't want. I had expected that the M3 would outperform the IS, but the IS would come in $10k cheaper, but it looks like the price will be a wash (assuming you don't go nuts with the options). Of course I know that the Lexus will come with more standard options, and it will be more comfortable and reliable, but I just feel like the M3 will be the better car in the segment. Again, I don't want to sound like a BMW fanboi. I am not a blind brand loyalist- I have had almost 50 Lexi, and I didn't buy them just because they were Lexus cars- I bought them because in every instance I thought that they were better than every other car in their market segment. However, I just feel like BMW outdid Lexus on this one...
But I must say that I agree with Da Hapa and others who have argued for the virtues of rowing your own gears and not letting a computer do your work for you. If all you wanted to do was go fast, neither the IS-F nor the M3 would be the best idea (get a Fox Body Mustang and put another $5k into it!). However, with my money on the line, I think I would have to choose the M3 in this segment. I would put in my order and wait for my car to come as I specced it, rather than just take a car that was laying on the lot with $10k worth of options that I didn't want. I had expected that the M3 would outperform the IS, but the IS would come in $10k cheaper, but it looks like the price will be a wash (assuming you don't go nuts with the options). Of course I know that the Lexus will come with more standard options, and it will be more comfortable and reliable, but I just feel like the M3 will be the better car in the segment. Again, I don't want to sound like a BMW fanboi. I am not a blind brand loyalist- I have had almost 50 Lexi, and I didn't buy them just because they were Lexus cars- I bought them because in every instance I thought that they were better than every other car in their market segment. However, I just feel like BMW outdid Lexus on this one...
01-18-08, 02:07 PM
#45
Lexus Test Driver
That's not going to matter very much. The 2009 CTS-V is going to outhandle the BMW M5, be softer riding due to the magnetic suspension, and be a bit quicker - high 11s in the quarter mile. And that's stock. Unfortunately, the IS-F isn't going to be in the same performance league as the new CTS-V. The outgoing model, yes, but not the new one.